Big East Break-Up Thread (Merged)

[brianstl]

I will give Dayton this, the have a group of administrators and fans that do a good job of trying to set the narrative. I still would be suprised if Dayton got the nod ahead of SLU.

[Box and Won]

SLU provides a larger media market

Not only is St. Louis a larger media market than Dayton, Dayton and Cincinnati overlap.

[AGB91]

We need to get the good doctor and his wallet involved soon.

[JMM28]

I could make an argument for Bradley's inclusion using the stats that grosser posted in favor of Dayton. None of those really matter.

If Dayton is involved it is because X demanded that they had to be. There is no other appeal to adding Dayton over SLU.

[joe_davola]

I could make an argument for Bradley's inclusion using the stats that grosser posted in favor of Dayton. None of those really matter.

If Dayton is involved it is because X demanded that they had to be. There is no other appeal to adding Dayton over SLU.

To be honest though, I don't think Xavier has much of a say in what goes down with this. Are they going to go to the BE and say, we aren't coming unless you take Dayton? I think X is looking out for themselves as they should be. I think the existing BE schools will dictate who gets in. All teams being recruited should be happy they are being asked to join. I guess X could say they won't go unless D goes, but I don't think that would be wise on their part to stay in the A10 based upon that and then allow the next top 3-5 teams leave from the A-10. Just my opinion.

[Cowboy]

-how about a 10 team league allows for playing each team twice in a bball season?

[Cowboy]

Fr. B and May should have their butts on a plane as I type doing a whirlwind tour of Beast Presidents and pleading our case. We've had a lot of disappointments being Billiken fans over the years waiting for us to be a Top 50 program. Yes, we made strides w/ the Fetz and hiring RM, bet being left out of this would be a dagger to the heart for us fans.

And you can bet RM would have been working the phones to ESPN, Beast Coaches, et al lobbying to make sure the Bills were in the final mix. Pitino did it when he wanted UL out of CUSA.

What doesn't make sense to me in all of this is why only add 3 teams? It doesn't make sense. As for Brey, he was the one who mentioned on Sunday the 7 were looking for the conference to be all Catholic. If so, that would eliminate Butler so SLU and Butler would be left to battle it out.

-the time to make our case, imo, has been over the years, yeah we need to be very, very proactive now, but this is like cramming for a final, if you studied all semester you would be in better shape but progress can be made in the 11th hour

-I sure hope FrB has an excellent relationship with his peers at Gtwn and Marq and that can't be established in a day

[Cowboy]

To be honest though, I don't think Xavier has much of a say in what goes down with this. Are they going to go to the BE and say, we aren't coming unless you take Dayton? I think X is looking out for themselves as they should be. I think the existing BE schools will dictate who gets in. All teams being recruited should be happy they are being asked to join. I guess X could say they won't go unless D goes, but I don't think that would be wise on their part to stay in the A10 based upon that and then allow the next top 3-5 teams leave from the A-10. Just my opinion.

-I agree that it would be shocking if X is trying to bring SVU with them and the existing Beast schools are calling the shots as to who gets to dance with them

[Box and Won]

To be honest though, I don't think Xavier has much of a say in what goes down with this. Are they going to go to the BE and say, we aren't coming unless you take Dayton? I think X is looking out for themselves as they should be. I think the existing BE schools will dictate who gets in. All teams being recruited should be happy they are being asked to join. I guess X could say they won't go unless D goes, but I don't think that would be wise on their part to stay in the A10 based upon that and then allow the next top 3-5 teams leave from the A-10. Just my opinion.

++

[JMM28]

To be honest though, I don't think Xavier has much of a say in what goes down with this. Are they going to go to the BE and say, we aren't coming unless you take Dayton? I think X is looking out for themselves as they should be. I think the existing BE schools will dictate who gets in. All teams being recruited should be happy they are being asked to join. I guess X could say they won't go unless D goes, but I don't think that would be wise on their part to stay in the A10 based upon that and then allow the next top 3-5 teams leave from the A-10. Just my opinion.

I agree with you 100% on this. My point was that SLU is much more attractive than Dayton, and that is the only scenario I could see making a UD over SLU choice a reality based on a 10 team league.

