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Goodwin & French put names in draft


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Just now, Reinert310 said:

Even with a defender, how often do you stand around for. 30 seconds or a minute thinking about everything that could go wrong with your shot, all the moving parts that have to go right if the shot is going to go in, right before you shoot? Basically never. It’s not that Has can’t hit free throws. If you watch him warmup, he’s more than capable of hitting 60+%. Nobody is claiming Has is gonna turn into Reggie Miller, but there’s huge difference in taking the 2 shots.

It’s the same reason coaches ice kickers at the end of games. It’s a lot harder when you have to think about it.

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3 minutes ago, Reinert310 said:

Even with a defender, how often do you stand around for. 30 seconds or a minute thinking about everything that could go wrong with your shot, all the moving parts that have to go right if the shot is going to go in, right before you shoot? Basically never. It’s not that Has can’t hit free throws. If you watch him warmup, he’s more than capable of hitting 60+%. Nobody is claiming Has is gonna turn into Reggie Miller, but there’s huge difference in taking the 2 shots.

He is a bad at free throws during live game situations, just like he is bad at jumpers during live game situations. And that's okay! Frankly, we have zero need for him to develop a jumper, although I would be ecstatic for him if he were able to do so. 

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1 hour ago, Crewsorlose said:

This. 2019 Thatch > 2019 Jacobs; 2020 Jacobs > 2019 Thatch. 

Jacobs may only have been better than Fred because Fred only played in 4 games.  But even in the first 4 games, Fred came out firing, scoring double digits in 2 of the first 3 games. 

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3 minutes ago, BilliesBy40 said:

He is a bad at free throws during live game situations, just like he is bad at jumpers during live game situations. And that's okay! Frankly, we have zero need for him to develop a jumper, although I would be ecstatic for him if he were able to do so. 

I can't remember him taking a jump shot.

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Just now, BilliesBy40 said:

You know icing the kicker doesn't work, right?

I’ve seen plenty of kickers miss after being iced. But it’s besides the point. It’s the same reason coaches keep players on the line when their teammate gets fouls with no time left on the clock. There’s a very really and tangible psychological effect to standing on the line, all eyes on you, and everybody thinks it’s so easy, especially for a guy who has consistently been a bad free throw shoot. Every free throw he misses, the pressure increases. Whereas if Perkins misses a free throw, he doesn’t think twice about it.

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5 minutes ago, johnbj14 said:

That’s objectively false. Kick % following timeout ice situations are lower than standard FG attempts. 

Edit: Deleting since off-topic. It's a fascinating question, and those interested can google it to read on their own.

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4 minutes ago, wgstl said:

Jacobs may only have been better than Fred because Fred only played in 4 games.  But even in the first 4 games, Fred came out firing, scoring double digits in 2 of the first 3 games. 

That might be the case from points scored, but he shot 33% from the field and 16% from 3 in those 4 games. Small sample size, but over his two years, DJ appears to be the bigger offensive threat. And once again, as I do often in this debate, I will say I like Thatch and think he’s a big part of the program moving forward. 

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Just now, BilliesBy40 said:

It's off-topic, but it's an interesting discussion. There is a lot of debate about it in the statistical community. Most agree (including Freakonomics and ESPN) it is an ineffective strategy. 

I’d also argue it also depends on the player. It is obviously going be less effective to ice Adam Venitieri than it would be to ice whatever kicker is kicking for the Bears that day. If Jimerson misses a free throw, he wouldn’t even think twice about it. But for French, who has national press discussing what a horrible free throw shooter he is, the pressure weighs on you every time you get fouled. There’s almost zero pressure on French if he takes a spot up jumper and no time to think about it before hand.

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6 minutes ago, Reinert310 said:

I’ve seen plenty of kickers miss after being iced. But it’s besides the point. It’s the same reason coaches keep players on the line when their teammate gets fouls with no time left on the clock. There’s a very really and tangible psychological effect to standing on the line, all eyes on you, and everybody thinks it’s so easy, especially for a guy who has consistently been a bad free throw shoot. Every free throw he misses, the pressure increases. Whereas if Perkins misses a free throw, he doesn’t think twice about it.

Let's bookmark this thread and come back to it in March. I'll wager a cold one at Chaifetz that we don't see a statistically significant increase in jumpers taken or made by French. 

