John Manning

[Bobby Metzinger]

Nobody, literally not a single person, is saying they expect Manning to be Jeff Withey. That would be stupid. What some people, including myself, think is that's Manning could improve as a player in the same way that Jeff Withey improved as a player. Not that he will reach the same peak, but that he too can develop through his four years, something not uncommon for big men of Manning's ilk.

It's interesting that Withey and Manning both hover around the 240 lb. mark. If it's not body mass and size, it's about mental toughness. Withey has it. The jury is still out on Manning.

[cheeseman]

After looking at the stats that B. Hayes put it does cause one to wonder or wander for some that JM may still have a chance this year to prove himself. I will however say that I have grown a bit leery of the practice reports from pick up games that get posted here because we heard the same reports over the years about Justin Johnson, Bryce Husak, Vashon Newsome and Chris Braun. They were always tearing it up in those sessions but somehow it never translated to the court during a game that counted. I want to be careful here since anything said that some may interpret as negative will bring out the "big men need time to develop" people. I really think that if by a player's junior year the light will either go on or it won't and believe the answer to the JM question will be answered one way or the other by this season's conf. schedule unless he gets hurt. By the way when someone tells me that JM is working hard and can get his shot off anytime he wants but all he has to do is start making them then I am sorry I am not sure exactly what that means - of course getting shot off is important but if you can not make it then what is the point.

[Old guy]

Taj, I really do not believe you understand the nature of neurological injury. Manning may or may not ever play at the full level that he could have prior to the injury. This is not a matter of comparing him to other bigs that did or did not develop as expected during their tenures of a SLU scholarship. Bigs may develop slowly, that is true, but bigs with a prior neuro injury are an entirely different matter. The neuro injury will always delay their development beyond the level that being big will. It does not really matter how impatient anybody may get, it is what it is. This kid is either healed enough to be ready to move on, or he is not, period. What SLU may do about it if he does not play up to expectations because of his neuro injury is an entirely different matter. I do hope they extend to him the same kind of largesse they displayed with Fremi, but this is something SLU will have to decide when the time comes to do so. I think we should give Manning a chance to prove himself and to show he is fully recovered and capable of playing as expected.

[kmbilliken]

I never understood why Manning wasn't redshirted his freshman year. He played very little and no meaning minutes that I can recall. Same for Grandy. At least one of them should have been. If they had we would look at them differently if they had 3years of eligibility left.

[RiseAndGrind]

Sometimes I really hate this board.

[MB73]

Again, he has not been productive, but Manning has some special tools and if you make the assumption that the concussion really affected him last year, there is a reasonable chance that with his height and soft shooting touch, etc, he could be a contributing factor. Not Nate Thurmond, but a key player. Really.

If a developmental "5" is going to be contributing player, his giant leap often comes his junior year.

Again, nobody knows that it will happen, and whether or not it is in his DNA, will he "step up"? But IMO it is a reasonable possibility. Reasonable. But we cannot count on him.

(So brace yourselves, here come the trite, stale "50-50" comments, go ahead, you are true comedy kings with the over used, childish banal worn out "50-50" joke, from the usual clowns)

[For-DaLove]

Good post, mb. I completely agree

[Bobby Metzinger]

Again, he has not been productive, but Manning has some special tools and if you make the assumption that the concussion really affected him last year, there is a reasonable chance that with his height and soft shooting touch, etc, he could be a contributing factor. Not Nate Thurmond, but a key player. Really.

If a developmental "5" is going to be contributing player, his giant leap often comes his junior year.

Again, nobody knows that it will happen, and whether or not it is in his DNA, will he "step up"? But IMO it is a reasonable possibility. Reasonable. But we cannot count on him.

(So brace yourselves, here come the trite, stale "50-50" comments, go ahead, you are true comedy kings with the over used, childish banal worn out "50-50" joke, from the usual clowns)

"Chantilly Lace."

