John Manning

[JohnnyJumpUp]

Have you ever had a serious concussion? It's not something you just "shake off." You have no idea what type of symptoms, side-effects, or lingering problems Manning experienced. Moreover, Manning and Glaze were never competing for minutes. They play different positions. And this doesn't even take into account the fact that Manning is going to be a JUNIOR. But yes, he's blown his chance.

John Manning is the new Kyle Cassity. Yay!

So what you are trying to say is Manning has NBA potential?

[Taj79]

The singular truth about John Manning is that he's running out of time. If we all agree that he is a "project" then when do we begin movin ghim off the "potential" side of the ledger and taking actual results into account? Is it this OOC schedule? Is it when this, his third league season, starts?

[RiseAndGrind]

So what you are trying to say is Manning has NBA potential?

Yes

[cheeseman]

Have you ever had a serious concussion? It's not something you just "shake off." You have no idea what type of symptoms, side-effects, or lingering problems Manning experienced. Moreover, Manning and Glaze were never competing for minutes. They play different positions. And this doesn't even take into account the fact that Manning is going to be a JUNIOR. But yes, he's blown his chance.

John Manning is the new Kyle Cassity. Yay!

OK - I never said anything about the seriousness of any injury - I understand a concussion is not to be taken lightly but if he was cleared to play after 2.5 weeks then I would only assume that he had recovered and was not suffering long term effects like the kid from KS did - do you really think they would have cleared him if he was not ready - of course not.

Clearly you are blinded by your insistence to credit me with things that I never said. Once again, it was Westy who said GG got JM minutes - my point only was that if that was true then why did JM not assert himself and get his minutes back. I never said he had blown his career - all I said was that he blew his chance to get minutes last year when Grandy was out - by the way have you ever had a dislocated shoulder - it can take months to get full range of motion back and that was what Grandy was dealing with. If you look back I have said at least twice that I hope JM comes on this year so I am not rooting against him. Finally, since you are claiming that JM is now the new whipping boy - let me point out that even if that does happen, it would only be because he earned it from his lack of improvement and that is only on him.

Please read this response as many times as necessary for you to comprehend it before flying off the handle again.

[Old guy]

Have you ever had a serious concussion? It's not something you just "shake off." You have no idea what type of symptoms, side-effects, or lingering problems Manning experienced. Moreover, Manning and Glaze were never competing for minutes. They play different positions. And this doesn't even take into account the fact that Manning is going to be a JUNIOR. But yes, he's blown his chance.

John Manning is the new Kyle Cassity. Yay!

The singular truth about John Manning is that he's running out of time. If we all agree that he is a "project" then when do we begin movin ghim off the "potential" side of the ledger and taking actual results into account? Is it this OOC schedule? Is it when this, his third league season, starts?

I wanted to clarify what a "concussion" is. Perhaps the best way to describe it is by saying what it is not. It is not something that is the same for everybody as Rise and Grind indicates. With a concussion the brain bounces around inside the skull (when the skull is hit hard against something) and injures itself. The issue that determines the severity of the concussion and the duration of the recovery is the level and the location of the injury suffered. If the injury is in the motor sites, he may not be able to move properly, if it is in the balance sites the same goes for balance, etc... To make things very simple, we might say that the difference between a concussion and a stroke is the degree or severity, the permanence of the neuro damage, and the cause of the injury. I hope you get the idea that a severe enough concussion may never fully recover to prior levels of function. However even a very severe concussion (or a series of them) may come very very close to a full recovery. I can cite Muhammand Ali, who I had the honor of meeting in person in the mid 1970s, a great athlete who was able to continue boxing despite what must have been very severe and multiple concussions. Sadly, this man suffered severely and had severe limitations due to his prior concussions at a later date. Back to JM, what I am saying is that he may be much improved this coming year, this remains to be seen.

I fully agree with Taj that his time to shine may be running out. Another thing he, JM, must consider is how much risk he personally wants to take as he resumes playing. Will he allow himself to perform fully or will he be afraid of a repeat concussion? We will see this as well.

[cheeseman]

The singular truth about John Manning is that he's running out of time. If we all agree that he is a "project" then when do we begin movin ghim off the "potential" side of the ledger and taking actual results into account? Is it this OOC schedule? Is it when this, his third league season, starts?

