Join A Grassroots Movement for Change of AD and MBB Coach

[Soderball]

1 minute ago, billikenfan05 said:

I mean, does Travis want to win? I would do it anywhere, anytime if I was in Ford's spot. 

05; Ford is looking out for #1. He's keeping the money in his eventual retirement fund. I'm pretty sure winning or losing at basketball is totally irrelevant compared to that. He got the school's and the booster's money. He talked a good game, got the money, and is on his way out the door check in hand.

[TheA_Bomb]

2 minutes ago, billikenfan05 said:

I mean, does Travis want to win? I would do it anywhere, anytime if I was in Ford's spot. 

He could do it and would still lose. Dude has won a NCAA tournament game in 27 years of coaching. He could have Lebron and still F it up some how.

He's a loser, and will always be a loser.

[billiken_roy]

pistol the BoT is made up of not only the wealthy but also most creative and hard working men and women in the area.   if anyone can figure it out to use the unrestricted money they can do it.   Other schools have thought outside the box to enhance their athletic department and successfully did it why cant we.   we never hear of any of the money from the endowment fund being used for anything.   i am tired of this trophy aspect.   it does us no good just sitting there growing.   when a new project comes to light, we fund raise from ground zero instead of utilizing the unrestricted money.   

the old adage, "that's not the way we have ever did it" or just simply "we cant" is a loser attitude.   and right now we are a loser.  if the bigshots refuse to address it, why should the fans even continue as fans.  it's a whole new world in division one college athletics and the billikens are about to be left in the dust.  

from my viewpoint if the BoT isnt willing to try to access the money that no one is bucking up individually, then lets get the process started to move down to D3.   we are apparently nothing but losers that do not deserve a credible athletic program.

[TheA_Bomb]

1 minute ago, Soderball said:

05; Ford is looking out for #1. He's keeping the money in his eventual retirement fund. I'm pretty sure winning or losing at basketball is totally irrelevant compared to that. He got the school's and the booster's money. He talked a good game, got the money, and is on his way out the door check in hand.

Also he's going to have to put his house on the market at a time when interest rates are high and B-Roy is retired.  But the cost of living near Berea College will be much less. I hope Realtor Troy Robertson gets him a motivated buyer.

[billiken_roy]

1 hour ago, brianstl said:

Ford's recruiting recruiting results have not been acceptable since the the Yuri/Jimerson/Hargrove class in 2019.  The bad recruiting results actually started before NIL.

That said, Ford's recruiting in retrospect has been overrated all along.  We all just bought into the hype because as fans we wanted to believe.  He only had one great recruiting class.  The class with French and Goodwin.  Even that class was marred by taking risk with questionable character transfers that almost destroyed the Ford era before it even really got started.  The "best recruiter ever at SLU" has actually recruited less talent to SLU over his time period than Grawer, Spoon and Majerus.  Just stack up the names they brought into the program and compare them to those Ford did.  It really isn't close.

respectfully disagree.   Ford's overall raw recruiting was always excellent until the last two years.   he just is such a terrible development coach and practice coach and game coach, the players never developed.   look at traore?  he was obviously considered a waste by ford.   now he is a double double machine.   

the coaches you want to compare him to above, grawer, spoon and rickma, never brought in the talent that ford did, HOWEVER all were far better developers, practice coaches and of course game coaches and got far more out of their players.   

[johnbj14]

5 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

pistol the BoT is made up of not only the wealthy but also most creative and hard working men and women in the area.   if anyone can figure it out to use the unrestricted money they can do it.   Other schools have thought outside the box to enhance their athletic department and successfully did it why cant we.   we never hear of any of the money from the endowment fund being used for anything.   i am tired of this trophy aspect.   it does us no good just sitting there growing.   when a new project comes to light, we fund raise from ground zero instead of utilizing the unrestricted money.   

the old adage, "that's not the way we have ever did it" or just simply "we cant" is a loser attitude.   and right now we are a loser.  if the bigshots refuse to address it, why should the fans even continue as fans.  it's a whole new world in division one college athletics and the billikens are about to be left in the dust.  

from my viewpoint if the BoT isnt willing to try to access the money that no one is bucking up individually, then lets get the process started to move down to D3.   we are apparently nothing but losers that do not deserve a credible athletic program.