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Just now, BilliesBy40 said:

Let's bookmark this thread and come back to it in March. I'll wager a cold one at Chaifetz that we don't see a statistically significant increase in jumpers taken or made by French. 

Oh, I totally agree with that, and I agree that we don’t need or even really want him taking jumpers (especially since Bell showed at least some capabilities at the mid-range game at the end of last season). But if he ever wants to play in the NBA (regardless of how realistic we think those chances are), he’s gonna need a jumper. I’d argue it would be easier to develop a mid-range jumper than it would be for him to drastically improve his free throw shooting, because of that mental block.

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5 minutes ago, johnbj14 said:

That might be the case from points scored, but he shot 33% from the field and 16% from 3 in those 4 games. Small sample size, but over his two years, DJ appears to be the bigger offensive threat. And once again, as I do often in this debate, I will say I like Thatch and think he’s a big part of the program moving forward. 

Thats a disadvantage for Fred imo, didn't get a chance to get any rhythm. Also if you remove the Tulane game, Jacobs shot 33% on the year from 3. 

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Both Thatch and Jacobs are somewhat unknowns this season even assuming perfect health (Thatch because of missing last year and Jacobs because of his inconsistencies).  If Thatch returns to a full healthy season, I like his game much better than Jacobs.  I say this, because I think that Thatch has the ability to perform offensively at the same level as Jacobs.  Jacobs' upside on defense doesn't approach what Thatch does. 

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If Fred is healthy there is no comparison... Fred is a great athlete with a high level desire and motor. Jacobs was nicknamed the ghost by many as his tendency to disappear in games was noteworthy. Yes he has talent but I would take Fred if healthy and I don't think it is even close. 

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41 minutes ago, billikenblue said:

If Fred is healthy there is no comparison... Fred is a great athlete with a high level desire and motor. Jacobs was nicknamed the ghost by many as his tendency to disappear in games was noteworthy. Yes he has talent but I would take Fred if healthy and I don't think it is even close. 

I think this is a fair assessment, but let’s remember that Jacobs was just a sophomore last year and hardly played his freshman year. If his aggressiveness ever catches up with his raw talent, he will be an incredible player. I know that’s a big if at this point. But he was exponentially better last year than he was his freshman year.

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1 hour ago, Reinert310 said:

I think this is a fair assessment, but let’s remember that Jacobs was just a sophomore last year and hardly played his freshman year. If his aggressiveness ever catches up with his raw talent, he will be an incredible player. I know that’s a big if at this point. But he was exponentially better last year than he was his freshman year.

Jacobs has a well-defined skillset.  In the halfcourt, he's a good spot-up shooter and if you run out at him, he's is capable of taking a couple of dribbles to get to the basket.  He's not going to create his own shot when closely guarded and if he's on the move he rarely passes it.  When Jacobs doesn't score early, either by hitting that spot up jumper or driving baseline, or we're not getting easy buckets in transition, that's when he "disappears" on offense. 

Guys who can consistently create their own shot (Perkins), knock down shots from anywhere (Jimerson), or are always around the ball (Goodwin, French) are consistent offensive players. Everybody else is at the mercy of what the defense gives them.

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8 hours ago, wgstl said:

Jacobs may only have been better than Fred because Fred only played in 4 games.  But even in the first 4 games, Fred came out firing, scoring double digits in 2 of the first 3 games. 

That's true. I think Fred would have had a better season. But he still missed a season of development. And what Jacobs brought in 2020 was better than what Thatch brought in 2019. How will they develop over the summer? How will they fit in to the new team? Will Jacobs be able to run the point smoothly if Yuri is out? Will Thatch be more of a threat on offense? Will Jacobs disappear less frequently? These are unknowns. 

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20 hours ago, johnbj14 said:

That might be the case from points scored, but he shot 33% from the field and 16% from 3 in those 4 games. Small sample size, but over his two years, DJ appears to be the bigger offensive threat. And once again, as I do often in this debate, I will say I like Thatch and think he’s a big part of the program moving forward. 

The fact that he was playing sick at that time has to be took into account.  

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Believe unfair comments and comparisons being made to BOTH Thatch and Jacobs.