[Cowboy]

-DocB seems to have been correct on a couple of assessments from practice the last few years, so all of us can take his word or not, but games tell the story, not a report on practice

-i would assert that the last couple of seasons all of our players are practicing against better players than we are used to seeing, so if the current players can improve, they should (and one of those seasons we had a head coach almost universally accorded as being a great bball instructor and the replacement coach won a couple national coach of the year honors so I would hope that helps players improve as well)

-if JM averages 16 and 10 for 6 games in March/April 2015 i think we would all be over the moon happy, why do we have to place a label on him or any player as to bust or great or anywhere in between before their career is over? play the games and evaluate the career after their last game, imo -- to say if JM or any other player is a bust after the OOC games their junior season, when they could have 50 or so games remaining to play seems not right to me

[majerus mojo]

The John Manning will he or won't he thread is becoming a favorite summer tradition of mine. I thought he showed some skills/touch whatever you will, in that 6 game stretch before the concussion another poster mentioned, granted it was in limited PT. Also a great point about the team's record the past 2 seasons, i.e., no one would change anything about the PT JM has received based on what we've been putting on the floor... Slapping teams around for most of last season. This is a good problem to have, if he contributes nothing, we should still kick some ass. I think he'll be a solid role-player if given some minutes, but like everyone else in this thread, I could be completely wrong. Can't wait to GOSEETHEKIDSPLAY and really get this thread rocking.

Also in response to what we should do with Gillman next year, I too wish JM, GG had redshirted and hope we go that route more often in the future/this season.

[thetorch]

Manning isn't that bad. Comparing him to Husak?!?!? Manning has skills. Husak had none and still his sr year he was halfway decent on a mediocre team.

Are we expecting Manning to be a star? I'm not. I think some of you took Majerus' NBA comments about Manning way out of proportion.

Where was all the derision for Cory Remuken? For me he is the biggest big man Billiken letdown since Chris Braun. He had about a half a dozen great games, a few average and a lot where he never came close to being ready to play. He has talent obviously, he's going to play pro ball despite barely staying in the rotation most of his career. He has to be worse than Manning but he seemingly got a pass, especially last year.

Here is what Manning can do - Defend centers, play the pick and pop, has several good low post moves, alters shots and defends the rim.

Here is what Manning can't do - Stay out of foul trouble, shoot 3s, catch the ball in the post, defend outside the post, run the floor

Manning is at least the equal to Remuken. Remuken could dunk (crowd pleasing but little else), block shots from the weakside (took a guy 6'9 with a 40 inch vertical 4 years to learn how to do this) and guard more players. Those are really the only things Cory did better than Manning, except he didn't foul as much. Manning has been very close several times to replacing Remuken in the rotation over his two years.

Manning is a solid player, not a stiff. He'll contribute before he is done. If he was Husak he would have been run off already. He'll start his sr year and average an 8-6. More than a lot of Centers have done for the Billikens. Manning plays tough too, so does Glaze but Manning will give and take beatings. Remuken, Ellis, Loe, they all played soft. Manning is an enforcer. That is something we are lacking on the team since Conk left. Refs pick on him now, as he gets more PT he'll get more calls his way. He's a physical guy though, always is going to an issue with fouls.

Also redshirting. Adding another year to a player isn't all its cracked up to be. Unless said player is going to be a star why redshirt him? Remuken, Glaze, Manning in a perfect world with unlimited scholarships yeah you redshirt them, but none of them are stars. Why keep them around for longer when you can recruit over them? I think Gillman will get redshirted because we are so heavy on bigs but if not it isn't a big deal. He plays his 4 years, contributes and you move on. Rarely do you get a huge 5th year out of player that you couldn't get from someone else that you recruited. I think it is ridiculous to think of redshirting Crawford. With the types of guards we can bring in, keep him for 4, if he is good, the team is good, his replacement will be that much better and will be playing 4 years from now instead of 5.

