ESPN Mid Major Top 10

[slu72]

Bills come in at 9. Murray St is numero uno. Davidson 5th. Boise comes in at 4 and UAB in there as well. 

[HoosierPal]

12 minutes ago, slu72 said:

Bills come in at 9. Murray St is numero uno. Davidson 5th. Boise comes in at 4 and UAB in there as well. 

Fair enough.  Belmont should be in there with 4-5 in Q1/Q2 games.

[Bills By 40]

@slu72I think you're looking at an outdated article, because the most recent version posted just hours ago has UAB at 3, Davidson at 4, Boise St. at 5, A10 rival Loyola Chicago at 8, and SLU at 9. Belmont was "receiving votes" and Iona just got bounced from their spot at # 8. 

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/33251350/wyoming-new-no-2-kevin-connors-mid-major-top-10-basketball-family-thrives-detroit-mercy

 

[cheeseman]

9 minutes ago, Bills By 40 said:

@slu72I think you're looking at an outdated article, because the most recent version posted just hours ago has UAB at 3, Davidson at 4, Boise St. at 5, A10 rival Loyola Chicago at 8, and SLU at 9. Belmont was "receiving votes" and Iona just got bounced from their spot at # 8. 

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/33251350/wyoming-new-no-2-kevin-connors-mid-major-top-10-basketball-family-thrives-detroit-mercy

 

Loyola Chicago is not our rival yet.

[laker119]

That loss to UAB continues to irk me, every time I see UAB in articles or projections.

[Minerva N. Owl]

30 minutes ago, Bills By 40 said:

@slu72I think you're looking at an outdated article, because the most recent version posted just hours ago has UAB at 3, Davidson at 4, Boise St. at 5, A10 rival Loyola Chicago at 8, and SLU at 9. Belmont was "receiving votes" and Iona just got bounced from their spot at # 8. 

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/33251350/wyoming-new-no-2-kevin-connors-mid-major-top-10-basketball-family-thrives-detroit-mercy

 

 

[Fraz]

Can’t wait for Loyola to join the conference.  They are always in the mix as one of the best mid-majors in the country.  STL/CHI has rivalry written all over it too

[RUBillsFan]

45 minutes ago, Bills By 40 said:

@slu72I think you're looking at an outdated article, because the most recent version posted just hours ago has UAB at 3, Davidson at 4, Boise St. at 5, A10 rival Loyola Chicago at 8, and SLU at 9. Belmont was "receiving votes" and Iona just got bounced from their spot at # 8. 

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/33251350/wyoming-new-no-2-kevin-connors-mid-major-top-10-basketball-family-thrives-detroit-mercy

 

I like SLU getting media attention, but that might be the dumbest / least informative blurb I've ever read in one of these type rankings articles.  Strip out the pop culture Kardashian nonsense and it basically just lists out the Billikens recent & upcoming schedule.

I also take exception that somehow a road loss to Davidson would automatically kill SLU's at-large changes or make them less than a top 10 mid-major team.  You pointed out that Davidson is #4 on this list.  You would expect the #4 team to beat the #9 team at their own arena.  That result happening shouldn't detract from the #9 team unless it is a blow out.

[BLIKNS]

College Insider poll includes Gonzaga

[Minerva N. Owl]

23 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

I like SLU getting media attention, but that might be the dumbest / least informative blurb I've ever read in one of these type rankings articles.  Strip out the pop culture Kardashian nonsense and it basically just lists out the Billikens recent & upcoming schedule.

I also take exception that somehow a road loss to Davidson would automatically kill SLU's at-large changes or make them less than a top 10 mid-major team.  You pointed out that Davidson is #4 on this list.  You would expect the #4 team to beat the #9 team at their own arena.  That result happening shouldn't detract from the #9 team unless it is a blow out.

 

Questions: 1) Is it new this year that ESPN has Kevin Collins do a "Mid-Major Top 10" list? It seems this weekly list began several weeks ago, at the beginning of January 2022. Is this new, or was there such a list in past years? (I recall Mid-Major Top 25 lists, especially pre-season, but I don't recall a weekly ESPN Mid-Major Top Ten list until January 2022.)

 

2) In recent years, how many from the group that ESPN now treats as "Mid-Majors" typically go to the dance? Or maybe better, after auto-qualifiers, is there a typical number of spots on the dance card for non-conference-winning Mid-Majors?

 

3) Which schools count as "Mid-Majors" according to ESPN? After all, ESPN seems recently to treat Gonzaga as "transcending labels", so the category of "Mid-Majors" seems arbitrary. Maybe ESPN has in mind these: not-Gonzaga, but every other from A10, C-USA, Ivy, MAC, MV, SoCon, SunBult, WCC. See here and here. Is that correct?

 

4) Is there any meaning to the ESPN "Mid-Major Top 10 list" with regard to dance invitations? Does the selection committee typically include at least ten "Mid-Majors", or is this just ESPN hype, producing a meaningless category/ranking?

[Compton]

8 minutes ago, Minerva N. Owl said:

4) Is there any meaning to the ESPN "Mid-Major Top 10 list".....?

