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To me the NBA looks like the late 80s now, with all the top stars getting hurt, aging out, or both.  We have no Jordan to make up for the vacuum.  We may be heading into a early 2000s look where there are far fewer top 50 all time players than in the previous years.

The shift to total perimeter play has robbed the game of some its beauty.  Post play is a must.  There is a growing trend to come back to the post by a couple organizations.  All we need now is to develop a couple true big men and the league and college ball will come back to classic ball.  Post touches will end all this 1 on 1  and PnR play that bores everyone, and will make the 3 pointer even more valuable.  The shift to playing in "space" is over.  There is no more space left, only space is in the paint.

I don't think the players are physically brittle.  I think they are empowered, valued too much, and are told we would rather you sit and lose than win and risk injury.  It has made players like Kawhi, who 30 years ago would have never sat, take a whole series off and lose a championship window.  Why not when someone will pay me 30 mil to play next year and take off 1/4 of the games.

I think we will have some big time players coming up.  The Big French kid that played with Conklin will be a revelation.  For now though Giannis will be the top player until Doncic overtakes him.  I believe Donicic will be a top 10 all time player before his career is over and will win multiple titles and will end up dominating this talent lull we have.

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44 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

Are there players who are projected to be better than peak Lebron, Curry and Durant at their respective positions?  I'll wait.

That is a strange standard. But since you asked: Doncic, Trae Young, and Zion are three who look to have that trajectory. Others such as Tatum could too. If you want a fun exercise, go compare stats of Curry and Young. One thing you will see is it took Curry until his 7th season to average 25+ppg. Young did it in his 2nd and 3rd seasons.

Giannis is a 2-time MVP on the verge of winning his first championship at age 26. 

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22 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

The NBA shouldn't be looking to expand anywhere.  The on-the-court product is watered down as it is.  I think we're looking at an early 1970s situation where a lot of Hall of Famers are on their way out of the league and there aren't enough rising stars in the league to replace them.  The solution in 1976 was the ABA merger but there is no ABA to replenish the NBA this time around.

Two words: Jordan Goodwin.

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15 hours ago, 3star_recruit said:

Are there players who are projected to be better than peak Lebron, Curry and Durant at their respective positions?  I'll wait.

Zion Williamson is young, no one knows what he will become, but he is the love child of Michael Jordan and Shaquille O’neal, so there is that.

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1 hour ago, AnkielBreakers said:

Zion Williamson is young, no one knows what he will become, but he is the love child of Michael Jordan and Shaquille O’neal, so there is that.

Until Zion starts rebounding his stardom means nothing to me.  All hype. Blake Griffin 2.0.

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12 minutes ago, thetorch said:

Until Zion starts rebounding his stardom means nothing to me.  All hype. Blake Griffin 2.0.

That is a little harsh. He averaged 27 pts on 61% shooting. That was the best in the NBA for anyone scoring over 20 pts. Giannis was next at 56%. Certainly, more rebounds, true, but it was Zion’s second year, right? Who else has done anything better than that in the NBA?

That team should focus on getting more rebounding. Trade some players, or maybe draft the best rebounding combo guard of the last 20 years. Something. :)

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17 minutes ago, AnkielBreakers said:

That is a little harsh. He averaged 27 pts on 61% shooting. That was the best in the NBA for anyone scoring over 20 pts. Giannis was next at 56%. Certainly, more rebounds, true, but it was Zion’s second year, right? Who else has done anything better than that in the NBA?

That team should focus on getting more rebounding. Trade some players, or maybe draft the best rebounding combo guard of the last 20 years. Something. :)

Sounds like they need Willie Reed. 

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26 minutes ago, AnkielBreakers said:

That is a little harsh. He averaged 27 pts on 61% shooting. That was the best in the NBA for anyone scoring over 20 pts. Giannis was next at 56%. Certainly, more rebounds, true, but it was Zion’s second year, right? Who else has done anything better than that in the NBA?

