Willie Reed Sr. changes his tune

[Bizziken]

TT mentioned that Willie will still have to be cleared by the NCAA. Does anyone think this could pose a problem?

Shouldn't be a problem at all. As we all know, the NCAA is an extremely competent, well oiled institution and is known for its efficiency and logical approach to admittance situations. In addition, the NCAA is well equipped to deal with the myriad of problems that it receives every year and won't let bureaucratic nonsense get in the way of a prompt and reasoned decision. The NCAA also has an abundance of resources and staff available to handle the copious amounts of claims they receive.

I am fully expecting a smooth ride...

[eastsidejoe]

The problem I see is that Coach Majerus has yet to demonstrate that he can replicate his earlier levels of success in this generation at SLU. And the clock is ticking.

I have my doubts that any coach could come in and work with the Administration and handle the bad luck that seems to raise its ugly head all of the time. Given that, I think RM is doing as well as anyone could.

[DoctorB]

cheesy man -- just so you and everyone else can sleep soundly: you are way off base, and that insipid and snivelling last line is frankly a joke in very poor taste. I have had nothing to do with that conduct board, zero, and I have no idea who was on it. I doubt if almost anyone at SLU does know except the people in the room.

why do I take all this personally? gee, what could it be? maybe having devoted 14 years of my life to this institution, could that be it? and sensing that there are a number of things that are seriously rotten in Denmark, could that be a factor?

Among those many things going off the rails at today's postmodern Toxic Universities -- nationwide, I might add -- are 3 that relate to this current discussion: 1. an almost mindless college sports idolatry in which the ends definitely always justify the means; 2. a level of mindless moral depravity that very few parents seem to understand on even the vaguest level ("college students have always misbehaved"); and 3. perhaps most sinister of all: an absolutely mindless acceptance of the moral status quo, meaning that even to questions morality at this stage is itself immoral and deeply judgmental. All of my frustration and near-despair in this PARTICULAR case probably is just symptomatic of these much larger and far graver matters. For me, it is becoming increasingly difficult to separate my love for certain things, such as SLU basketball, from the larger depraved contexts in which they are imbedded and implicated (to talk like an actual cultural historian, which I happen to be: and I'd be happy to provide extensive reading lists of current social and cultural criticism that documents all this, just so you all know I'm not making this up; feel free to pm me. Again, you might start with I AM CHARLOTTE SIMMONS, and then let me know if it makes you laugh or cry. Wolfe's novel captures perfectly the precise content that current students are learning at university -- or better yet, how they are being wired, or programmed, like Pavlovian dogs.... into a particular moral ecology)

I'm sure all the young bucks on here can now freely pile on the old white guy for being such a church-lady freak, but there it is. But 25 years of studying American culture, and there in a nutshell are some of my major conclusions....so my apologies for trying to elevate even slightly the generally feckless level of discourse on here.

That's why I take all this so seriously and personally -- it's my life's work, and there are even bigger icebergs ahead.

and for now, I wish everyone a happy holidays and bid you all adieu. I'm done on this topic. What's the point?

[billiken_roy]

applause applause for the good doc.

doc, you are not alone. there are more of us out there than what this message board indicates. my daily conversations tell me the mindset of this board is not the majority.

[bonwich]

I'm not sure what point of reference DocB is using for his "moral depravity" comparison, but based on things like the degree of herpes infection in the adult population (dating to at least the '90s), the number of Baby Jesuits who got lucky more often than I did when I was at SLU, the unpublished history of the College Church Choir -- and, from another perspective, the student body of the University of Wisconsin circa 1980 -- I'm not really sure that it was all Ozzie and Harriet even in Ozzie's and Harriet's day, let alone in the latter part of the 20th century.

My anecdotal observation is that there was all kinds of "moral depravity" going on while I was in school in the late '70s-early '80s. (I've been told the '60s were pretty groovy as well.) There was also a much higher degree of discretion and/or privacy -- or, for example, an infinitesmal degree of gay college kids having their first encounters placed on the Internet in real time.