The answer to that question is no, which pretty much addresses the rest.

[Box and Won]

1 hour ago, Bills By 40 said:

@slu72I think you're looking at an outdated article, because the most recent version posted just hours ago has UAB at 3, Davidson at 4, Boise St. at 5, A10 rival Loyola Chicago at 8, and SLU at 9. Belmont was "receiving votes" and Iona just got bounced from their spot at # 8. 

https://www.espn.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/33251350/wyoming-new-no-2-kevin-connors-mid-major-top-10-basketball-family-thrives-detroit-mercy

 

If anything, we are the Pete Davidson of the A10.  Davidson (College) is Kanye, and we're coming to steal his girl.

Okay, that's probably a bad metaphor too.

[AnkielBreakers]

1 hour ago, RUBillsFan said:

I like SLU getting media attention, but that might be the dumbest / least informative blurb I've ever read in one of these type rankings articles.  Strip out the pop culture Kardashian nonsense and it basically just lists out the Billikens recent & upcoming schedule.

I also take exception that somehow a road loss to Davidson would automatically kill SLU's at-large changes or make them less than a top 10 mid-major team.  You pointed out that Davidson is #4 on this list.  You would expect the #4 team to beat the #9 team at their own arena.  That result happening shouldn't detract from the #9 team unless it is a blow out.

I am just really confused by the metaphors themselves.

[Bills By 40]

5 minutes ago, AnkielBreakers said:

I am just really confused by the metaphors themselves.

They were terrible metaphors, very lazy reporting was done there. Other teams like Wyoming were well thought out, no surprise we didn't get the same attention. 

[Minerva N. Owl]

16 minutes ago, Compton said:

The answer to that question is no, which pretty much addresses the rest.

I probably should have made #4 two distinct questions. I take it that you are saying NO to this part: Is there any meaning to the ESPN "Mid-Major Top 10 list" with regard to dance invitations? I mostly agree with that. But I am still interested in getting an answer to this question: Does the selection committee typically include at least ten non-conference-tournament-winning "Mid-Majors"? I haven't done the work to look at the pattern of dance invitations in terms of non-conference-tournament-winning Mid-Majors, but it strikes me as an interesting and worthwhile question. After all, there is a general sense that it is getting harder and harder to come by dance invitations for Mid-Majors, that the NET and other tools are biased against Mid-Majors, that scheduling is difficult because the Power Five schools generally don't want to risk playing Mid-Majors, etc. So, while I agree that the ESPN Mid-Major Top Ten list is mostly just a way for ESPN to produce content and sell ads, I think it might be worthwhile to learn whether there is a pattern regarding how many non-conference-tournament-winning mid-majors get dance invitations.

[Minerva N. Owl]

1 hour ago, BLIKNS said:

College Insider poll includes Gonzaga

A10 programs are NOT part of the College Insider Mens Mid Major Top 25 poll, for some reason.

From College Insider website: The Mid-Major Poll is made up of teams from the following conferences: America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, Colonial, Horizon, Ivy, Metro Atlantic, Mid-American, Mid-Eastern, Missouri Valley, Northeast, Ohio Valley, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Southwestern, Summit, Sun Belt, West Coast, Western Athletic.

 

 

[Old guy]

20 minutes ago, Minerva N. Owl said:

A10 programs are NOT part of the College Insider Mens Mid Major Top 25 poll, for some reason.

From College Insider website: The Mid-Major Poll is made up of teams from the following conferences: America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, Colonial, Horizon, Ivy, Metro Atlantic, Mid-American, Mid-Eastern, Missouri Valley, Northeast, Ohio Valley, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Southwestern, Summit, Sun Belt, West Coast, Western Athletic.

 

 

So, does this mean that the A10 falls into a crack between Majors and Mid-Majors?

[Littlebill]

1 hour ago, Minerva N. Owl said:

A10 programs are NOT part of the College Insider Mens Mid Major Top 25 poll, for some reason.

From College Insider website: The Mid-Major Poll is made up of teams from the following conferences: America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, Colonial, Horizon, Ivy, Metro Atlantic, Mid-American, Mid-Eastern, Missouri Valley, Northeast, Ohio Valley, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Southwestern, Summit, Sun Belt, West Coast, Western Athletic.

 

 

Because the a10 isn't a mid major conference.

[cgeldmacher]

3 hours ago, Fraz said:

Can’t wait for Loyola to join the conference.  They are always in the mix as one of the best mid-majors in the country.  STL/CHI has rivalry written all over it too

We should invite Jordair to the first game at home against the Ramblers and see if he can stir us up a rivalry.

[Minerva N. Owl]

30 minutes ago, Littlebill said:

Because the a10 isn't a mid major conference.

Except ESPN seems to consider the A10 a Mid Major. The thread title is "ESPN Mid Major Top Ten". SLU72 started this thread by pointing out that ESPN released a new weekly ranking this morning. Today's ESPN list has two A10 teams ranked top ten: Davidson (4) and SLU (9). 

The difficulty is that "Mid Major" seems to be a loose term with shifting meanings. As OG mentioned, the A10 seems to fall into a crack. For now, it looks like ESPN is treating the A10 as a Mid Major while treating Gonzaga as "transcending labels".