[moytoy12]

To be honest though, I don't think Xavier has much of a say in what goes down with this. Are they going to go to the BE and say, we aren't coming unless you take Dayton? I think X is looking out for themselves as they should be. I think the existing BE schools will dictate who gets in. All teams being recruited should be happy they are being asked to join. I guess X could say they won't go unless D goes, but I don't think that would be wise on their part to stay in the A10 based upon that and then allow the next top 3-5 teams leave from the A-10. Just my opinion.

I think X probably has some leverage, but they aren't going to advocate for Dayton at the expense of X's well being.

[joe_davola]

I think X probably has some leverage, but they aren't going to advocate for Dayton at the expense of X's well being.

X could definitely put on their poker face, but there is no doubt in my mind the BE would call them out. They know X will not stay in the A-10. I'm sure they will listen to their opinion and lobbying for a certain school, however, if the G-town and Marquette rumors are true in the fact they are lobbying for SLU...SLU will win this one over Dayton.

[The Dude]

-the time to make our case, imo, has been over the years, yeah we need to be very, very proactive now, but this is like cramming for a final, if you studied all semester you would be in better shape but progress can be made in the 11th hour

-I sure hope FrB has an excellent relationship with his peers at Gtwn and Marq and that can't be established in a day

Does Biondi have a good relationship with anyone? If this rests with Biondi they can leave the A-10 flags up - we ain't going anywhere.

[JMM28]

Here is a what if - X, Dayton, Butler are the 3 additions to the BE.

What does SLU do? What does the A10 do?

Would the A10 reach out to non FBS private schools like Creighton, Bradley, Valpo, Drake, and/or Evansville to bridge the gap in an effort to keep SLU? The A10 may very well lose more teams in the northeast when the BE schools do their poaching.

Would the MVC extend an invite to SLU at which time a SLU/Creighton pairing becomes pretty attractive for a future round of expansion to 12 teams in the BE?

[The Wiz]

There should be more clarity Monday. BE7 having another meeting Sat....ND & Lville meeting with the ACC on Sun about an early BEAST exit.

[moytoy12]

Here is a what if - X, Dayton, Butler are the 3 additions to the BE.

What does SLU do? What does the A10 do?

Would the A10 reach out to non FBS private schools like Creighton, Bradley, Valpo, Drake, and/or Evansville to bridge the gap in an effort to keep SLU? The A10 may very well lose more teams in the northeast when the BE schools do their poaching.

Would the MVC extend an invite to SLU at which time a SLU/Creighton pairing becomes pretty attractive for a future round of expansion to 12 teams in the BE?

I doubt many of the MVC teams would do much movement, especially if Creighton doesn't get poached. Why would they? The conference would be in the exact same position.

It seems to me that SLU's play would be either (1) stay in the A-10, get some NCAA invites and hopefully be the next girl selected to the Big East dance, or (2) accept an invite to the MVC and give up on this Catholic conference dream.

[Bay Area Billiken]

If SLU is left out for the time being, they would have the opportunity to be more dominant in the A10, which would give them a better brand in a couple of years after the new conference becomes stable and the rest of the conference landscape stabilizes. At that point, the new league could expand to 12+.

The two schools are more alike than you might think. Butler's market is #25 to SLU's #21. Not that much of a difference.

On another note, what's with the hate on Butler, Bay Area Billiken? Personally, I like having Butler and SLU in the same conference. Maybe that's selfish of me because I cheer for both teams and I'll get to watch them play each other twice this season. That said, I just don't see how SLU is a stronger program than Butler like you suggest.

SLU is 16-11 all time, but that's hardly relevant since the two teams have only played twice in the current millennium. Whether we like it or not, the conference carousel is driven by a "what have you done for me lately" mentality. The only meeting between the Billikens and the Bulldogs in the last ten years, Butler won 68-46. The time before that, SLU won 72-54. The two times before that, Butler won. However, this is getting into games in the early 90s/late 80s. Those games have zero impact on which of these two schools will be invited to a new conference.