The "Going to Hell in a handbasket" argument is so 1960s. Or 1980s. Or 1950s. Or...well, you get the idea. I've been around "elite" universities since the day I was born, and I'm not sure it's ever been any better -- it's just been different.

[billikendave]

Doc:

i understand your position. However, I would argue that SLU is as complicit in your three points as anyone on this board. The actions of hte Administration underscore this. They did not take a moral position. They did not say this type of behavior (legal or not) is not allowed by students, student athletes, etc. They had an opportunity to take that stand and say: these guys are gone because we, as a Catholic/Jesuit university, do not tolerate it. Basketball be damned.

Indeed, the crux of the Administration and apparently the board was not a moral or ethical decision but became awash by heavily influential donors (read: cash) and by their status as basketball players (read: cash). A year suspension was whittled down to two months. Is there any doubt(if they come back) SLU will be proud to have KM and WR wearing Saint Louis across their chest and representing the university? Won't the crowd roar when they come back? Isn't SLU going to tell donors that they "stood up" to deviant behavior and that we aren't like other programs? Really?

BTW, it is my belief the negotiation between SLU and WR and WR Sr (release him, threaten lawsuit, maybe come back) is all to reduce whatever requirements are necessary to return to the university.

[Billsrmajic]

I'm not sure what point of reference DocB is using for his "moral depravity" comparison, but based on things like the degree of herpes infection in the adult population (dating to at least the '90s), the number of Baby Jesuits who got lucky more often than I did when I was at SLU, the unpublished history of the College Church Choir -- and, from another perspective, the student body of the University of Wisconsin circa 1980 -- I'm not really sure that it was all Ozzie and Harriet even in Ozzie's and Harriet's day, let alone in the latter part of the 20th century.

My anecdotal observation is that there was all kinds of "moral depravity" going on while I was in school in the late '70s-early '80s. (I've been told the '60s were pretty groovy as well.) There was also a much higher degree of discretion and/or privacy -- or, for example, an infinitesmal degree of gay college kids having their first encounters placed on the Internet in real time.

The "Going to Hell in a handbasket" article is so 1960s. Or 1980s. Or 1950s. Or...well, you get the idea. I've been around "elite" universities since the day I was born, and I'm not sure it's ever been any better -- it's just been different.

+1

And I find it ironic that Doc B decries "an almost mindless college sports idolatry in which the ends definitely always justify the means" and yet also starts a thread in which he offers to bet that his university basketball team will lose an upcoming game. Hypocrisy

[courtside]

hmmmmmm......

I have doubts about either player coming back but may well be wrong. this is not from the "inner beltway" or anything. But if they did, it would seem to me really silly for them to play this year, but adolescents do a lot of silly ######. Will RM and staff allow them to suit up this year?? has anyone got actual, real confirmation from any on staff that these 2 will actually play in January, if allowed back in to SLU?

as for wins, I am combining a few posts in other threads, and responding to Kshoe and others: I have us at about 12-14 wins at best. 8-6 non-conference --are you kidding me? I have trouble seeing 8 wins in all this, even counting Rockhurst. The only lock I see left is BGSU--if you all agree that's a "lock"... as for Jax, I guess we'll see Wed. I really hope we play like we did in the 2nd half against Tenn. State, which was about as good as we have looked so far. Jax has 2 really lean and hungry dudes, so Dwayne E. better eat his wheaties that morning. ps -- everyone is walking around campus today like zombies -- VERY TIRED for finals -- and our guys will just be getting back from whatever greets them in Durham. ouch.

if the 2 come back I just wonder how much it helps, how effective that will be at this point. Ellis did help a lot at the end of last year but it did take a while. again-- I have real reservations about them playing in Jan. and sort of surprised no one else seems to share that. win win win!!!

to answer NH: we don't seem to have the horses, and the inexperience of the freshmen is what it is--up and down at best. Is it just me or is it just possible that the recruiting by RM, while a vast improvement over Brad, has actually been pretty suspect in certain obvious ways? recall please that at present, of the first class of 7, only 2 are suiting up; and last year's class of 5, only 3 are left. that's 5 of 12, which if it were free throws would be bad enough to resemble our present % at the charity stripe.