It seems that ESPN may continue this weekly list until selection Sunday. The content is puff, and the rankings seem a bit arbitrary. (Davidson moved up on the list, even as SLU passed Davidson on the NET.) Still, in producing this weekly list, ESPN seems aware that there's interest in such a list. After all, it's not unreasonable to have a sense that schools from conferences other than the power five and the Big East are jockeying for a limited number of invitations to dance.

[Compton]

2 hours ago, Minerva N. Owl said:

Does the selection committee typically include at least ten non-conference-tournament-winning "Mid-Majors"?

No. It's closer to 5, if you include the A10 and American as "mid-major."

[Deutschkind]

2 hours ago, Minerva N. Owl said:

A10 programs are NOT part of the College Insider Mens Mid Major Top 25 poll, for some reason.

From College Insider website: The Mid-Major Poll is made up of teams from the following conferences: America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, Colonial, Horizon, Ivy, Metro Atlantic, Mid-American, Mid-Eastern, Missouri Valley, Northeast, Ohio Valley, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Southwestern, Summit, Sun Belt, West Coast, Western Athletic.

 

 

If all those conferences are mid-major, then there is literally no conference below "mid." How does that make sense?

Definitions are murky, but the original definition of mid-major was 'not big' but also 'not small.'

America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, Metro Atlantic, Mid-Eastern, Northeast, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Southwestern, Summit, Sun Belt and WAC are small

Big Ten, Big XII, PAC12, ACC, SEC, Big East are "big"

Everyone else is in between. We can argue till the cows come home about whether the A10 and Colonial should be considered in the same group or have a "high-mid-major" and a "small-mid-major" separation, but it doesn't really matter

[Minerva N. Owl]

16 minutes ago, Deutschkind said:

If all those conferences are mid-major, then there is literally no conference below "mid." How does that make sense?

Definitions are murky, but the original definition of mid-major was 'not big' but also 'not small.'

America East, Atlantic Sun, Big Sky, Big South, Big West, Metro Atlantic, Mid-Eastern, Northeast, Patriot, Southern, Southland, Southwestern, Summit, Sun Belt and WAC are small

Big Ten, Big XII, PAC12, ACC, SEC, Big East are "big"

Everyone else is in between. We can argue till the cows come home about whether the A10 and Colonial should be considered in the same group or have a "high-mid-major" and a "small-mid-major" separation, but it doesn't really matter

Earlier, I noted that ESPN seemingly considers Gonzaga as "transcending labels", so ESPN's list of "Mid Majors" seems to come from these conferences: A10, C-USA, Ivy, MAC, MV, SoCon, SunBelt, WCC. Here's ESPN's preseason Mid-Major picks:

 

[Minerva N. Owl]

1 hour ago, Compton said:

No. It's closer to 5, if you include the A10 and American as "mid-major."

This seems right. Looking at the ESPN list from this morning, UAB is ranked #3. Lunardi has UAB as last among his "First Four Out" list. ESPN's new Mid Major Top Ten list appears to be mostly useless, not only with regard to the analysis (which is shallow), but also with regard to dance invitations. Going down the list, Davidson is ranked #4 today, and Lunardi has Davidson seeded as a #11, but that's probably simply as a placeholder for the A10 tournament champion, not as a sign that Lunardi thinks Davidson would get an at-large bid if they lost the A10 tournament. A few of the remaining teams on today's ESPN Top Ten Mid Major list are included in Lunardi's current bracket (Boise St, North Texas, Loyola). The moral of the story is as Compton suggests: there's little connection between ESPN's Top Ten Mid Major list and the dance. From the list today, five seems about right, at least according to Lunardi. It's likely that, at the end of the season, teams on this ESPN top ten MM list that don't win conference tournaments will be sweating for the last few dance invitations.

 

[slu72]

16 minutes ago, Minerva N. Owl said:

This seems right. Looking at the ESPN list from this morning, UAB is ranked #3. Lunardi has UAB as last among his "First Four Out" list. ESPN's new Mid Major Top Ten list appears to be mostly useless, not only with regard to the analysis (which is shallow), but also with regard to dance invitations. Going down the list, Davidson is ranked #4 today, and Lunardi has Davidson seeded as a #11, but that's probably simply as a placeholder for the A10 tournament champion, not as a sign that Lunardi thinks Davidson would get an at-large bid if they lost the A10 tournament. A few of the remaining teams on today's ESPN Top Ten Mid Major list are included in Lunardi's current bracket (Boise St, North Texas, Loyola). The moral of the story is as Compton suggests: there's little connection between ESPN's Top Ten Mid Major list and the dance. From the list today, five seems about right, at least according to Lunardi. It's likely that, at the end of the season, teams on this ESPN top ten MM list that don't win conference tournaments will be sweating for the last few dance invitations.

 

I think last week Lunardi had 4 MWC and 4 WCC teams making the tournament. I made a post where I said “ain’t gonna happen”.  That’s 8 mids from two conferences. When’s the last time that happened? And no one considers Zaga a mid anymore. They are now BB royalty. They should go independent.