You're right that SLU was in last year's tournament and Butler wasn't. However, in the last ten years, Butler has been to the tournament six times in comparison to the single appearance by the Billikens. Also, Butler has 15 wins in that time span, compared to SLU's lone victory.

SLU's media market is better than Butler's, but not by much. Also, Butler has garnered a more national audience over the past few years, thanks in large part to the national title game appearances.

A lot of those Butler NCAA appearances the last decade were at-large bids that were extended despite playing in the Horizon League, not because of it. 2003, 2007, and 2009 were all at-large bids, two of which resulted in sweet sixteen appearances. The years that Butler won the Horizon's auto-bid (so we don't know if they were good enough to have gotten in without winning the weak Horizon League)? 2011 - NCAA Runner-Up. 2010 - NCAA Runner-Up. 2008 - NCAA 2nd round loss to to 2 seed Tennessee in OT. Those teams would have gotten an at-large bid if necessary. Moreover, teams don't get single-digit seeds in the tournament unless they're good enough to get into the tournament regardless of whether or not they win their conference. The last time Butler had a double digit seed was in 2003. Butler was successful in spite of being in the Horizon, not because it was in the Horizon.

Response:

1. "Hate" is a strong word and inapplicable in this context. This is a comparison between two competitors.

2. Any claim that SLU can wait for new league expansion is off base. Now is the time to get in this new league. If Xavier, Dayton, and Butler are chosen and not SLU, the nearest A10 school to SLU would be Duquesne in Pittsburgh. SLU has been parked in the A10 since 2005. The A10 has proven to be a good league that has been getting better. But the candidates for the new league do not seem to want to stay behind in the A10.

By this logic, Butler can stay behind in the A10 that it just joined, "be more dominant" in a watered down A10, just like it was in the mid-major Horizon League after all the good teams left the MCC (the Horizon's former name).

3. The #21 media market (St. Louis) is better than the #25 media market. Advantage: SLU.

4. If for whatever reason you are going to state Butler's case on this Billikens.com board, at least state the correct facts. The last head to head meeting between SLU and Butler in men's basketball was on 12/27/03 ('03-'04 season), hence this "millenium" and this decade. SLU won easily 72-54. I was at the game and it was no contest. The difference in level of talent between the two teams was obvious that night. Advantage: SLU.

5. SLU's all-time 16-11 advantage, head to head, vs. Butler is highly relevant. That is the best comparison of all between these two particular schools, head to head competition, especially when they were in the same league. SLU was 12-8 vs. Butler when both were in the MCC (now known as the Horizon League) between the '82-'83 and '90-'91 seasons. That was not the Neanderthal Period, nor the Stone Age. Butler was never a league factor in those days. Rather, Butler was a team that we knew we could usually beat. Adding to the sample size: SLU is 15-10 vs. Butler since 1980. Advantage: SLU.

6. As for more recent Butler NCAA Automatics, those were obtained by winning the mid-major Horizon League Tournament. How many of those automatics would Butler have garnered in a tougher league? The Butler NCAA At Larges were built on a Horizon League resume, meaning regular season Horizon League wins. SLU has been in much tougher conferences than Butler ever since SLU left the MCC after the '90-'91 season. That cannot be reasonably disputed.

On another note, why are you defending Dayton on this Board? Let Dayton defend itself.

Finally, you have no reason to be concerned. Butler appears to be in.

[slufanskip]

How do the remaining candidates compare academically? I can't imagine the academic reputation of the school won't play a part in this

Are X and Butler done deals are specualtion?

[JMM28]

I doubt many of the MVC teams would do much movement, especially if Creighton doesn't get poached. Why would they? The conference would be in the exact same position.

It seems to me that SLU's play would be either (1) stay in the A-10, get some NCAA invites and hopefully be the next girl selected to the Big East dance, or (2) accept an invite to the MVC and give up on this Catholic conference dream.

The MVC also has a risk of losing ISU and SIU to the MAC soon.

If the A10 starts sniffing around some of the private MVC schools, or even the public schools, the MVC might have to make a preemptive strike and invite 2 schools to get to 12.

I don't think SLU can justify an A10 without Dayton, X, or Butler at this point.

Hopefully they just add SLU, Dayton, Creighton and be done with it.

