Burwell: Billikens are doing their part, so where are the people?

[Cowboy]

Harvard has Jeremy Lin and are a school with tradition. Not a great comparison.

-i thought he was playing for the knicks

[jimbofive]

I loved RM's comment at the very end!!! Bunch of spoiled little brats!

i was gonna say, that put a big smile on my face. RM can keep on eating lunches as long as he keeps lappin' at the poooooooooooooooool...

[billikenfan05]

I'm sorry, I meant that Harvard students tend to take pride in their school, pride in SLU is almost nonexistent.

[bonwich]

Marketing doesn't make any difference. Taking care of the little stuff doesn't make any difference. Just win, baby. Blah, blah, blah. Uh huh.

Examples of "little stuff": crappy announcer -- last night's "Billiken Defense" when Richmond still had the ball and then scored was the quintessential Guy; new promotions -- hint: dump the stupid ball toss; lots of group promotions every single game -- I think it was Rammer who suggesting giving extra seats to Matthews-Dickey; GIVING AWAY ANY UNSOLD CENTER COURT TICKETS; etc.

As for students: Free food. And if Mardi Gras is really a freakin' impediment (what, we have that many hoosiers enrolled?), then make it a PROMOTION and give away Billiken Beads, then run BUSES to freakin' Soulard AFTER the game.

Just freakin' embarrassing.

[Deutschkind]

There will be a "tailgate" in the pavilion on Saturday for students from 11 till tip. This is more what they would do my Freshman and Sophomore years to get people in the seats.

Last year's Mardi Gras game was early, 1 PM, and that did probably interfere with the parade. This year it's late. Students can do their normal routine of kegs and eggs, parade, basketball game as a break from straight partying, then Saturday night. The only thing that should hold back student attendance will be that we're playing Fordham.

[Pistol]

I'm going to disagree with a lot of you about our athletic department's marketing. The AD (and school) have stepped up their marketing game in the past few years. People need to realize that there simply isn't the money to do more than what they have. The people in the AD right now are working very, very hard to put this program forward, but they aren't getting paid like their peers at BCS schools, they don't have those budgets to work with, and they don't have the advantage of a program that has been winning consistently.

There are little things that could be different, but hell, I just went to a game at Memphis, a state school, top-level program that plays in an NBA arena, and they have their own dog and pony show kind of stuff. I'm not saying all of this to stick up for anyone - there are only a few people left (Declan, Janet, and Fr. Grollmes) from my years (2001-2005), and are all doing a fine job at what they do - I just don't think that we're a few minor gameday experience tweaks away from selling out a season. Our closest peers are Dayton and Xavier, and I lived in Cincy for 3 years and have been to tons of games at each and can tell you that they're not doing anything in terms of marketing or gameday that SLU is not doing. I'd even argue SLU is doing more.

As for the students, I get it because I graduated not too long ago and I'm more than familiar with their long-standing apathy. Back then, though, the excuse was that games were inconvenient to get to because they were at Savvis/Scottrade. They're out of excuses now. They have free food given to them before games. All games are free, with a $10 fee baked deep into a bigger fee in a much bigger bill that their parents will never, ever notice. There is nothing more SLU can do for students; the culture needs to build up within them. They're going to continue to whine and ***** and moan about homework or frat/sorority meetings or whatever, but they're going to find excuses not to go. The culture simply has to change, and maybe someone (hint, hint) forcing the issue by bombing the campus with an open letter could be a good spark to get it going.

As for the community, I'm perplexed. SLU was top 10 in attendance throughout the 90s and this team is better than most of Spoon's teams, and probably just a slight notch down from his best couple teams- arguably. I don't know what people want.

[Box and Won]

I'm not saying all of this to stick up for anyone - there are only a few people left (Declan, Janet, and Fr. Grollmes) from my years (2001-2005), and are all doing a fine job at what they do

Grollmes has got to go if this program wants to make it to the next level.

[slu72 fan]

I'm going to disagree with a lot of you about our athletic department's marketing. The AD (and school) have stepped up their marketing game in the past few years. People need to realize that there simply isn't the money to do more than what they have. The people in the AD right now are working very, very hard to put this program forward, but they aren't getting paid like their peers at BCS schools, they don't have those budgets to work with, and they don't have the advantage of a program that has been winning consistently.

There are little things that could be different, but hell, I just went to a game at Memphis, a state school, top-level program that plays in an NBA arena, and they have their own dog and pony show kind of stuff. I'm not saying all of this to stick up for anyone - there are only a few people left (Declan, Janet, and Fr. Grollmes) from my years (2001-2005), and are all doing a fine job at what they do - I just don't think that we're a few minor gameday experience tweaks away from selling out a season. Our closest peers are Dayton and Xavier, and I lived in Cincy for 3 years and have been to tons of games at each and can tell you that they're not doing anything in terms of marketing or gameday that SLU is not doing. I'd even argue SLU is doing more.