Fred was a tweener in high school who used his speed, strength and height to score - and he scored a lot. He joined our team with a lot of Senior/upper class leadership and did whatever it took to play -- relentless, hard-nosed defense and he rebounded better than most upper class guards not named Goodwin.   His weakness as a true Freshman? probably the lack of a deadly perimeter/3 point shot and the lack of PG skills -- both skills not unusual for Freshmen.  Hell most Freshmen barely get off the bench and can barely defend their own man much less becomes a defensive specialist.  And by all accounts, Fred improved on his weaknesses and came back last year a new player -- all ready to be an offensive player instead of solely a defensive specialist - but his season never really got started due to medical issues.

Jacobs came to SLU, like Fred, with impressive high school skills  Like Fred, Jacobs faced the same Senior/upper class dominated players, also tried to find a way to play and be a factor, but unlike Fred, he lacked the strength of Fred and he sustained injuries.   Had our team not been so shallow and one-dimensional due to Situation 2, Jacobs would have redshirted or would have sat the bench with no expectations of his playing.   Instead, we were short-handed and we lacked perimeter shooting so we looked to Jacobs - a Freshman - for immediate help.   And in response, we saw a deer-in-the-headlights look, together with non-muscular frame, and we wrote him off as a guy who won't make it here at SLU.  Then, after he matures, heals and undergoes his own "Conklin summer" and becomes a starter, we then place more undue expectations upon him.  Our team again desperately needed an outside shooter -- and unfortunately Jacobs was not able to be that guy each and every game (though he did carry us in some games and he did dominate in parts of certain games) in his first season of real playing time   Again, a lot to expect of a Sophomore.  Most of the time, this role falls upon the best guard (Goodwin) and the upper class guards (Goodwin, Weaver) or is shared by the others -- but Goodwin is not a perimeter shooter, Tay Weaver had some limitations and was adjusting himself when Fred (1 of our Big 3) sustained medical issues and Jimerson broke his foot.  As a result, we put unfair pressure on Jacobs for the second year in a row.  Why can't we be happy that Jacobs, as a Sophomore, became a starter/contributing role player for us.

Next year:  Jacobs will be a Junior -- an upper class leader.  No more excuses for him from me.   Normally, I would say the same about Fred -- though he missed last year and, unfortunately, will never be 100% from a medical standpoint.  Though next year, we will have a diverse team including outside shooters and Jacobs and Thatch will be able to be -- Jacobs and Thatch.

 

 

  

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While it’s hard to disagree with the above post re Thatch and Jacobs, it does seem Jacobs has difficulty with asserting himself into every game. Look at JGood, and granted he’s exceptional when it comes to intensity level, for a comparison. We don’t expect the same level from Jacobs, but neither should we expect his disappearing act in some games. There may be reasons for it, ie matchups or schemes, but I think it has more to do with attitude and motivation. The talent’s there, but is the desire there as well? 

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1 hour ago, slu72 said:

While it’s hard to disagree with the above post re Thatch and Jacobs, it does seem Jacobs has difficulty with asserting himself into every game. Look at JGood, and granted he’s exceptional when it comes to intensity level, for a comparison. We don’t expect the same level from Jacobs, but neither should we expect his disappearing act in some games. There may be reasons for it, ie matchups or schemes, but I think it has more to do with attitude and motivation. The talent’s there, but is the desire there as well? 

If your strengths as a 6'2 185lb player are jumping and spot up shooting, you're going to disappear in games.  Those two things are too easy to take away.

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Jacobs' improvement from one year to the next was instrumental for the team's success this year, and not entirely anticipated. Let's see what he brings in 2020-21. My only point is that it's not a given that Thatch will play more and be better than Jacobs, even though, based on their first years at SLU, it seemed obvious that Fred would be the better Billiken. It's great to have two guards that talented, alongside a ridiculous team.

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1 hour ago, Crewsorlose said:

Jacobs' improvement from one year to the next was instrumental for the team's success this year, and not entirely anticipated. Let's see what he brings in 2020-21. My only point is that it's not a given that Thatch will play more and be better than Jacobs, even though, based on their first years at SLU, it seemed obvious that Fred would be the better Billiken. It's great to have two guards that talented, alongside a ridiculous team.

The biggest difference between Jacobs' strengths and Thatch's strengths, defense and rebounding, is that Thatch's strengths are nearly impossible for the opposing team to take away. 

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