That team should focus on getting more rebounding. Trade some players, or maybe draft the best rebounding combo guard of the last 20 years. Something. :)

61%   all i ever see him do on espn highlights is dunk.  shouldnt his % be higher?

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29 minutes ago, AnkielBreakers said:

That is a little harsh. He averaged 27 pts on 61% shooting. That was the best in the NBA for anyone scoring over 20 pts. Giannis was next at 56%. Certainly, more rebounds, true, but it was Zion’s second year, right? Who else has done anything better than that in the NBA?

That team should focus on getting more rebounding. Trade some players, or maybe draft the best rebounding combo guard of the last 20 years. Something. :)

After writing this and looking at the Pelicans depth chart, they are definitely a team that should take a runner on Goodwin. As a backup to Bledsoe, with a 5% chance to replace him. Why not. What second round draft option would be a better fit for their long term?

They need a good court-stretching, rebounding PF/center. That is not coming in round 2.

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1 hour ago, AnkielBreakers said:

That is a little harsh. He averaged 27 pts on 61% shooting. That was the best in the NBA for anyone scoring over 20 pts. Giannis was next at 56%. Certainly, more rebounds, true, but it was Zion’s second year, right? Who else has done anything better than that in the NBA?

That team should focus on getting more rebounding. Trade some players, or maybe draft the best rebounding combo guard of the last 20 years. Something. :)

I didn't anoint him as the 2nd coming.  It is a huge hole in his game.  A guy who plays so close to the basket almost has to avoid rebounds to not get more than 7 a game.  Every player he is like averaged double figure rebounding.  Fact is he's been hurt, he's afraid of contact and he plays soft.  He makes the highlight plays.  I mean Lebron averaged more rebounds in his 2nd season than Zion did.  Right now he's more of a Chris Webber/Blake Griffin type than a top 25 franchise player the way he plays.

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1 hour ago, thetorch said:

I didn't anoint him as the 2nd coming.  It is a huge hole in his game.  A guy who plays so close to the basket almost has to avoid rebounds to not get more than 7 a game.  Every player he is like averaged double figure rebounding.  Fact is he's been hurt, he's afraid of contact and he plays soft.  He makes the highlight plays.  I mean Lebron averaged more rebounds in his 2nd season than Zion did.  Right now he's more of a Chris Webber/Blake Griffin type than a top 25 franchise player the way he plays.

Giannis averaged 4 rebounds in his second year, at 31 minutes per game. Zion averaged 7.

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9 minutes ago, AnkielBreakers said:

Giannis averaged 4 rebounds in his second year, at 31 minutes per game. Zion averaged 7.

Giannis was a 6'10 200 lb stringbean his second year.  After the greatest body transformation of an NBA player I've ever seen, he's literally a different person.

I agree that that it's too early to say what kind of rebounder Zion will be.  But comparing his potential path forward to a condor with a 7-4 inch wingspan is comparing apples to oranges.  The guys similar in stature to Zion -- Charles Barkley, Larry Johnson -- were double digit rebounders in their second year.  Of course, they were older.  We'll see what Zion does on the glass at the same age. 

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17 hours ago, thetorch said:

I didn't anoint him as the 2nd coming.  It is a huge hole in his game.  A guy who plays so close to the basket almost has to avoid rebounds to not get more than 7 a game.  Every player he is like averaged double figure rebounding.  Fact is he's been hurt, he's afraid of contact and he plays soft.  He makes the highlight plays.  I mean Lebron averaged more rebounds in his 2nd season than Zion did.  Right now he's more of a Chris Webber/Blake Griffin type than a top 25 franchise player the way he plays.

Zion was 22nd in the leage in offensive rebound percentage ahead of guys like Joel Embiid and Bam Adebayo.  Bruce Brown tied with him and he is the only guy shorter than Zion tied or higher on the O reb % leaders.  However, Zion was only 83rd in defensive rebounding percentage.  He's behind among others Steph Curry, Tyler Herro, and James Harden.  Even on the Pelicans he is behind Josh Hart and Steven Adams with Lonzo Ball and Brandon Ingram right on his heels.  

