Willie Reed Sr. changes his tune

[kshoe]

I have been thinking the same thing. While it is easy to go through and pick out individual reasons for each player, which make sense, the numbers don't lie. We have more players transfer than stay, or at least we have so far under Majerus.

WR and KM and FJ are not transfers.

And since we should all have our facts straight, last year's class was 6, and 3 are still left. The other Reid being the player that doc has presumably forgotten.

So here are the numbers from the first two classes:

7 recruits:

2 still on roster

2 about to be on roster unless kangaroos f it up

1 injured and now team manager

1 quit 1 month in and not doing anything

1 quit and currently playing NAIA

6 recruits:

3 still on roster

1 concussed and now playing DII

1 left and not playing anywhere that I know of

1 left and enrolled at Ohio?

I count 8 of 13 still in the program as of early January*.

*again assuming the kangaroos don't f it up.

[Cowboy]

-doc - i can see your point and the numbers on players not here do not lie, but we knew that was going to happen to some degree with rm as our coach

-is our roster today where i thought it would be after rick got hired? nope, but with KM and WR it would be a lot better imo

-but i still believe rick is our best option to getting our name called by greg gumble (or whoever now) on that sunday

-in any case, there have been 10 of those tourneys without us and this yr would make it 11, getting our name called real soon would be real good for all involved

[Cowboy]

-one more thing on WR and KM coming back, rick has been saying more on this situation lately than he did earlier (i was impressed by his ability to stay silent)

-i don't want some whackjob to not allow WR and KM back in if the only reason would be rick said things he should not have said, so if he could go mum for a couple of weeks that might be good

-is this likely? i hope not but in my mind it is possible given what has happened

-there is a way for SLU to botch this and i hope they are not looking for that way

[Clock_Tower]

honestly, and with all due respect:

So; it sounds like I'm the only one noticing any trends here? again just numbers; 5 out of 12 remain, for whatever reasons. that is a horrible attrition rate for any program, actually it may be among THE worst in the nation since 2008; and as far as I can tell outside of one or 2 of these players (FJ for example), they all derive from some fairly alarming character issues. blame the "kangaroos" all you want, but there it is, guys.

here's one comment: "If u take away the top 2 players from any team it is easy to say we don't have the horses." Yes, it is easy. also correct in this case. ps -- please tell me another team whose 2 top players have been kicked out. or who has over 50% attrition rate like us. again, just by the numbers here, were getting pretty squeezed, horse-wise. Who should we blame, if not the current regime?

(and spare me the postmodern psycho-babble about "every program does this, every student does that," "who's to say what's right or wrong?" I'm weary of all the prevarications and pomp-- disguised as moral reasoning -- that has been pronounced on this board since about mid-October....)

Harry Truman: the buck stops here. I really am surprised nobody else is considering this angle. no more blue kool-aid for some of you! but I still want to know-- is there something fishy in here?

if you feel like a little "light" holiday reading, try Tom Wolfe's I AM CHARLOTTE SIMMONS; all the Duke haters will love it since it is based on Duke; it rants about these serious issues (and is very funny) much better than I can right here, right now ... yes, folks, I'm concerned about much bigger game than just SLU basketball. Toxic U., nation-wide, is facing some serious crises, of which all this is just one small symptom, in my opinion. . . . again, all due respect.

Guys. Why stress over this topic? Seems a no-brainer to me.

RM has a history of bringing in guys, being extremely demanding of them, turning some in NBA stars, winning many games and having several kids leave out the back door along the way. This is huge change from previous SLU coaches, although we all know that this happened with all of our coaches.

I'd suggest the real answer lies with the approach taken by SLU's various coaches to build and/or rebuild the program. Spoon, for instance, brought in alot of JUCOs. Because most were JRs when they came in, most did not quit or be forced out. Instead, they played their 2 years and left.