Fair point

[cheeseman]

I wanted to clarify what a "concussion" is. Perhaps the best way to describe it is by saying what it is not. It is not something that is the same for everybody as Rise and Grind indicates. With a concussion the brain bounces around inside the skull (when the skull is hit hard against something) and injures itself. The issue that determines the severity of the concussion and the duration of the recovery is the level and the location of the injury suffered. If the injury is in the motor sites, he may not be able to move properly, if it is in the balance sites the same goes for balance, etc... To make things very simple, we might say that the difference between a concussion and a stroke is the degree or severity, the permanence of the neuro damage, and the cause of the injury. I hope you get the idea that a severe enough concussion may never fully recover to prior levels of function. However even a very severe concussion (or a series of them) may come very very close to a full recovery. I can cite Muhammand Ali, who I had the honor of meeting in person in the mid 1970s, a great athlete who was able to continue boxing despite what must have been very severe and multiple concussions. Sadly, this man suffered severely and had severe limitations due to his prior concussions at a later date. Back to JM, what I am saying is that he may be much improved this coming year, this remains to be seen.

I fully agree with Taj that his time to shine may be running out. Another thing he, JM, must consider is how much risk he personally wants to take as he resumes playing. Will he allow himself to perform fully or will he be afraid of a repeat concussion. We will see this as well.

Thanks for the good info - another thing I would add is that when Ali was boxing we did not have the knowledge about concussions that we have today nor the tests that we run to measure the recovery. I would expect that the doctors/staff would not have cleared him to practice or play unless the test results had not come back satisfactory - so I do believe that we are in agreement as a whole regarding JM injury status.

[RUBillsFan]

Depending on the severity of his concussion, there is a possibility that Manning was not able to practice or keep himself in basketball shape while he was out. Therefore, even after he was cleared to play, he may have been significantly limited because he missed practice time or didn't have the stamina to play for very long.

[slu72]

If I recall correctly, GG took CR's starting spot and RL moved over to C.

[ACE]

Remekun missed the first couple of games of the season, including the Santa Clara debacle, due to injury. Grandy started the first two. Remekun became a starter the 3rd game of the season against Texas A&M in Kansas City. CR played very well in his first game. He also played an excellent game against New Mexico. Grandy got hurt in Kansas City and was completely out of the rotation until the Duquesne game. Manning then entered the rotation after Glaze got hurt. From the Washington game in late November untl Loyola Marymount in late December, Manning was in the rotation, getting about 12 mpg. As I pointed out previously, Manning played pretty well during that stretch of 6 games when he was getting consistent minutes. Then he got the concussion prior to the SIUE game. From the New Mexico game through the URI game, Crews basically went with an 8-man rotation. Manning got two 2-minute appearances, but was essentially out of the rotation. Perhaps he was still feeling the effects from the concussion. It is interesting that we went with an 8-man rotation for one of our best games of the season (New Mexico) and probably our worst of the season (Rhode Island).

Following the dreadful URI game, Glaze took over for CR in the starting lineup. He provided an instant spark for a struggling team by putting up 8 points and 11 rebounds in the win over Duquesne. From that point on, the 9-man rotation was set, including four bigs (RL, CE, CR and GG).

[DoctorB]

I'll be happy to put in a strong word for John, a good guy and a very hard worker, plus a good solid student and teammate. He is coming along and when you watch the pick-up games he seems to be pretty strong down low. I'm pretty sure he'll be getting minutes the next two years, and make some contributions. He can get his shot off, anytime he wants, he just needs to start making them and taking good shots consistently. His defense really does change shots.

So please lay off.

2: I could make a very long list of excellent college big men who did little or nothing for 2 or sometimes 3 years. It is common for big men to take some time to adjust to Div. I, fill out, and work on form and footwork, etc., so I do wish some of you would lower expectations for new fresh fish, just a bit.

Finally: one aspect of top teams is that you often have bench guys who could start and play 25-30 minutes for roughly half the teams in Division I. We are getting spoiled, I think. but that's good, right??

[JMM28]

Spot on Doc. I don't understand why people can't understand that it takes time for big men. Especially big men at the level SLU is recruiting.

To put it simply. Ian Vouyoukas as a fresh-soph would not have played the past two years if he was on a team with this much talent.

[Westy03]

I'll be happy to put in a strong word for John, a good guy and a very hard worker, plus a good solid student and teammate. He is coming along and when you watch the pick-up games he seems to be pretty strong down low. I'm pretty sure he'll be getting minutes the next two years, and make some contributions. He can get his shot off, anytime he wants, he just needs to start making them and taking good shots consistently. His defense really does change shots.

So please lay off.