Admittedly I did not watch much Pelican basketball this past season.  However, those stats tell me that Zion's overall lack of defensive rebounding likely has more to do with their team rebounding scheme than Zion himself.  Perhaps New Orleans' plan has been for Zion let another guy grab the rebound and then streak down the court trying to get a fast break opportunity (where he can uncork one of his highlight reel dunks).

I do think that some of what you're saying about Zion is true (rebounding looks like a hole in his game, playing soft / afraid of injury).  I'm just saying the basic stats may be a little deceiving.

That being said, I think Zion needs to work on defense the most.  If New Orleans is going to play him as a forward, he has to be able to guard on the perimeter.  His freakish size and athleticism allowed him to be a good defender in college, but he's been pretty mediocre in the NBA.  

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A great end to a crappy season.

Giannis is the first player to score 50 to win the NBA championship since Bob Pettit had 58 for the St. Louis Hawks.

This is the start of Giannis' legacy now.  I feel like he's been overlooked the past couple years, maybe outside of the discussion as a top 5 player.  Now this cements his status as the top talent in the league.  

While I like Chris Paul I feel he has been way overrated in his career, partially thanks to his outsized 07-08 season which is adored by advanced stats geeks.  Great player, HOFer, but he's a loser and a choke artist. No way he deserves to be considered the 2nd best PG of all time.  This keeps him firmly behind Thomas in my book and a dead heat or slightly behind Stockton. 

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1 hour ago, thetorch said:

A great end to a crappy season.

Giannis is the first player to score 50 to win the NBA championship since Bob Pettit had 58 for the St. Louis Hawks.

This is the start of Giannis' legacy now.  I feel like he's been overlooked the past couple years, maybe outside of the discussion as a top 5 player.  Now this cements his status as the top talent in the league.  

While I like Chris Paul I feel he has been way overrated in his career, partially thanks to his outsized 07-08 season which is adored by advanced stats geeks.  Great player, HOFer, but he's a loser and a choke artist. No way he deserves to be considered the 2nd best PG of all time.  This keeps him firmly behind Thomas in my book and a dead heat or slightly behind Stockton. 

And Dennis & Kevin Johnson, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash, Allen Iverson, Gary Payton. 
These guys wouldn’t let Chris Paul carry their jockstrap. 

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4 hours ago, thetorch said:

A great end to a crappy season.

Giannis is the first player to score 50 to win the NBA championship since Bob Pettit had 58 for the St. Louis Hawks.

This is the start of Giannis' legacy now.  I feel like he's been overlooked the past couple years, maybe outside of the discussion as a top 5 player.  Now this cements his status as the top talent in the league.  

While I like Chris Paul I feel he has been way overrated in his career, partially thanks to his outsized 07-08 season which is adored by advanced stats geeks.  Great player, HOFer, but he's a loser and a choke artist. No way he deserves to be considered the 2nd best PG of all time.  This keeps him firmly behind Thomas in my book and a dead heat or slightly behind Stockton. 

Same guy who has been using Blake Griffin as an example of an overrated / non-superstar player is also crapping on Chris Paul as a choke artist....🤔 

Paul has never been on a great team / team that has been a prohibitive championship favorite.  His best teams were the Rockets teams and they lost twice to one of the greatest teams ever assembled (KD Warriors).  In one of those years they might have won if Paul didn't get hurt.  He's 6 foot nothing / not a prolific scorer, so can't dominate a game on both ends of the floor like Giannis just did.  He's still a great player / HOF like you said.  His reputation as a loser / choke artist is more outstated than him being overrated IMO.  He's had some terrible injury luck in the playoffs (both him & his teammates), but I think the choke artist thing is unfair.