Hindsight is 20-20 but I'd have to say that while RM's biggest accomplishment is his major upgrade of the talent level/recruiting, his biggest mistake so far might be that he has relied exclusively on incoming freshmen. While I prefer building a program with 4 year players, I don't believe that RM has landed a single JUCO other than BE who was largely recruited by Brad. If only Harrelson had transferred in. If only Kowal had made it onto our roster. If only WR and KM (now JRs) could have been on our team to start this year. If only we had gotten a some more immediate help until the youngsters matured.... Instead, RM showed the "older" kids the door while he brought in 7 Frosh that first year and then 6 more Frosh the next year. Remember when we were all worried about unbalanced rosters. At least we don't have those problems anymore.

In short, RM purposefully brought in many incoming Frosh expecting only some to remain. After 2 years of taking the slower, 4 year player approach and waiting on the Billi Kids to mature, the loss of WR and KM now that we finally might have something is just simply a painful kick in the gut.

[NH]

WR and KM and FJ are not transfers.

And since we should all have our facts straight, last year's class was 6, and 3 are still left. The other Reid being the player that doc has presumably forgotten.

KShoe, like I said, the reasons for players leaving make sense. But the numbers are numbers. RM has coached 21 players who had the option of leaving (so not counting the seniors when he arrived or the current freshman). Of those, 3 finished their careers at SLU and 5 are still playing. So 8/21 or 38% of RM's players are either still playing or played until the end of their eligibility. No matter how you change it, thats a crazy percentage.

2 of the players have been suspended for a semester and could return, if we include them we have 48%.

Femi decided to retire, 52%

Daniel Lisch was always going to transfer, 57%

So, in my opinion, best case scenario is that 43% transferred. That is still not good.

[kshoe]

KShoe, like I said, the reasons for players leaving make sense. But the numbers are numbers. RM has coached 21 players who had the option of leaving (so not counting the seniors when he arrived or the current freshman). Of those, 3 finished their careers at SLU and 5 are still playing. So 8/21 or 38% of RM's players are either still playing or played until the end of their eligibility. No matter how you change it, thats a crazy percentage.

2 of the players have been suspended for a semester and could return, if we include them we have 48%.

Femi decided to retire, 52%

Daniel Lisch was always going to transfer, 57%

So, in my opinion, best case scenario is that 43% transferred. That is still not good.

FYI

http://www.uscollegesearch.org/blog/finding-a-college/college-transfer-rates-on-the-rise/

That article suggests that about half of all "average" college students end up taking classes at more than just their current university.

http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/27/transfer/

That article suggests 1 in 3 will trnsfer from their primary University.

Maybe your 43% transfer number isn't so crazy.

Either way, I'd like to thank Doc and NH for turning a thread about the possibility of us getting WR and KM back in the fold in early January into yet another debate about the high transfer % under RM. Congrats guys!

[Westy03]

Either way, I'd like to thank Doc and NH for turning a thread about the possibility of us getting WR and KM back in the fold in early January into yet another debate about the high transfer % under RM. Congrats guys!

Ha. No kidding.

[slu72]

Guys. Why stress over this topic? Seems a no-brainer to me.

RM has a history of bringing in guys, being extremely demanding of them, turning some in NBA stars, winning many games and having several kids leave out the back door along the way. This is huge change from previous SLU coaches, although we all know that this happened with all of our coaches.

I'd suggest the real answer lies with the approach taken by SLU's various coaches to build and/or rebuild the program. Spoon, for instance, brought in alot of JUCOs. Because most were JRs when they came in, most did not quit or be forced out. Instead, they played their 2 years and left.