As for the students, I get it because I graduated not too long ago and I'm more than familiar with their long-standing apathy. Back then, though, the excuse was that games were inconvenient to get to because they were at Savvis/Scottrade. They're out of excuses now. They have free food given to them before games. All games are free, with a $10 fee baked deep into a bigger fee in a much bigger bill that their parents will never, ever notice. There is nothing more SLU can do for students; the culture needs to build up within them. They're going to continue to whine and ***** and moan about homework or frat/sorority meetings or whatever, but they're going to find excuses not to go. The culture simply has to change, and maybe someone (hint, hint) forcing the issue by bombing the campus with an open letter could be a good spark to get it going.

As for the community, I'm perplexed. SLU was top 10 in attendance throughout the 90s and this team is better than most of Spoon's teams, and probably just a slight notch down from his best couple teams- arguably. I don't know what people want.

+1

[TVACH13]

I'm going to disagree with a lot of you about our athletic department's marketing. The AD (and school) have stepped up their marketing game in the past few years. People need to realize that there simply isn't the money to do more than what they have. The people in the AD right now are working very, very hard to put this program forward, but they aren't getting paid like their peers at BCS schools, they don't have those budgets to work with, and they don't have the advantage of a program that has been winning consistently.

There are little things that could be different, but hell, I just went to a game at Memphis, a state school, top-level program that plays in an NBA arena, and they have their own dog and pony show kind of stuff. I'm not saying all of this to stick up for anyone - there are only a few people left (Declan, Janet, and Fr. Grollmes) from my years (2001-2005), and are all doing a fine job at what they do - I just don't think that we're a few minor gameday experience tweaks away from selling out a season. Our closest peers are Dayton and Xavier, and I lived in Cincy for 3 years and have been to tons of games at each and can tell you that they're not doing anything in terms of marketing or gameday that SLU is not doing. I'd even argue SLU is doing more.

As for the students, I get it because I graduated not too long ago and I'm more than familiar with their long-standing apathy. Back then, though, the excuse was that games were inconvenient to get to because they were at Savvis/Scottrade. They're out of excuses now. They have free food given to them before games. All games are free, with a $10 fee baked deep into a bigger fee in a much bigger bill that their parents will never, ever notice. There is nothing more SLU can do for students; the culture needs to build up within them. They're going to continue to whine and ***** and moan about homework or frat/sorority meetings or whatever, but they're going to find excuses not to go. The culture simply has to change, and maybe someone (hint, hint) forcing the issue by bombing the campus with an open letter could be a good spark to get it going.

As for the community, I'm perplexed. SLU was top 10 in attendance throughout the 90s and this team is better than most of Spoon's teams, and probably just a slight notch down from his best couple teams- arguably. I don't know what people want.

Finally. Great post. Best part....

"they don't have the advantage of a program that has been winning consistently."

[sonoma bob]

One of the problems this year opposed to the Spoon years possibly is that the wrong games are being televised. The best situation would be only a few home games early in the year to get the team exposed to the casual fans and most all away and neutral court tournament games should be on local TV. Wasn't last nights game on channel 11? If you can sit home and watch why go in person, says the average lazy dork.

I wonder since I've been enjoying all the last 10 or so games on my computer if even the kids in the dorms are doing the same thing? I wouldn't be surprised, this is the wired generation.

It may take a few more years to turn things around for the masses. A good run in the Dance will help a lot next year.

[havelj]

The marketing isn't the issue. For the teams that played at home last night, note these attendance facts:

1. Illini-played to 2,000 fewer fans than last weekend game

2. ND-played to 2,000 fewer fans than last weekend game

3. UConn-played to 6,000 fewer fans than last weekend game

All three of these schools played crappy teams last night in addition to SLU's opponent; still *no excuse* for students not to go.

There are too many anti-social students with their participation trophies at mommy & daddy’s house who don’t care about winning & losing who are going to college now and just don’t get out much.

[kmbilliken]

And its been said before--what crowd there is, is dull and uninspired. I was under the basket (opposite the band) and it was like a morgue. An elderly lady turned and frowned as I was berating one of the refs. My son and I then moved to open seats two rows from the court.

Berating refs is widely tolerated and even encouraged in section 108.

[MusicCityBilliken]

Maybe we all are getting a kind of apathetic.