Regarding all time PG rankings, are you just forgetting Magic Johnson or not considering him a PG?  What about Oscar Robertson?  Are we only ranking small PGs?  I'm honestly not sure Chris Paul is definitely a top 5 PG of all time, but he's still a phenomenal player.  You can make arguments for Magic, Oscar, Thomas, Stockton, Curry, Nash, Kidd, Jerry West and Walt Frazier over him.  

 

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13 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

Same guy who has been using Blake Griffin as an example of an overrated / non-superstar player is also crapping on Chris Paul as a choke artist....🤔 

Paul has never been on a great team / team that has been a prohibitive championship favorite.  His best teams were the Rockets teams and they lost twice to one of the greatest teams ever assembled (KD Warriors).  In one of those years they might have won if Paul didn't get hurt.  He's 6 foot nothing / not a prolific scorer, so can't dominate a game on both ends of the floor like Giannis just did.  He's still a great player / HOF like you said.  His reputation as a loser / choke artist is more outstated than him being overrated IMO.  He's had some terrible injury luck in the playoffs (both him & his teammates), but I think the choke artist thing is unfair.

Regarding all time PG rankings, are you just forgetting Magic Johnson or not considering him a PG?  What about Oscar Robertson?  Are we only ranking small PGs?  I'm honestly not sure Chris Paul is definitely a top 5 PG of all time, but he's still a phenomenal player.  You can make arguments for Magic, Oscar, Thomas, Stockton, Curry, Nash, Kidd, Jerry West and Walt Frazier over him.  

 

when torch said "second best pg" i assumed he meant oscar or magic would be #1.   my question is how the other isnt #2?  personally i am preferential to Oscar as #1.   imo Oscar is #2 greatest player of all time deferring to jordan for #1.  he was mr triple double before that was even a thing.  

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1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

when torch said "second best pg" i assumed he meant oscar or magic would be #1.   my question is how the other isnt #2?  personally i am preferential to Oscar as #1.   imo Oscar is #2 greatest player of all time deferring to jordan for #1.  he was mr triple double before that was even a thing.  

Not only that, the 3-point line wasn’t even a thing. Can you imagine the final tally with the 3-ball in play for Oscar?

You could arguably make him 1c to Kareem 1b and Jordan being 1a. Oscar won, scored and thrived at every level - from high school, college and pros. Got to the Final Four in 58 & 59. Won a gold medal for Christ sake at the 60 Rome games, 71 champs in Milwaukee. 

The man did it all. 
 

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  • 3 months later...
On 7/21/2021 at 11:04 AM, billiken_roy said:

when torch said "second best pg" i assumed he meant oscar or magic would be #1.   my question is how the other isnt #2?  personally i am preferential to Oscar as #1.   imo Oscar is #2 greatest player of all time deferring to jordan for #1.  he was mr triple double before that was even a thing.  

oscar is my number one, jordan has the rings, but i think the big o was the best overall

 

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11 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Enes Kanter actually understands what speaking truth to power is and he doesn't give an F about what speaking out about China will cost him.  

 

Dude I'm out of reactions but Enes Kanter is the man. China's out of control and I'm happy to see someone not afraid of Lebron and speaking their mind

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16 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Enes Kanter actually understands what speaking truth to power is and he doesn't give an F about what speaking out about China will cost him.  

 

Pretty incredible guy. 
He has had 9 arrest warrants issued for him in Turkey for speaking out against Turkish government. 

His father was arrested and sentenced to 15 years in prison in retaliation against Kanter.

They won’t show any of his games in Turkey.

He has family still there and he can’t ever go back to see them. 
 

 

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7 minutes ago, Bills By 40 said:

Dude I'm out of reactions but Enes Kanter is the man. China's out of control and I'm happy to see someone not afraid of Lebron and speaking their mind

It is so refreshing.  This isn't the first time Kanter has done something like this either.  Kanter is banned from Turkey (the country he was raised in) and Turkey wants him arrested because of his outspokenness about Erdoğan.

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