Hindsight is 20-20 but I'd have to say that while RM's biggest accomplishment is his major upgrade of the talent level/recruiting, his biggest mistake so far might be that he has relied exclusively on incoming freshmen. While I prefer building a program with 4 year players, I don't believe that RM has landed a single JUCO other than BE who was largely recruited by Brad. If only Harrelson had transferred in. If only Kowal had made it onto our roster. If only WR and KM (now JRs) could have been on our team to start this year. If only we had gotten a some more immediate help until the youngsters matured.... Instead, RM showed the "older" kids the door while he brought in 7 Frosh that first year and then 6 more Frosh the next year. Remember when we were all worried about unbalanced rosters. At least we don't have those problems anymore.

In short, RM purposefully brought in many incoming Frosh expecting only some to remain. After 2 years of taking the slower, 4 year player approach and waiting on the Billi Kids to mature, the loss of WR and KM now that we finally might have something is just simply a painful kick in the gut.

Good post, Clock. The only argument I have is with the kids who transferred out after his first year. They by no means were D1 levels, except for Relphord, and to keep them around would have kept us and RM behind the 8 ball to this day. I'm even wondering if to some extent the BT scholie couldn't be laid at UB's door as well. Unless I'm mistaken he was gonna sign regardless of who was coach. Now RM may have been looking at 6'11 and saying I can mold this guy. However, he didn't realize the kid didn't want to be molded.

[NH]

Either way, I'd like to thank Doc and NH for turning a thread about the possibility of us getting WR and KM back in the fold in early January into yet another debate about the high transfer % under RM. Congrats guys!

You're right.

Everyone should skip over those posts or worry about one of the other threads. This Willie news brings us one step closer to the team we have been hoping for for ten years.

[slu72]

Good post, Clock. The only argument I have is with the kids who transferred out after his first year. They by no means were D1 levels, except for Relphord, and to keep them around would have kept us and RM behind the 8 ball to this day. I'm even wondering if to some extent the BT scholie couldn't be laid at UB's door as well. Unless I'm mistaken he was gonna sign regardless of who was coach. Now RM may have been looking at 6'11 and saying I can mold this guy. However, he didn't realize the kid didn't want to be molded.

I'd also like to add that while we all know our talent level has increased, I still think there's some disappointment we've not landed at least a couple of real impact players under RM. I am to some extent. He's got a great facility, a pretty urban campus, a great educaton, a decent conference (granted TV sucks), connections to the NBA, and he's a potential HOF coach. We've missed on some locals that qualify as impact types and until we can land a few, we're never going to be a Zaga or an X. Of course, this year we were denied seeing the results of a group of kids staying together because a couple got railroaded.

[ACE]

FYI

http://www.uscollegesearch.org/blog/finding-a-college/college-transfer-rates-on-the-rise/

That article suggests that about half of all "average" college students end up taking classes at more than just their current university.

http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/04/27/transfer/

That article suggests 1 in 3 will trnsfer from their primary University.

Maybe your 43% transfer number isn't so crazy.

Either way, I'd like to thank Doc and NH for turning a thread about the possibility of us getting WR and KM back in the fold in early January into yet another debate about the high transfer % under RM. Congrats guys!

+1 Another example why kshoe is one of the best on this board.

IF that thing doesn't happen, we are sitting here today likely undefeated (at worst one loss at Portland) and still feeling good that we have a team capable of making the NCAA Tournament. Even his critics woould concede RM had built a NCAA contender.

Who cares about all the other stuff. Are we supposed to be stressing about losing Cotto, Thompson, Jordan and Smith? Come on. RM has had no problem replacing those players with others who are comparable or better.

[DoctorB]

FYI to Kshoe and all:

elite schools -- meaning, a top, competitive school that SLU aspires to be and declares itself to be -- have nowhere near those kinds of transfer rates. in fact SLU's retention rate needs to be well over 90%. This has been a major point of emphasis in recent years

i.e. a 43% transfer rate IS quite crazy -- why not phone Fr. Biondi and let him know he really needs to chill out because we are not in the 92-93% range, which is what we here at SLU have been told to shoot for. Believe me when I tell you, the administration frowns whenever it slips below 90%, folks.

final thought --as soon as you start comparing SLU to "national averages" you have confused our goals and missions. Currently we are ranked somewhere in the 60s out of well over 2000 colleges and universities, which puts is into about the top 3%.

you guys are probably right, none of this is relevant to wins wins wins.... the end-all and be-all of college sports inc.