I recall 15 years ago when they had a Tip-Off meeting it would be SRO over at Humphreys and on this board we get an detailed report with analysis an hour or so after the meeting.

Now, nada.

[ucan2]

I would like to see them do Groupon or Living Social ticket promotions for every game. Not only does it give people a chance to just swoop up a ticket or two from the comfort of their laptop or smartphone, but it widens our potential target audience - not everyone in the STL area who has a Groupon account or the iPhone/Android app knows about SLU basketball. That's why the Dayton game sold so well. I was sitting in the very top row of Chaifetz and everyone around me said the same thing - "Groupon the ###### out of tickets next year."

Two cents.

I think that would be a good start. I just got a Groupon email for tickets to my local university's basketball games - $10 for 2 tickets up high or 1 ticket in the lower section. Who couldn't afford that? (And this is a PAC 12 school) Every additional ticket adds to the school's bottom line.

It's sad that SLU gets a big article in the PD, not for its win, but for its lousy attendance. Embarrassing. Sure wish I lived nearby & could come to the games. And I sure don't understand why students, who can get in for FREE, would rather stay away & watch videos or Netflix or play WII or whatever. Even if they're studying (yeah, right), they could take a 2 hour break a couple times a week. And it doesn't cost anything to be LOUD!!!

Go Bills!

[WestCoastBilliken]

Couple of problems (I am sure no one will agree with me):

1) We do not have the AMAZING tailgating events that other Universities have. Tailgates at a lot of the big name schools are like Mardi Gras... but every weekend.... SLU is not a party school and when a student does get a little wild / drunk / etc, they are usually shushed by other fans and if they continue they are asked to leave the arena (have seen this more times then I can count over my 4 years, including being kicked out happening to me 3xs). Nothing like a death glare from someone the age of your grandmother.

2) SLU is a 2nd choice school for a lot of kids. Unlike Kansas, Kansas State, Mizzou, etc, our students didn't grow up living and breathing SLU basketball and many students I met didnt have SLU down as their #1 choice. They applied to Ivy League or Notre Dame type Universities and were denied, leaving them with attending SLU. That is the reality of our University - most students dont grow up wanting to come to SLU because of tradition like they do with Notre Dame and we are too low academically to get anyone excited to attend SLU over a better school.

3) Lastly, our student body overall is just lame. Just a fact.

[sonoma bob]

Can you imagine what the attendance would be this year if Brad Beal was wearing Blue & White instead of orange & whatever down in Florida? When the Bills start getting the local BLUE CHIPPERS after a few years in the dance, there won't be enough seats to go around. Has Easy Ed's grandson committed yet?

[ACE]

Can you imagine what the attendance would be this year if Brad Beal was wearing Blue & White instead of orange & whatever down in Florida? When the Bills start getting the local BLUE CHIPPERS after a few years in the dance, there won't be enough seats to go around. Has Easy Ed's grandson committed yet?

Verbally committed to Butler. BTW, at the time Berry committed, I predicted that SLU would have a better team this season. What Butler did for two season was remarkable, but I questioned whether they would be able to have a sustained run like other mid-majors - Xavier and Gonzaga. I also wonder if Brad Stevens starts thinking about leaving now. There is already speculation that Illinois will take a look.

[Pistol]

Couple of problems (I am sure no one will agree with me):

1) We do not have the AMAZING tailgating events that other Universities have. Tailgates at a lot of the big name schools are like Mardi Gras... but every weekend.... SLU is not a party school and when a student does get a little wild / drunk / etc, they are usually shushed by other fans and if they continue they are asked to leave the arena (have seen this more times then I can count over my 4 years, including being kicked out happening to me 3xs). Nothing like a death glare from someone the age of your grandmother.

2) SLU is a 2nd choice school for a lot of kids. Unlike Kansas, Kansas State, Mizzou, etc, our students didn't grow up living and breathing SLU basketball and many students I met didnt have SLU down as their #1 choice. They applied to Ivy League or Notre Dame type Universities and were denied, leaving them with attending SLU. That is the reality of our University - most students dont grow up wanting to come to SLU because of tradition like they do with Notre Dame and we are too low academically to get anyone excited to attend SLU over a better school.

3) Lastly, our student body overall is just lame. Just a fact.

You're off base but I can only refute your first two points (and for the third, I'd call them lame mostly just as sports fans; I met some crazy ass individuals at SLU).

We don't have "AMAZING tailgating", but it's the middle of winter. No one does. Xavier's student section is jammed every night, and there's no tailgating scene there. Nor is there at any of the big SEC schools, which struggle to get students to attend (Kentucky excepted of course, and maybe Vandy), and those places are known for tailgating (i.e. college football) and nothing else. It isn't only 'party schools' who draw big attendance; the correlation with this and basketball is far, far weaker than in football.