2: I could make a very long list of excellent college big men who did little or nothing for 2 or sometimes 3 years. It is common for big men to take some time to adjust to Div. I, fill out, and work on form and footwork, etc., so I do wish some of you would lower expectations for new fresh fish, just a bit.

Finally: one aspect of top teams is that you often have bench guys who could start and play 25-30 minutes for roughly half the teams in Division I. We are getting spoiled, I think. but that's good, right??

+1. Nice post Doc. I know you have given a rundown on how Crawford is looking in the open gyms but can you provide some insight on the rest of the newcomers?

[waldo027]

Spot on Doc. I don't understand why people can't understand that it takes time for big men. Especially big men at the level SLU is recruiting.

To put it simply. Ian Vouyoukas as a fresh-soph would not have played the past two years if he was on a team with this much talent.

I don't understand why people stomp their feet and demand results from a 20 year old college kid who doesn't get paid, but that's another story entirely.

[Billikenswin]

I don't understand why people stomp their feet and demand results from a 20 year old college kid who doesn't get paid, but that's another story entirely.

I could not agree more, particularly with the big centers who take a much longer time to become completely comfortable with their big bodies as they grow up. John Manning is working hard from what I have been told and he has a chance to move into the rotation as a backup to Rob. If our two big young frosh continue to grow and develop and pick up the complex defensive schemes--not an easy task--we could have the best group of front line players in the Majerus/Crews era in terms of size,skill, athleticism and depth. But this is a new team and a new year and it remains to be seen how the group meshes. I think that Barnett will be better than he has ever been and on the offensive end our guards should be excellent with JJ and Mike really taking over as seniors and a tough excellent shooting point guard in McBroom added to the mix. If Crawford can defend I believe he will get some minutes and Reggie will get minutes just because he is a rebounding machine. Tanner is athletic and can shoot the three--in the videos I have watched he reminds me of a bigger version of Cody when Cody first arrived and he has a very quick release on the outside shots. It will probably be hard for any of the frosh to get big minutes because those starters are--to quote Jay Bilas -"men". But I am very excited to see how tough and hard nosed this team may be by the end of the year because we have depth and practices should be very competitive.

[billikenfan05]

I don't understand why people stomp their feet and demand results from a 20 year old college kid who doesn't get paid, but that's another story entirely.

Depends on your definition of paid...

[Bobby Metzinger]

I don't hate JM one bit. But being honest does anyone believe he progressed much last season? He was hurt and when he got in he didnt appear to have additional strength or confidence from his first year. Hope he makes a giant leap this season but I can't see it. That's why I wonder about his summer play.

Excellent comment.

[Bobby Metzinger]

I don't understand why people stomp their feet and demand results from a 20 year old college kid who doesn't get paid, but that's another story entirely.

Because SLU is a Division I basketball program, not the local CYO. Wow. I can't believe that is a question asked on an internet message board.

[Tonka]

Because SLU is a Division I basketball program, not the local CYO. Wow. I can't believe that is a question asked on an internet message board.

Agreed. These kids are recruited and when they are extended an offer to play for SLU to represent the University the best is expected of them. Their acceptance boxes out other potential recruits from coming and taking the same offer. In return, the University provides a full ride opportunity to get a four year degree. There is not a kid in D1 basketball that doesn't understand the benefits and drawbacks of playing at the level. There is pressure that will be placed on these kids and that goes with the territory. There will always be pressure from the fans to have the program put the best team on the court and many fans pay a lot of money to support the program and expect that.

All this being said, I don't think it's warranted for fans to be mean spirited and take personal shots at kids, but criticism on play and having expectations is part of the game.

[Taj79]

I want to come back to my question ---- when do we expect John Manning to actually contribute? This OOC season? This league season? Or, maybe a third or fourth answer ----- next year? Or never? Or an answer TBD.

Bryce Husak had five years counting his redshirt season. I would offer he never developed into an adequate Division 1 option. An eighth or ninth man at best. It would be unfair to compare John to Rob Loe or Ian due to my estimation that they were Euro-bigs and not American bigs. Different game, different skill set. Should we expect John to develop along the lines of Kenny Brown? Chris Braun was never really developed. Even Chris Heinrich was valuable most if not all of his four years. Can we expect John to this year post numbers similar to Heiney's freshman year. I'm just curious as to what the parameters are? I got down on folks like Cory Remekun and I prefer to avoid that kind of expectations/criticism. So what and why do folks expect what they expect.