[Taj79]

@old guy --- actually I do understand neurological injuries. I know they are certainly a gray area (no pun intended) and deserve/require more research. I am not factoring his injury into last year and making a straight up comparison. I am just wondering when we all move away from the "potential project" classification and into the 'boom/passable/bust" classification. What is the delineation point?

@torch --- I was one (right kshoe) who labeled Remekun the "A10's biggest disappointment" after his sophomore year. And I will second that his Billiken career left a lot to be desired. But he was a good kid and seemed to keep striving. Had he redshirted --- who knows. Would this board be happy with Heinrich-like numbers from Manning? I would --- we got nothing so far.

I'm not saying the kid can be Withey. I'm not saying he can't. I want to know when the "great experiment" is a failure and and how is that determined. It is somewhat unfair Majerus put the "NBA potential" on the kid but so be it, the bar has been set. A senior year of 8/6 is not fulfilling said bar-setting projection.

I quit expecting anything from Remekun after mid-season his junior year. Anything Cory gave from there on was gravy.

[Old guy]

Taj, glad you understand the neuro issue. As far as I can determine this kid may be able to do very well, remain at some acceptable but not great level of performance, or be a disappointment. All of these outcomes will be at least partially due to the level of recovery from his neuro injury. How he will do when tested is totally unknown to me. I do agree that if he does not perform, they are going to have to reach a decision as to what to do with him. However neither of us will be part of that decision. In other words, a line of demarcation will have to be drawn by the staff, and they will have to hold to it. I have no idea what will actually happen.

[bauman]

Agreed. These kids are recruited and when they are extended an offer to play for SLU to represent the University the best is expected of them. Their acceptance boxes out other potential recruits from coming and taking the same offer. In return, the University provides a full ride opportunity to get a four year degree. There is not a kid in D1 basketball that doesn't understand the benefits and drawbacks of playing at the level. There is pressure that will be placed on these kids and that goes with the territory. There will always be pressure from the fans to have the program put the best team on the court and many fans pay a lot of money to support the program and expect that.

All this being said, I don't think it's warranted for fans to be mean spirited and take personal shots at kids, but criticism on play and having expectations is part of the game.

Tonka, this is a post that I think should be pinned at the top of the Board. I couldn't agree more. I really get tired of all the "these kids are playing for free" crowd. If they don't want to "play for free" fine then don't go to college or go to college and pay for everything-tuition, R & B and books.

Your last sentence is also something we all need to remember when posting on this Board. I know I have crossed the line a few times and looking back I really regret it.

[Bobby Metzinger]

Tonka, this is a post that I think should be pinned at the top of the Board. I couldn't agree more. I really get tired of all the "these kids are playing for free" crowd. If they don't want to "play for free" fine then don't go to college or go to college and pay for everything-tuition, R & B and books.

Your last sentence is also something we all need to remember when posting on this Board. I know I have crossed the line a few times and looking back I really regret it.

Why? Because some people on here are sensitive? It's an imaginary line created by people who can't take criticism. College basketball players should not be immune to criticism just because someone with Internet muscles on here says so. Where are those laws at? You have a right to be critical. You shouldn't regret anything. bauman, I want you to pin your ears back and go all out this season. Don't hold back.

[moytoy12]

Manning isn't that bad. Comparing him to Husak?!?!? Manning has skills. Husak had none and still his sr year he was halfway decent on a mediocre team.

Are we expecting Manning to be a star? I'm not. I think some of you took Majerus' NBA comments about Manning way out of proportion.

Where was all the derision for Cory Remuken? For me he is the biggest big man Billiken letdown since Chris Braun. He had about a half a dozen great games, a few average and a lot where he never came close to being ready to play. He has talent obviously, he's going to play pro ball despite barely staying in the rotation most of his career. He has to be worse than Manning but he seemingly got a pass, especially last year.

Here is what Manning can do - Defend centers, play the pick and pop, has several good low post moves, alters shots and defends the rim.