KU and Mizzou are not first choice schools for everyone, either. Where I went to high school, some guys were joking around with this guy for being last in the class rankings, and he responded, "Yeah, well I'll just go to KU, then." And he did. Big state schools get a lot of kids who grew up in that state rooting for that school, but not nearly all of them.

And I don't buy at all that SLU students are just a bunch of rejects from top 50 schools. Most of the people I knew were from large metro areas in the Midwest, South, and Great Plains who applied to several schools along the lines of SLU, maybe with a 'reach' and a safety or two thrown in for good measure. They're choosing between SLU and places like Marquette, Dayton, Xavier, Rockhurst, and maybe a couple state schools and liberal arts colleges. I got into 5 other schools that I would consider near the level of SLU academically (Richmond, Butler, Santa Clara, DePauw, and Denver) and SLU beat the financial offer from the rest. I would have gone to Stanford if I got in, but I knew I was a long shot and would have several others to choose from. My experience seemed fairly typical for what SLU students went through, and I didn't meet many people at all who were stuck there as a safety because Northwestern, Princeton, and Duke said no thanks.

[kappy96]

Verbally committed to Butler. BTW, at the time Berry committed, I predicted that SLU would have a better team this season. What Butler did for two season was remarkable, but I questioned whether they would be able to have a sustained run like other mid-majors - Xavier and Gonzaga. I also wonder if Brad Stevens starts thinking about leaving now. There is already speculation that Illinois will take a look.

Butler would be a very different team right now with Shelvin Mack and Gordon Heyward as senior starters. There remarkable run came at a cost (early departures) but I don't think any Butler fans would change a thing. If Stevens can re-load and get them back to the Sweet 16 next year it might even be more remarkable.

[Box and Won]

I can't imagine anyone dreams of going to Dayton. Most people do because they're Catholic and they f-ed around too much in high school and didn't have the grades to go to a better school. And yet, they still have great student support and an energetic fan base. Maybe Dayton is appealing to jock dipsh!ts who support college athletics, I don't know.

Unless you go to Harvard, Yale, Princeton, and maybe Stanford, the chances are pretty good that a lot of the students at your school wish they were going somewhere else. Kids at Northwestern, Vanderbilt, Wash U. etc. wish they were Ivy Leaguers. Kids at Cornell, Brown, etc. wish they were at Harvard or Yale. Kids at SLU wish they were at Georgetown or Notre Dame.

[SShoe]

-the morning show on 590 spent 20 minutes or so talking about this just before 8am, it will be on their podcast if you care to listen, so we were on the airwaves

-but to save you the trouble, it was a re-hash of everything that has been discussed here last night, today and for the last however many years, about the program

Just listened to this and while I should probably be giving more credence to the conversation and the callers, some of them are just so extremely uninformed. It's beyond maddening.

Some examples:

"When was the last time you saw an A-10 team play another A-10 team on TV?" Answer, every weekend.

"We need to get teams like North Carolina to come play here." Yeah, because it's just that easy.

"You gotta score to win." Dude, we're 21-5 and beating teams by an average of 12 ppg.

[Duff Man]

While I'd like for more people to come to the games, I'm content to earn real fans a few dozen at a time than try and appeal to the thousands bandwagon jumping dipsh1ts (read: Mizzou 'fans') who will drop us at the first bump in the road.

re: overall attendance, lack of buzz

Myriad of factors...in no particular order

-SLU is being overshadowed by Mizzou and the Blues

-3 buzzkilling losses @LMU, vs Temple, @UMass gave people reason to tune out

-Casual fans are ignorant about the A10

-Challenging TV schedule

-SLU's appeal is very much a nuanced charm, much like an album or film that requires repeat viewings in order to be appreciated

Casual fans pay attention when we're undefeated, nationally ranked, beating 'name' opponents, and playing in the NCAA tournament. They don't care about our RPI, Kenpom rating, or place in the A10 standings. The media loves to hate on the A10...but to quote Michael Bolton...

Why should I change? He's the one who sucks.

The A10 is not the ideal conference - but ideal conference (e.g. the Great Midwest) no longer exists. SLU needs to be in a conference where they can earn at-large bids, and for the time being A10 is the best option available. As SLU is successful (read: NCAA tournament), more games will be televised on channels people can find, and the local casuals will come to appreciate the A10 for the nuanced stellar conference that it is.

re: the students

It can be debated until the end of time, but I don't think it's a good idea to give students free admission (or bundle it with tuition). We don't value things that are free the way we value things that cost money. Charge SOMETHING, just to get past the psychological effect of FREE = WORTHLESS. Plus, you can have one or two FREE STUDENT NIGHT promotions for less attractive games to draw them in - because then you've getting something for free that normally costs X dollars. You wonder why students only show up for half the games? It's because they view games as a social hang out spot they can hit up anytime.

