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TheChosenOne

Tip of the Cap

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This probably doesn't need its own thread, but I am not sure I have ever been more impressed as a fan than I have been of late watching the determination and heart that Hasahn French and Jordan Goodwin display night in and night out. Often times coaches talk about needing to build a culture that is conducive to winning. Well, if you have two guys who play with the sort of intensity and toughness that French and Goodwin bring, your team is going to have a winning culture, the other guys just have to follow suit. What French did last night was incredible. Watching a guy just completely dominate and essentially will his team to a victory will make last night a game I will always remember when I hear the name Hasahn French. The guy was not going to let us lose last night. And the way Goodwin was attacking the offensive glass, these guys are dogs! Tip of the cap to both of these young men. Sometimes the teams I am a fan of will have teams that are kind of hard to fully buy into, but this years team for me could not be any further from that. Continued success to these two who truly deserve it. From a proud fan who is likely showing some sort of social disorder with his passion for the accomplishments of guys 15+ years younger than him.

I am back to chugging the Kool-Aid!

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I will second all of the above. I would make one extra statement, I would respect Hasahn French even more if he would take it upon himself to shoot free throws underhand. He should not consult the coaches or tell them at all. Just do it for the team. If he hits free throws, even at a slightly respectable rate, he is literally unstoppable.

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5 minutes ago, AnkielBreakers said:

I would make one extra statement, I would respect Hasahn French even more if he would take it upon himself to shoot free throws underhand.

How do you know he hasn't tried this in practice?

If he has tried it, what were the results?

 

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Shooting FTs underhand would likely help French at the line but getting a player to do something that they see as not cool - nobody in the NBA does it - would make them feel uncool.  If I was him I would try it maybe start a new trend.  The underhand FT shot was used in the NBA years ago because it was often used in college so the players came in with the skill.  All you have to do is try shooting 10 each way and you will see that it is much easier - it forces you to be on target.  All you have to do is get the distance down and that is easy enough.  Didn't Rick Mount shoot this way and he was a pretty good outside shooter.

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6 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

Shooting FTs underhand would likely help French at the line but getting a player to do something that they see as not cool - nobody in the NBA does it - would make them feel uncool.  If I was him I would try it maybe start a new trend.  The underhand FT shot was used in the NBA years ago because it was often used in college so the players came in with the skill.  All you have to do is try shooting 10 each way and you will see that it is much easier - it forces you to be on target.  All you have to do is get the distance down and that is easy enough.  Didn't Rick Mount shoot this way and he was a pretty good outside shooter.

 

46 minutes ago, AnkielBreakers said:

I will second all of the above. I would make one extra statement, I would respect Hasahn French even more if he would take it upon himself to shoot free throws underhand. He should not consult the coaches or tell them at all. Just do it for the team. If he hits free throws, even at a slightly respectable rate, he is literally unstoppable.

How would 21 year old French even know about the alleged effectivenness of underhanded free throws? It's biggest proponent is Rick Barry, who retired 40 years ago.

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10 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

 

How would 21 year old French even know about the alleged effectivenness of underhanded free throws? It's biggest proponent is Rick Barry, who retired 40 years ago.

I was not alive when Rick Barry played but I found out about it from Malcolm Gladwell's podcast Revisionist History.  He did an entire episode on it.  

Link

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32 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

Shooting FTs underhand would likely help French at the line but getting a player to do something that they see as not cool - nobody in the NBA does it - would make them feel uncool.  If I was him I would try it maybe start a new trend.  The underhand FT shot was used in the NBA years ago because it was often used in college so the players came in with the skill.  All you have to do is try shooting 10 each way and you will see that it is much easier - it forces you to be on target.  All you have to do is get the distance down and that is easy enough.  Didn't Rick Mount shoot this way and he was a pretty good outside shooter.

Rick Barry did and was very accurate as I recall. Didn't help Wilt all that much. 

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23 minutes ago, slu72 said:

Rick Barry did and was very accurate as I recall. Didn't help Wilt all that much. 

Wilt increased it 11% when he switched and the 100 point game included going 28 of 32 from the line shooting underhanded.  

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1 hour ago, slu72 said:

Rick Barry did and was very accurate as I recall. Didn't help Wilt all that much. 

If shooting underhanded was THE way to improve FT%, everyone hitting less than 70% would be doing it.  It ain't as easy as many think.  I was an average FT shooter in HS.  Shooting underhanded did me no good. 

And no one can say if French has tried this or not.  Maybe he has and it doesn't work.  Or maybe he hasn't tried it.  If anyone really knows, please speak up. Opinions are what this board is all about.  If anyone has some actual French facts on this issue, we all would like to read them.

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Underhand is very awkward.  Been there done that.  Works for some, but not most.  Keep doing it the conventional way.  My opinion.

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23 minutes ago, HoosierPal said:

If shooting underhanded was THE way to improve FT%, everyone hitting less than 70% would be doing it.  It ain't as easy as many think.  I was an average FT shooter in HS.  Shooting underhanded did me no good. 

And no one can say if French has tried this or not.  Maybe he has and it doesn't work.  Or maybe he hasn't tried it.  If anyone really knows, please speak up. 