Here is what Manning can't do - Stay out of foul trouble, shoot 3s, catch the ball in the post, defend outside the post, run the floor

Manning is at least the equal to Remuken. Remuken could dunk (crowd pleasing but little else), block shots from the weakside (took a guy 6'9 with a 40 inch vertical 4 years to learn how to do this) and guard more players. Those are really the only things Cory did better than Manning, except he didn't foul as much. Manning has been very close several times to replacing Remuken in the rotation over his two years.

Manning is a solid player, not a stiff. He'll contribute before he is done. If he was Husak he would have been run off already. He'll start his sr year and average an 8-6. More than a lot of Centers have done for the Billikens. Manning plays tough too, so does Glaze but Manning will give and take beatings. Remuken, Ellis, Loe, they all played soft. Manning is an enforcer. That is something we are lacking on the team since Conk left. Refs pick on him now, as he gets more PT he'll get more calls his way. He's a physical guy though, always is going to an issue with fouls.

Also redshirting. Adding another year to a player isn't all its cracked up to be. Unless said player is going to be a star why redshirt him? Remuken, Glaze, Manning in a perfect world with unlimited scholarships yeah you redshirt them, but none of them are stars. Why keep them around for longer when you can recruit over them? I think Gillman will get redshirted because we are so heavy on bigs but if not it isn't a big deal. He plays his 4 years, contributes and you move on. Rarely do you get a huge 5th year out of player that you couldn't get from someone else that you recruited. I think it is ridiculous to think of redshirting Crawford. With the types of guards we can bring in, keep him for 4, if he is good, the team is good, his replacement will be that much better and will be playing 4 years from now instead of 5.

Good post. The only thing I take slight issue with is that JM might run the court a little better than you give him credit for.

I think it's been a pretry fair discussion about JM even if I disagree with some points. I would like to point out that JM is the new KC for Metz. Metz is going to continue to take unwarranted and personal shots at JM. Probably best for all of us to disregard metz's comments when it comes to JM.

[Bobby Metzinger]

Good post. The only thing I take slight issue with is that JM might run the court a little better than you give him credit for.

I think it's been a pretry fair discussion about JM even if I disagree with some points. I would like to point out that JM is the new KC for Metz. Metz is going to continue to take unwarranted and personal shots at JM. Probably best for all of us to disregard metz's comments when it comes to JM.

Unwarranted? He's soft and timid. Husak at least tried to attack the basket. You must not be watching the same game. How are they "personal" when all I know about the kid is from his appearances on the basketball court. I haven't said anything about him personally. I'm sure he's a great person and all, but we're not here to talk about that. What he does off-the-court is none of my concern, but he hasn't shown me much on the court.

[ACE]

+1. People need to get used to young guys not contributing because of upper class talent. This past year's seniors didn't have much talent in the classes above them. Between that class and the rising seniors, there just wasn't much opportunity at any position.

This is a point that is lost on some people. RM build deep, talented rosters unlike most previous Billiken teams. Many of the beloved, "working hard" type players from the past would not have seen the court in the last two seasons.

As we have gotten better as a program, a strange phenomenon has developed... folks tend to pick on the 10th man on a team with a strong 9 man rotation - it was Barnett two years ago and then Manning this past season. When you have a quality 9-man rotation, 4 roster spots will not be playing. That doesn't automatically mean those guys can't play or don't have the potential to be players in the future. This may be a foreign idea to some Billiken fans, but at good programs, sometimes good players have to wait their turn before they can contribute.

[slufanskip]

He's a big who's played 2 years and had a concussion in the middle of one of those. He also only plays one position and had a a guy 2 class years above him. Did we expect freshman John Manning to get playing time when we had Conk, Remeken, and Loe? Did we expect soph JM to get a lot of playing time above Sr Remeken and Jr. Loe? especially when he had a concussion mid season?