I wouldn't be against giving free tickets to the first dozen students who show up, just to make sure we don't alienate the broke @ss die hard fans - but most students should have to pay some nominal cost for admission.

[ACE]

A lot of things happened following the heyday of Spoonball, but the decline actually slowly started happening right after Claggett and Waldman graduated. Spoon was unable to capitalize on that success with recruiting success. The next year, the team made the NIT (and probably didn't deserve it with a 16-14 record) and the year after that, the team was dreadful. Too many bad recruits. Just two years removed from the height of Spoonball, attendance started to drop. Then, Spoon hit the lottery by getting Hughes and attendance climbed back up. Then Hughes bolted after just one year and the momentum came to a grinding halt. I can't blame LR, but I recall Spoon saying that Larry was even better than they thought. They didn't think he would only be around for one season. Well, that set the program back. A very mediocre season the year after LH and attendance slowly started to dip again. Spoon retires and that hurts some more. Romar is hired and is pretty much unknown to most "casual" fans. While the Miracle in Memphis capped off his first season, it was very mediocre during the regular season with a 7-9 conference record. Then his next two years, the team gets progressively worse, no impact recruits are landed and interest continues to slowly decline. LR leaves and is replaced by an assistant who was part of a mediocre team. Not exactly a recipe for generating buzz. Plus BS was extremely dull. And then you couple that with leaving C-USA with high profile coaches like Pitino, Huggins and Calipari and you go to the A-10 where the "casual" fan has very little familiarity with... well, the interest in the program continues to erode. The product on the court remains mediocre and you throw in one disasterous seaon in the middle of that and the glory days of Spoonball became a distant memory. Somebody else mentioned it earlier... there is a lost generation of Billiken fans. Having a sustained run of success is the best way to build a new generation of fans. The key is that this can't be a two-year thing like Clag/Waldman, or a one year abberation with Larry or a "Miracle" in Memphis, this program needs to string together several consecutive years of success and truly build a program that not only competes for NCAA tourney bids, but does some damage when they get in. We are just at the beginning of what will hopefully be a new era in Billiken basketball.

[sonoma bob]

You summed it up Ace by hitting the old nail on the head. Well done. We are not casual fans, they say "show me", but they better not wait too long. I predict sell outs next year. If it wasn't for the situation last year, we wouldn't be having this conversation now.

[Billiken Rich]

A lot of things happened following the heyday of Spoonball, but the decline actually slowly started happening right after Claggett and Waldman graduated. Spoon was unable to capitalize on that success with recruiting success. The next year, the team made the NIT (and probably didn't deserve it with a 16-14 record) and the year after that, the team was dreadful. Too many bad recruits. Just two years removed from the height of Spoonball, attendance started to drop. Then, Spoon hit the lottery by getting Hughes and attendance climbed back up. Then Hughes bolted after just one year and the momentum came to a grinding halt. I can't blame LR, but I recall Spoon saying that Larry was even better than they thought. They didn't think he would only be around for one season. Well, that set the program back. A very mediocre season the year after LH and attendance slowly started to dip again. Spoon retires and that hurts some more.

Romar is hired and is pretty much unknown to most "casual" fans. While the Miracle in Memphis capped off his first season, it was very mediocre during the regular season with a 7-9 conference record. Then his next two years, the team gets progressively worse, no impact recruits are landed and interest continues to slowly decline. LR leaves and is replaced by an assistant who was part of a mediocre team. Not exactly a recipe for generating buzz. Plus BS was extremely dull. And then you couple that with leaving C-USA with high profile coaches like Pitino, Huggins and Calipari and you go to the A-10 where the "casual" fan has very little familiarity with... well, the interest in the program continues to erode. The product on the court remains mediocre and you throw in one disasterous seaon in the middle of that and the glory days of Spoonball became a distant memory. Somebody else mentioned it earlier... there is a lost generation of Billiken fans. Having a sustained run of success is the best way to build a new generation of fans. The key is that this can't be a two-year thing like Clag/Waldman, or a one year abberation with Larry or a "Miracle" in Memphis, this program needs to string together several consecutive years of success and truly build a program that competes that not only competes for NCAA tourney bids, but does some damage when they get in. We are just at the beginning of what will hopefully be a new era in Billiken basketball.

Said it all. We can close this thread now......