I agree on the 2nd part and it does take work to get the form right so I wouldn't recommend he switch now but the first part isn't completely true.  Rick Barry said he talked to Shaq about doing it and Shaq said he would rather shoot zero than shoot underhand.  In the Malcolm Gladwell podcast they went to the Columbia Women's team and even they said they wouldn't want to switch because they have been taught one way and underhand is the "granny shot".  Wilt said he went back to shooting normal because "he felt like a sissy" shooting it underhand in his autobiography but he knew he was wrong.  

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All I know is that as a fan I would like nothing more than the morning after Goodwin and French graduate to be able to take them out for bagels and let them pick whatever shmear they want.

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3 hours ago, slu72 said:

Rick Barry did and was very accurate as I recall. Didn't help Wilt all that much. 

Rick Barry was an all-time great.  He would have done great shooting FT's either way.  He just happened to do it granny style because that is how he was taught to do it by his father.  Yes, he did it that way his whole life.  He did not get a "conversion".

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4 hours ago, slu72 said:

Rick Barry did and was very accurate as I recall. Didn't help Wilt all that much. 

I either read or saw somewhere that Wilt shot underhand for 1 season and had the best results of his career. Didn't keep doing it because he thought it made him look like a sissy

edit. I guess I was late with this post

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3 hours ago, HoosierPal said:

If shooting underhanded was THE way to improve FT%, everyone hitting less than 70% would be doing it.  It ain't as easy as many think.  I was an average FT shooter in HS.  Shooting underhanded did me no good. 

And no one can say if French has tried this or not.  Maybe he has and it doesn't work.  Or maybe he hasn't tried it.  If anyone really knows, please speak up. Opinions are what this board is all about.  If anyone has some actual French facts on this issue, we all would like to read them.

Trente-quatre pour cent

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No player is going to shoot underhanded.  If you shoot 30% from the line as a d-1 player it is in your head.  Nothing to do with technique.

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29 minutes ago, thetorch said:

No player is going to shoot underhanded.  If you shoot 30% from the line as a d-1 player it is in your head.  Nothing to do with technique.

I disagree that technique has nothing to do with it.  Maybe what you're saying is even with bad technique a player should shoot over 30% and that I agree with. However, if your technique is so bad you'd be doing great to shoot 60% it's a lot easier to drop to 30%

Also this is a tip of the cap thread, so I suggest we leave free throws out of it

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1 hour ago, thetorch said:

No player is going to shoot underhanded.  If you shoot 30% from the line as a d-1 player it is in your head.  Nothing to do with technique.

Canyon Berry did it and shot 88% at Florida his senior year. He graduated in 2017. 
shot over 80% for his career.

On the Podcast mentioned by 06, at least I think it’s the same one I heard, Rick Berry said he talked to Shaq a out it.

Shaq told him he’d rather shoot 0% the modern style than be a good free throw shooter underhanded.

Its actually a fascinating listen. They talk about the physics of it and how it just makes more sense when it comes to the science behind it.

Berry claims he can turn any poor free throw shooter into a good one by teaching his method:

I wouldn’t think it could be done mid season but it might be worth a try during the off-season. 
 

I don’t think a player would do it if it allows them to shoot 50% but I think if a guy like French could learn to shoot 75% they would make the change.

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Saw Barry play in person a half a dozen times or so as a pro and I’ll promise you that neither me nor my hoop junkie friends made negative comments about his underhand foul shooting as he was a dead-eye with it. The term “granny shot” wasn’t around then, so however a player could best get it in the hoop didn’t carry much of a stigma with it.
 

My guess is that Wilt and the others who tried it in the 50s and 60s didn’t understand the technique the way Barry did. He had a very detailed approach to it and I remember trying it the way he described in an article and I could see why it’s a more consistent way to shoot FTs.

I no longer follow the NBA but I thought I saw where there was a player either currently or very recently shooting underhanded.

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I do not know about the physics of the different shots. However, I have always felt that free throws were made harder by the similarity to a standard jump shot. Every player has so much muscle memory built into the jump shot, that it is hard to distinguish the amount of force that should be placed on the ball when shooting FT’s. From that standpoint, it makes perfect sense to use different form, whether it is an underhand toss, or some other form of overhand toss. I think the key would be to reduce the amount of motion by the player as much as possible. That way, there would be less opportunity to mess it up. Maybe shoot it underhand, one-handed, like shooting washers?

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13 hours ago, slufanskip said:

I disagree that technique has nothing to do with it.  Maybe what you're saying is even with bad technique a player should shoot over 30% and that I agree with. However, if your technique is so bad you'd be doing great to shoot 60% it's a lot easier to drop to 30%

Also this is a tip of the cap thread, so I suggest we leave free throws out of it

I read something, think it was Pitino, who said the most important part of the free throw was the pre-shot routine. You had to perform the same routine to get comfortable and into the rhythm of the shot. I've never paid particular attention to either JGood's or French's pre shot routine. 

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1 hour ago, slu72 said:

I read something, think it was Pitino, who said the most important part of the free throw was the pre-shot routine. You had to perform the same routine to get comfortable and into the rhythm of the shot. I've never paid particular attention to either JGood's or French's pre shot routine. 

Goodwin’s is very long and drawn out this season. Noticed that on Saturday.

he was 69% going into last game (Nice). So hopefully this last one was an aberration. I think we’d all take around 70 from Goodwin

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