Here's a minor complication ---- next year, John's senior year, we expect to have another "project" on the bench in Austin Gillman. If John is still John, do we/you cut bait and go fish with the Gillman experiment? Gillman will have three more years after that. Do you sacrifice for the now or build for the future? Right now, I'd think Gillman would be the route to go. But that's just me. What is the shelf life of the "Manhatten Manning Project" --- if he is indeed a project? I guess Johncan always bethenext Jeff Withey or Kelly Olyneck (sp?).

I am sincerely hoping the answer is a good one and it proves out this OOC season. But all it is is blind faith and hope and dreams right now. There is no real evidence that projects to much at this point, that's all.

[b.hayes]

I want to come back to my question ---- when do we expect John Manning to actually contribute? This OOC season? This league season? Or, maybe a third or fourth answer ----- next year? Or never? Or an answer TBD.

Bryce Husak had five years counting his redshirt season. I would offer he never developed into an adequate Division 1 option. An eighth or ninth man at best. It would be unfair to compare John to Rob Loe or Ian due to my estimation that they were Euro-bigs and not American bigs. Different game, different skill set. Should we expect John to develop along the lines of Kenny Brown? Chris Braun was never really developed. Even Chris Heinrich was valuable most if not all of his four years. Can we expect John to this year post numbers similar to Heiney's freshman year. I'm just curious as to what the parameters are? I got down on folks like Cory Remekun and I prefer to avoid that kind of expectations/criticism. So what and why do folks expect what they expect.

Here's a minor complication ---- next year, John's senior year, we expect to have another "project" on the bench in Austin Gillman. If John is still John, do we/you cut bait and go fish with the Gillman experiment? Gillman will have three more years after that. Do you sacrifice for the now or build for the future? Right now, I'd think Gillman would be the route to go. But that's just me. What is the shelf life of the "Manhatten Manning Project" --- if he is indeed a project? I guess Johncan always bethenext Jeff Withey or Kelly Olyneck (sp?).

I am sincerely hoping the answer is a good one and it proves out this OOC season. But all it is is blind faith and hope and dreams right now. There is no real evidence that projects to much at this point, that's all.

CH (Chris Heinrich)'s freshman year stats were: 15.2 mpg, 4.3 ppg, 3.0 rpg, nothing else notable over 0.5 pg.

CH (Chris Heinrich)'s sophomore year stats were: 12.8 mpg, 3.5 ppg, 2.9 rpg, nothing else notable over 0.5 pg.

CH (Chris Heinrich)'s junior year stats were: 21.2 mpg, 5.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 0.8 bpg, 0.9 spg

CH (Chris Heinrich)'s senior year stats were: 21.0 mpg, 6.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 0.5 bpg, 0.4 spg

So, "valuable" is probably a reasonable word, his stats suggest he was average. Slightly more valuable than CR (Cory Remuken) in most stats besides blocks. SLU's record during his career was 73-55 (.570). They appeared in the NCAA tournament twice, despite never finishing better than 3rd in their conference.

JM (John Manning)'s freshman year stats were: 3.9 mpg, 0.5 ppg, 1.0 rpg, nothing else notable over 0.5 pg.

JM (John Manning)'s freshman year stats were: 5.7 mpg, 1.7 ppg, 0.6 rpg, nothing else notable over 0.5 pg.

SLU's record during JM (John Manning)'s career to date is 54-15 (.783). They have appeared in the NCAA tournament twice, finishing 1st and 2nd in the conference one time each.

He hasn't seen the floor much mostly because he's been behind experienced frontcourt players in CE (Cody Ellis), RL (Rob Loe), CR (Cory Remuken) and DE (Dwayne Evans) who accounted for a total of 96.7 minutes per game last year. You can wonder why he wasn't beating out GG (Grandy Glaze), but even GG (Grandy Glaze) was only playing 12.0 mpg, which is less than CH (Chris Heinrich) ever averaged all four years.

Now that there are frontcourt minutes available for the taking (44.2 between CE [Cody Ellis] and CR [Cory Remuken]), it will be time to see whether JM (John Manning) has "it" or doesn't. I agree there isn't much evidence pointing towards him being an all-league player this year. However, he has hardly seen the floor - and my opinion is that's through no fault of his own. This is how a college basketball team should work. You come in, ride the pine, learn the system, and thrive as a junior and senior. We've been lucky that the freshman and sophomores we've been forced to play the last few years were talented.