I think sometimes folks on here have been too sanguine about RM's "spectacular" recruiting -- and I realize there are other factors involved, but the numbers speak for themselves, guys. I think my growing awareness of these realities has dampened my own enthusiasms of the current state of affairs, though personally I really like a lot of the folks in the program... trying not to slam too hard here, just giving an opinion down at "friendly's" bar and grill....

sorry I know some of you don't want to hear it, but again--we just don't have the horses, at least as much as many of us would have suspected by now. I was one who believed that, by this year, we would really have those horses; but a variety of reasons, some rather nefarious, has mitigated that reality to say the least...

you wanna see horses/ watch saturday; the Dukies bench would beat most teams in the A10, I suspect. I saw some of Purdue the other night; they got some horses.

I believe you grossly underestimate the amount of transfers in NCAA hoops especially during the first few years of a coaching change.

I've repeatedly posted the numbers here.

Reasons why kids transfer are vast and varied.

1). Coaching change. Kids choose schools for the coach much of the time. Coach leaves, so do some recruits with that coach as well as to a third school.

2). Health reasons. Kids get injured, kids turn up previously unknown and unexpected health conditions.

3). Coaches "miss" on recruits, at every school. The kids simply are not good enough to play at that school. Some stay and become bench players or role players, and others leave for more playing time at a lesser level. In today's game, depth is very important and few teams have scrub players who are not walk ons.

4). Homesick or family reasons. Kids want or need to play closer to home.

5). Academics. Despite efforts of support and help, some kids are unable to handle the academics at some schools.

6). Weather. Some kids don't like certain types of weather.

7). Team not winning. Some kids cannot stand losing and or playing for a team that isn't competitive enough at a certain level.

8). Some kids don't like the program or professor(s) in their fields of study.

9). Some kids get influenced by their family, friends, strangers etc...to go elsewhere.

10). Some kids get into relationships that don't work out.

11). Some kids don't mesh with the personality of their coaching staff or teammates, office staff, tutors, chefs.

...And on and on and on...

SLU's Hank Raymonds will be honored with his name on Marquette's jerseys.

I'm sure when Bucky Badger travels to Marquette tomorrow, that Buzz Williams wishes he had Trevor Mbakwe(Minnesota) or Scott Christopherson(Iowa State) or Tyshawn Taylor(Kansas) etc...to help his team. They left when the coaching change was made. I'm also sure he doesn't regret the transfer of Jeronne Maymon(overbearing parent) to Tennessee. I bet he sympathizes with the health issues of Liam Lawrence(unexpected health issues), and he wishes nothing but the best for DJ Newbill(logjam at guard). I'm sure he also roots for the couple of other not good enough for Big East recruits since transferred as well. I bet he's proud to continue to produce quality young men who go to class, assimilate in the community, and get degrees. I'm sure Bucky Badger won't like Marquette's Vander Blue who of course committed to Wisconsin then changed his mind and picked Marquette. Reason: Committed too early and felt more comfortable at the other place, with the other people in their environment. Just as I'm sure he's thrilled to have incoming transfers of the play and character of Jimmy Butler, Jae Crowder and others.

There's a current internet video series entitled Marquette basketball revealed. I've seen the first 13 episodes,(they're short, no worries for short attention span crowd) quite well done, including two on charter flights that folks here would enjoy.

[jbizzle09]

cheesy man -- just so you and everyone else can sleep soundly: you are way off base, and that insipid and snivelling last line is frankly a joke in very poor taste. I have had nothing to do with that conduct board, zero, and I have no idea who was on it. I doubt if almost anyone at SLU does know except the people in the room.

why do I take all this personally? gee, what could it be? maybe having devoted 14 years of my life to this institution, could that be it? and sensing that there are a number of things that are seriously rotten in Denmark, could that be a factor?