[davidnark]

I don't have any inside information, but last night I read a number of articles from a number or sources, and I would be surprised if SLU doesn't land in the new conference. From what I have gathered from the credible media sources, the 7 schools are considering the following 3 new conference scenarios:

1. A nationwide Catholic Conference that would even include Gonazaga and St. Mary's. (per ESPN and NY Times http://www.nytimes.c...tball.html?_r=0). SLU is a given in this scenario, but Butler should be worried.

2. A 10-team MidWest/East Coast Private Conference that would include the 7 Big East Catholic Schools, plus Xavier, Butler, and either SLU, Creighton, Dayton, or VCU -- in that likely order (per Milwaukee Sentinel http://www.jsonline....-183439151.html). This is the most concerning scenario, but SLU's media market, facilities investment, and Jesuit affiliation appears to give it the advantage over the other three.

3. The same scenario is 2 above, except it would include 5 of the A-10/MVC schools for a 12-team conference. SLU would almost certainly be included. (Per SI http://sportsillustr...all/?eref=sihp.)

If I were a betting man, I would take scenario 3 above with Dayton and VCU being on the outside looking in.

[joe_davola]

I don't have any inside information, but last night I read a number of articles from a number or sources, and I would be surprised if SLU doesn't land in the new conference. From what I have gathered from the credible media sources, the 7 schools are considering the following 3 new conference scenarios:

1. A nationwide Catholic Conference that would even include Gonazaga and St. Mary's. (per ESPN and NY Times). SLU is a given in this scenario, but Butler should be worried.

2. A 10-team MidWest/East Coast Private Conference that would include the 7 Big East Catholic Schools, plus Xavier, Butler, and either SLU, Creighton, Dayton, or VCU -- in that likely order (per SI). This is the most concerning scenario, but SLU's media market, facilities investment, and Jesuit affiliation appears to give it the advantage over the other three.

3. The same scenario is 2 above, except it would include 5 of the A-10/MVC schools for a 12-team conference. SLU would almost certainly be included. (Also per SI.)

If I were a betting man, I would take scenario 3 above with Dayton and VCU being on the outside looking in.

Pretty much sums it up. In scenario three, who do you feel would be the fifth team if Dayton and VCU were left out? Creighton would be a given from the MVC...any other team you are thinking from the MVC?

[moytoy12]

Pretty much sums it up. In scenario three, who do you feel would be the fifth team if Dayton and VCU were left out? Creighton would be a given from the MVC...any other team you are thinking from the MVC?

Agreed on the summary and I also had the same question. Seems Dayton would likely be in for a 12 team conference; i'm not sure on VCU.

[ACE]

Here's what I would do - add Xavier, Butler, SLU, Creighton and Duquesne... I know the Dukes are a bad program, but it would help the Big East maintain a presence in the Pittsburth market. The Dukes would have to step up their facilities and commitment,

TWO DIVISIONS:

The West - Creighton, SLU, DePaul, Marquette, Xavier and Butler

The East - Georgetown, St. Jonn's, Providence, Villanova, Seton Hall and Duquesne

There it is. Done! Let's move on.

[davidnark]

Here's what I would do - add Xavier, Butler, SLU, Creighton and Duquesne... I know the Dukes are a bad program, but it would help the Big East maintain a presence in the Pittsburth market. The Dukes would have to step up their facilities and commitment,

TWO DIVISIONS:

The West - Creighton, SLU, DePaul, Marquette, Xavier and Butler

The East - Georgetown, St. Jonn's, Providence, Villanova, Seton Hall and Duquesne

There it is. Done! Let's move on.

I don't see any scenario that would include Duquense. It would either be VCU or Dayton.

[slu72]

-the time to make our case, imo, has been over the years, yeah we need to be very, very proactive now, but this is like cramming for a final, if you studied all semester you would be in better shape but progress can be made in the 11th hour

-I sure hope FrB has an excellent relationship with his peers at Gtwn and Marq and that can't be established in a day

If you've been in business you know how important personal relationships are. I too hope the good Fr B has schmoozed these guys over the years about including SLU in any conversations about the long hoped for Papal Conference.