[Bizziken]

+1 Another example why kshoe is one of the best on this board.

IF that thing doesn't happen, we are sitting here today likely undefeated (at worst one loss at Portland) and still feeling good that we have a team capable of making the NCAA Tournament. Even his critics woould concede RM had built a NCAA contender.

Who cares about all the other stuff. Are we supposed to be stressing about losing Cotto, Thompson, Jordan and Smith? Come on. RM has had no problem replacing those players with others who are comparable or better.

We would have beaten Portland by 20...Had Willie played, Sickma would have asked for his autograph after the game...

Majerus's philosophy is simple: Work your a$$ off, and apply yourself in the classroom...those who can't follow those two things will simply not cut it...

[GOSLU68]

We would have beaten Portland by 20...Had Willie played, Sickma would have asked for his autograph after the game...

Majerus's philosophy is simple: Work your a$$ off, and apply yourself in the classroom...those who can't follow those two things will simply not cut it...

and never play 4 on 1

[The Pelican]

You're right.

Everyone should skip over those posts or worry about one of the other threads. This Willie news brings us one step closer to the team we have been hoping for for ten years.

Assume that you are being serious here I would have to say that you have shown some humility in a few of you posts in the last few days that deserves some honest recognition. This post is not at all meant to be condescending but a recognition. You are getting wise in your younger age. Good for you and please take this as a compliment. FREE WILLIE!

P.S. - Did you start the Free Willie and Kwamain Facebook page?

[NH]

P.S. - Did you start the Free Willie and Kwamain Facebook page?

With the consultation of SLUisville and BFan05

[Tonka]

FYI to Kshoe and all:

elite schools -- meaning, a top, competitive school that SLU aspires to be and declares itself to be -- have nowhere near those kinds of transfer rates. in fact SLU's retention rate needs to be well over 90%. This has been a major point of emphasis in recent years

i.e. a 43% transfer rate IS quite crazy -- why not phone Fr. Biondi and let him know he really needs to chill out because we are not in the 92-93% range, which is what we here at SLU have been told to shoot for. Believe me when I tell you, the administration frowns whenever it slips below 90%, folks.

final thought --as soon as you start comparing SLU to "national averages" you have confused our goals and missions. Currently we are ranked somewhere in the 60s out of well over 2000 colleges and universities, which puts is into about the top 3%.

you guys are probably right, none of this is relevant to wins wins wins.... the end-all and be-all of college sports inc.

DocB, SLU's overall student retention rate is currently in the 90's? What is that measured from - all of last year or so far this semester? Is there any place that lists our retention rate from year to year? I'd be curious to see that.

[slufan13]

FYI to Kshoe and all:

elite schools -- meaning, a top, competitive school that SLU aspires to be and declares itself to be -- have nowhere near those kinds of transfer rates. in fact SLU's retention rate needs to be well over 90%. This has been a major point of emphasis in recent years

i.e. a 43% transfer rate IS quite crazy -- why not phone Fr. Biondi and let him know he really needs to chill out because we are not in the 92-93% range, which is what we here at SLU have been told to shoot for. Believe me when I tell you, the administration frowns whenever it slips below 90%, folks.

final thought --as soon as you start comparing SLU to "national averages" you have confused our goals and missions. Currently we are ranked somewhere in the 60s out of well over 2000 colleges and universities, which puts is into about the top 3%.

you guys are probably right, none of this is relevant to wins wins wins.... the end-all and be-all of college sports inc.