Among those many things going off the rails at today's postmodern Toxic Universities -- nationwide, I might add -- are 3 that relate to this current discussion: 1. an almost mindless college sports idolatry in which the ends definitely always justify the means; 2. a level of mindless moral depravity that very few parents seem to understand on even the vaguest level ("college students have always misbehaved"); and 3. perhaps most sinister of all: an absolutely mindless acceptance of the moral status quo, meaning that even to questions morality at this stage is itself immoral and deeply judgmental. All of my frustration and near-despair in this PARTICULAR case probably is just symptomatic of these much larger and far graver matters. For me, it is becoming increasingly difficult to separate my love for certain things, such as SLU basketball, from the larger depraved contexts in which they are imbedded and implicated (to talk like an actual cultural historian, which I happen to be: and I'd be happy to provide extensive reading lists of current social and cultural criticism that documents all this, just so you all know I'm not making this up; feel free to pm me. Again, you might start with I AM CHARLOTTE SIMMONS, and then let me know if it makes you laugh or cry. Wolfe's novel captures perfectly the precise content that current students are learning at university -- or better yet, how they are being wired, or programmed, like Pavlovian dogs.... into a particular moral ecology)

I'm sure all the young bucks on here can now freely pile on the old white guy for being such a church-lady freak, but there it is. But 25 years of studying American culture, and there in a nutshell are some of my major conclusions....so my apologies for trying to elevate even slightly the generally feckless level of discourse on here.

That's why I take all this so seriously and personally -- it's my life's work, and there are even bigger icebergs ahead.

and for now, I wish everyone a happy holidays and bid you all adieu. I'm done on this topic. What's the point?

So you want us to read a book that the Literary Review gave the Bad Sex in Fiction Award to in 2004? A fiction book written by an grumpy white man in his 70s about hooking up in college that many critics thought was laughably bad and out of touch? Is this the book that is going to be the eye opening experience that many of us need to see the moral depravity of our times?

[Box and Won]

So you want us to read a book that the Literary Review gave the Bad Sex in Fiction Award to in 2004? A fiction book written by an grumpy white man in his 70s about hooking up in college that many critics thought was laughably bad and out of touch? Is this the book that is going to be the eye opening experience that many of us need to see the moral depravity of our times?

I did read it, and wouldn't recommend it to anyone. Drivel. And I like Tom Wolfe.

Now, I do wish someone would get around to publishing the Unpublished History of the College Church Choir. THAT I would read.

[MusicCityBilliken]

And I like Tom Wolfe.

He's buried not far from where I live.

[cheeseman]

cheesy man -- just so you and everyone else can sleep soundly: you are way off base, and that insipid and snivelling last line is frankly a joke in very poor taste. I have had nothing to do with that conduct board, zero, and I have no idea who was on it. I doubt if almost anyone at SLU does know except the people in the room.

why do I take all this personally? gee, what could it be? maybe having devoted 14 years of my life to this institution, could that be it? and sensing that there are a number of things that are seriously rotten in Denmark, could that be a factor?

Among those many things going off the rails at today's postmodern Toxic Universities -- nationwide, I might add -- are 3 that relate to this current discussion: 1. an almost mindless college sports idolatry in which the ends definitely always justify the means; 2. a level of mindless moral depravity that very few parents seem to understand on even the vaguest level ("college students have always misbehaved"); and 3. perhaps most sinister of all: an absolutely mindless acceptance of the moral status quo, meaning that even to questions morality at this stage is itself immoral and deeply judgmental. All of my frustration and near-despair in this PARTICULAR case probably is just symptomatic of these much larger and far graver matters. For me, it is becoming increasingly difficult to separate my love for certain things, such as SLU basketball, from the larger depraved contexts in which they are imbedded and implicated (to talk like an actual cultural historian, which I happen to be: and I'd be happy to provide extensive reading lists of current social and cultural criticism that documents all this, just so you all know I'm not making this up; feel free to pm me. Again, you might start with I AM CHARLOTTE SIMMONS, and then let me know if it makes you laugh or cry. Wolfe's novel captures perfectly the precise content that current students are learning at university -- or better yet, how they are being wired, or programmed, like Pavlovian dogs.... into a particular moral ecology)

I'm sure all the young bucks on here can now freely pile on the old white guy for being such a church-lady freak, but there it is. But 25 years of studying American culture, and there in a nutshell are some of my major conclusions....so my apologies for trying to elevate even slightly the generally feckless level of discourse on here.