Jeff Withey's freshman year stats: 3.0 mpg, 1.3 ppg, 1.4 rpg

Jeff Withey's sophomore year stats: 6.2 mpg, 2.3 ppg, 1.8 rpg

Jeff Withey's junior year stats: 24.8 mpg, 9.0 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 3.6 bpg

Jeff WIthey's senior year stats: 30.9 mpg, 13.7 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 3.9 bpg

I'm certainly hoping JM (John Manning)'s progression is more like Jeff Withey's than CH (Chris Heinrich)'s. You won't need to wait until next year to find out. If by league play JM (John Manning) isn't playing at least 15+ mpg then there's no reason to suspect much out of him for the rest of the year, and reason to doubt he'll be doing anything different his senior year. Only time will tell, but I don't think the wait will be too much longer.

[Bobby Metzinger]

CH (Chris Heinrich)'s freshman year stats were: 15.2 mpg, 4.3 ppg, 3.0 rpg, nothing else notable over 0.5 pg.

CH (Chris Heinrich)'s sophomore year stats were: 12.8 mpg, 3.5 ppg, 2.9 rpg, nothing else notable over 0.5 pg.

CH (Chris Heinrich)'s junior year stats were: 21.2 mpg, 5.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 0.8 bpg, 0.9 spg

CH (Chris Heinrich)'s senior year stats were: 21.0 mpg, 6.8 ppg, 4.5 rpg, 0.5 bpg, 0.4 spg

So, "valuable" is probably a reasonable word, his stats suggest he was average. Slightly more valuable than CR (Cory Remuken) in most stats besides blocks. SLU's record during his career was 73-55 (.570). They appeared in the NCAA tournament twice, despite never finishing better than 3rd in their conference.

JM (John Manning)'s freshman year stats were: 3.9 mpg, 0.5 ppg, 1.0 rpg, nothing else notable over 0.5 pg.

JM (John Manning)'s freshman year stats were: 5.7 mpg, 1.7 ppg, 0.6 rpg, nothing else notable over 0.5 pg.

SLU's record during JM (John Manning)'s career to date is 54-15 (.783). They have appeared in the NCAA tournament twice, finishing 1st and 2nd in the conference one time each.

He hasn't seen the floor much mostly because he's been behind experienced frontcourt players in CE (Cody Ellis), RL (Rob Loe), CR (Cory Remuken) and DE (Dwayne Evans) who accounted for a total of 96.7 minutes per game last year. You can wonder why he wasn't beating out GG (Grandy Glaze), but even GG (Grandy Glaze) was only playing 12.0 mpg, which is less than CH (Chris Heinrich) ever averaged all four years.

Now that there are frontcourt minutes available for the taking (44.2 between CE [Cody Ellis] and CR [Cory Remuken]), it will be time to see whether JM (John Manning) has "it" or doesn't. I agree there isn't much evidence pointing towards him being an all-league player this year. However, he has hardly seen the floor - and my opinion is that's through no fault of his own. This is how a college basketball team should work. You come in, ride the pine, learn the system, and thrive as a junior and senior. We've been lucky that the freshman and sophomores we've been forced to play the last few years were talented.

Jeff Withey's freshman year stats: 3.0 mpg, 1.3 ppg, 1.4 rpg

Jeff Withey's sophomore year stats: 6.2 mpg, 2.3 ppg, 1.8 rpg

Jeff Withey's junior year stats: 24.8 mpg, 9.0 ppg, 6.3 rpg, 3.6 bpg

Jeff WIthey's senior year stats: 30.9 mpg, 13.7 ppg, 8.5 rpg, 3.9 bpg

I'm certainly hoping JM (John Manning)'s progression is more like Jeff Withey's than CH (Chris Heinrich)'s. You won't need to wait until next year to find out. If by league play JM (John Manning) isn't playing at least 15+ mpg then there's no reason to suspect much out of him for the rest of the year, and reason to doubt he'll be doing anything different his senior year. Only time will tell, but I don't think the wait will be too much longer.

The definition of "pipe dream."

Luis Sojo was on the Yankees bench for three World Series championships in the 90s. Gonna build him a bust in Cooperstown for that?

[milwaukeebill]

I doubt we have John manning being taught by Danny manning. That tells me he won't be withey

[NH]

Nobody, literally not a single person, is saying they expect Manning to be Jeff Withey. That would be stupid. What some people, including myself, think is that's Manning could improve as a player in the same way that Jeff Withey improved as a player. Not that he will reach the same peak, but that he too can develop through his four years, something not uncommon for big men of Manning's ilk.

[milwaukeebill]

So you think "manning could improve as a player in the same way that jeff withey improved". I'm not saying he couldn't improve alot. But withey is such a poor comparison. he had the best big man coach in the country for 3 years!