Justin Jordan couldn't handle the academics. He would have been gone either way. If you're going to come to SLU and play for Rick, you better be dedicated in the classroom and on the court. High School coaches that Rick talks to may tell him that those kids are ready for a tough place like SLU, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's true. I'd rather have kids who want to play, want to learn from Rick, and who are dedicated in the classroom, than just have a good transfer rate. It's not Rick's fault that some kids can't handle SLU. It's not his fault if they aren't dedicated to the court and the classroom. Just because a kid is dedicated in high school doesn't mean it'll be the same in college. Rick can't control that Femi got hurt. He can't control that Kwamain and Willie got in trouble. Not every guy can be Kevin Lisch or Paul Eckerle or Jake Barnett. Not everyone is a straight A, perfect character kid. These are 20 year old kids and some come from rough backgrounds. Some are selfish. Some don't like that all of a sudden, they aren't the superstar on their team anymore. Rick pushed these kids out because they couldn't handle it here. I'd rather him push them out than let them fail their way out. At least by pushing them out, Rick gives them a chance somewhere else. If they fail out or quit the team, it's bad for all parties.

[The Pelican]

With the consultation of SLUisville and BFan05

I thought that was pretty cool.

[courtside]

http://www.ncaa.org/wps/portal/ncaahome?WCM_GLOBAL_CONTEXT=/wps/wcm/connect/ncaa/NCAA/Academics%20and%20Athletes/Education%20and%20Research/Academic%20Reform/

NCAA APR Rates for:

2005

2006

2007

2008

2009

2010

[cheeseman]

All of us wish that when RM came that the cupboard was not so bare. Besides, TL and KL there was not much of quality here - LM was a decent player but he was blue collar. RM had to basically start from scratch and because of the unused schollies that had piled up he had to have big numbers of new players come in. Anytime you recruit 6-7 players two years in a row the odds are you are going to have issues with some of them. Issues like grades, injuries, and personalities. For those who say "the numbers are the numbers" and any reason given is just excuses you are wanting it both ways. When you point to a simplistic item you invite others to want to give reasons for why. If you do not want to accept any reasons then don't bring up the simple item. This is like looking at a complex issue such as the deficient and say it is the fault of the person holding the bag today and I don't want to hear about the reasons such as unpaid wars by another administration or an economy in the crapper - I don't mean for this to be a political discussion only that I offer it as an example of my point above. Finally, I sense that Dr. B may have been on the Conduct Board or else his wife or kid was by the way he has taken this whole issue personally. Just an observation which may be wrong - but I am just saying.

[jbizzle09]

All of us wish that when RM came that the cupboard was not so bare. Besides, TL and KL there was not much of quality here - LM was a decent player but he was blue collar. RM had to basically start from scratch and because of the unused schollies that had piled up he had to have big numbers of new players come in. Anytime you recruit 6-7 players two years in a row the odds are you are going to have issues with some of them. Issues like grades, injuries, and personalities. For those who say "the numbers are the numbers" and any reason given is just excuses you are wanting it both ways. When you point to a simplistic item you invite others to want to give reasons for why. If you do not want to accept any reasons then don't bring up the simple item. This is like looking at a complex issue such as the deficient and say it is the fault of the person holding the bag today and I don't want to hear about the reasons such as unpaid wars by another administration or an economy in the crapper - I don't mean for this to be a political discussion only that I offer it as an example of my point above. Finally, I sense that Dr. B may have been on the Conduct Board or else his wife or kid was by the way he has taken this whole issue personally. Just an observation which may be wrong - but I am just saying.

Very good post.

[Quality Is Job 1]

RM has a history of bringing in guys, being extremely demanding of them, turning some in NBA stars, winning many games and having several kids leave out the back door along the way.

The problem I see is that Coach Majerus has yet to demonstrate that he can replicate his earlier levels of success in this generation at SLU. And the clock is ticking.

[NH]

And the clock is ticking.

Nice thicks.

[Westy03]

TT mentioned that Willie will still have to be cleared by the NCAA. Does anyone think this could pose a problem?