That's why I take all this so seriously and personally -- it's my life's work, and there are even bigger icebergs ahead.

and for now, I wish everyone a happy holidays and bid you all adieu. I'm done on this topic. What's the point?

Very nice comeback - how long did it take you to come up with "cheesy" - very original. I am sorry you think things are changing around you and you don't like it but the only thing that is constant in life is change. I spent 12 years going to school at SLU in total and my son spent 5 so I would think I have as much invested in the school as you. No, I did not make a living at the school but I did pay out of my pocket to be a part of the community. You have been negative about the entire basketball program since all this came down. You come on the board and make bets against the team and then gloat over your winning. What kind of fan is that? - a fan who only supports the team when things are going well. We are all disappointed with this year but all we can do is get over it - so, get over it!

[dlarry]

Shouldn't be a problem at all. As we all know, the NCAA is an extremely competent, well oiled institution and is known for its efficiency and logical approach to admittance situations. In addition, the NCAA is well equipped to deal with the myriad of problems that it receives every year and won't let bureaucratic nonsense get in the way of a prompt and reasoned decision. The NCAA also has an abundance of resources and staff available to handle the copious amounts of claims they receive.

I am fully expecting a smooth ride...

Ha! very nice

cheesy man -- just so you and everyone else can sleep soundly: you are way off base, and that insipid and snivelling last line is frankly a joke in very poor taste. I have had nothing to do with that conduct board, zero, and I have no idea who was on it. I doubt if almost anyone at SLU does know except the people in the room.

why do I take all this personally? gee, what could it be? maybe having devoted 14 years of my life to this institution, could that be it? and sensing that there are a number of things that are seriously rotten in Denmark, could that be a factor?

Among those many things going off the rails at today's postmodern Toxic Universities -- nationwide, I might add -- are 3 that relate to this current discussion: 1. an almost mindless college sports idolatry in which the ends definitely always justify the means; 2. a level of mindless moral depravity that very few parents seem to understand on even the vaguest level ("college students have always misbehaved"); and 3. perhaps most sinister of all: an absolutely mindless acceptance of the moral status quo, meaning that even to questions morality at this stage is itself immoral and deeply judgmental. All of my frustration and near-despair in this PARTICULAR case probably is just symptomatic of these much larger and far graver matters. For me, it is becoming increasingly difficult to separate my love for certain things, such as SLU basketball, from the larger depraved contexts in which they are imbedded and implicated (to talk like an actual cultural historian, which I happen to be: and I'd be happy to provide extensive reading lists of current social and cultural criticism that documents all this, just so you all know I'm not making this up; feel free to pm me. Again, you might start with I AM CHARLOTTE SIMMONS, and then let me know if it makes you laugh or cry. Wolfe's novel captures perfectly the precise content that current students are learning at university -- or better yet, how they are being wired, or programmed, like Pavlovian dogs.... into a particular moral ecology)

I'm sure all the young bucks on here can now freely pile on the old white guy for being such a church-lady freak, but there it is. But 25 years of studying American culture, and there in a nutshell are some of my major conclusions....so my apologies for trying to elevate even slightly the generally feckless level of discourse on here.

That's why I take all this so seriously and personally -- it's my life's work, and there are even bigger icebergs ahead.

and for now, I wish everyone a happy holidays and bid you all adieu. I'm done on this topic. What's the point?

applause applause for the good doc.

doc, you are not alone. there are more of us out there than what this message board indicates. my daily conversations tell me the mindset of this board is not the majority.

Hmm? Im starting to see something here!

DocB is Billiken roy.....Billiken Roy is DocB

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSPtSEIlp8A&feature=related