F..king relax and give the kid a chance. If he doesn't perform or can't get on the court this year ... have at it

[billiken_roy]

I will get crucified, but beyond our guards and 4th year conklin, ellis and evans. Dont count me in the believers of a great deep roster in the last two years. Our success was all about our three high quality guards, evans, ellis and 4th year conklin

The concussion is a legit excuse card, but not the "misfortune" of being behind loe, remeken and glaze is not a reason for manning not seeing the court.

Assuming all aspects of the concussion are gone, manning by now should be getting as much if not more court time than any billiken big this year.

[b.hayes]

Anyone who interpreted my post as an expectation for JM (John Manning) to turn into Jeff Withey, please turn your login over to Steve and never come back. The point was as follows: my hope is his progression would follow a path similar to Withey's (marked improvement each of his junior and senior seasons when he begins to play legitimate minutes) rather than CH (Chris Heinrich)'s (essentially no improvement other than being on the floor a few more minutes per game in his junior and senior years).

[b.hayes]

I will get crucified, but beyond our guards and 4th year conklin, ellis and evans. Dont count me in the believers of a great deep roster in the last two years. Our success was all about our three high quality guards, evans, ellis and 4th year conklin

The concussion is a legit excuse card, but not the "misfortune" of being behind loe, remeken and glaze is not a reason for manning not seeing the court.

Assuming all aspects of the concussion are gone, manning by now should be getting as much if not more court time than any billiken big this year.

Note that you exclude Cody Ellis and Dwayne Evans, who played the most minutes of anyone in our front court last season.

[b.hayes]

@old guy --- actually I do understand neurological injuries. I know they are certainly a gray area (no pun intended) and deserve/require more research. I am not factoring his injury into last year and making a straight up comparison. I am just wondering when we all move away from the "potential project" classification and into the 'boom/passable/bust" classification. What is the delineation point?

@torch --- I was one (right kshoe) who labeled Remekun the "A10's biggest disappointment" after his sophomore year. And I will second that his Billiken career left a lot to be desired. But he was a good kid and seemed to keep striving. Had he redshirted --- who knows. Would this board be happy with Heinrich-like numbers from Manning? I would --- we got nothing so far.

I'm not saying the kid can be Withey. I'm not saying he can't. I want to know when the "great experiment" is a failure and and how is that determined. It is somewhat unfair Majerus put the "NBA potential" on the kid but so be it, the bar has been set. A senior year of 8/6 is not fulfilling said bar-setting projection.

I quit expecting anything from Remekun after mid-season his junior year. Anything Cory gave from there on was gravy.

That's precisely when you should stop expecting anything from JM (John Manning). Some people may go even longer than that, as CR (Cory Remekun) played greater minutes than JM (John Manning) has to date, but I'm expecting JM (John Manning) to contribute to this team quickly this season. If he doesn't, then I'd be surprised if he ever reaches CH (Chris Heinrich) levels.

[ACE]

Note that you exclude Cody Ellis and Dwayne Evans, who played the most minutes of anyone in our front court last season.

Yep, simply a much deeper roster than in years past. Would Dwayne Polk have even been in the 9-man rotation? He was a 4-year starter back in the day. Anybody think the freshman and sophomore versions of Luke Meyer and Chris Sloan would have seen the floor if they were on last year's team? No way. Thankfully, the program has come a long way.

[billiken_roy]

Yep, simply a much deeper roster than in years past. Would Dwayne Polk have even been in the 9-man rotation? He was a 4-year starter back in the day. Anybody think the freshman and sophomore versions of Luke Meyer and Chris Sloan would have seen the floor if they were on last year's team? No way. Thankfully, the program has come a long way.

Sophomore versions of meyer and sloan were better than glaze, loe, reneken, and barnett. I agree they would not have been been ahead of mitchell, mccall, jett, evans ellis, and 4th year conklin in deserved minutes played. again. The top of the rotation was/is wonderful. But that ends at about the 7 man mark the last couple of years.