A portion of the endowment is not liquid. SLU’s endowment is used for disbursements for designated funds, but the endowment serves a large purpose as collateral for debt issuances that they use to finance capital projects like new dorms or academic buildings. 

[Pistol]

29 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

pistol the BoT is made up of not only the wealthy but also most creative and hard working men and women in the area.   if anyone can figure it out to use the unrestricted money they can do it.   Other schools have thought outside the box to enhance their athletic department and successfully did it why cant we.   we never hear of any of the money from the endowment fund being used for anything.   i am tired of this trophy aspect.   it does us no good just sitting there growing.   when a new project comes to light, we fund raise from ground zero instead of utilizing the unrestricted money.   

the old adage, "that's not the way we have ever did it" or just simply "we cant" is a loser attitude.   and right now we are a loser.  if the bigshots refuse to address it, why should the fans even continue as fans.  it's a whole new world in division one college athletics and the billikens are about to be left in the dust.  

from my viewpoint if the BoT isnt willing to try to access the money that no one is bucking up individually, then lets get the process started to move down to D3.   we are apparently nothing but losers that do not deserve a credible athletic program.

I just don't know what else to say. Blame the board all you want (and you sure want to, since you blame the same people for everything in every post), this is just the nature of endowments and it would be this way at any other school.

You're also contradicting your previous post, the one that seemed to be saying there's not much we can do about Ford's contract. I'm not the one saying we can't or shouldn't fire Ford and May. They both need to go right now. I'm just saying we can't dip into the endowment to make it happen, and if you think we can, you are not living in reality.

[slu92]

32 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

now you are just being unreasonable.   the champions center was planned and fund raised and construction started before NIL was ever dreamed would be allowed.   i am sure if we could turn back time things would be different.   but to blame that on Chris May is reasonable. 

Talk about NIL started in late 2019 when NCAA governing body asked each NCAA division to create new NIL rules by Jan 2021. We also went through a pandemic. A lot of construction projects were put on hold or canceled. Chris May then either dropped the ball again like he did with Big East, is stupid or delusional. Either way it’s not good. Again, SLU should be able to walk and chew gum at same time, not this AD. Plus, the champions center isn’t even paid off yet as of today! He had Cusamano crying about slu needing more NIL money after last year, did he just realize how important NIL money was a year ago? 100% he is main fundraiser correct? That’s an AD’s job correct? Ok. Then why doesn’t slu pay off champions center, build a real D1 baseball/softball complex and have NIL money? I’ll take 1 out of the 3! What does Chris May really do? All I want to know then. Not attacking you Roy, it’s just I don’t see it at all and slu can do much better imo.

[johnbj14]

Chris May and Travis Ford have not pushed the national profile of the Saint Louis Billikens forward under his tenure. That’s all that needs to be said. 

[brianstl]

6 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

respectfully disagree.   Ford's overall raw recruiting was always excellent until the last two years.   he just is such a terrible development coach and practice coach and game coach, the players never developed.   look at traore?  he was obviously considered a waste by ford.   now he is a double double machine.   

the coaches you want to compare him to above, grawer, spoon and rickma, never brought in the talent that ford did, HOWEVER all were far better developers, practice coaches and of course game coaches and got far more out of their players.   

When was the the last time a starter level player on an at large bid NCAA tournament team committed to SLU out of high school?  The last such player was Gibson Jimerson and it was almost 5 and half years ago when he verbally committed to SLU.

[slu92]

2 minutes ago, slu92 said:

Talk about NIL started in late 2019 when NCAA governing body asked each NCAA division to create new NIL rules by Jan 2021. We also went through a pandemic. A lot of construction projects were put on hold or canceled. Chris May then either dropped the ball again like he did with Big East, is stupid or delusional. Either way it’s not good. Again, SLU should be able to walk and chew gum at same time, not this AD. Plus, the champions center isn’t even paid off yet as of today! He had Cusamano crying about slu needing more NIL money after last year, did he just realize how important NIL money was a year ago? 100% he is main fundraiser correct? That’s an AD’s job correct? Ok. Then why doesn’t slu pay off champions center, build a real D1 baseball/softball complex and have NIL money? I’ll take 1 out of the 3! What does Chris May really do? All I want to know then. Not attacking you Roy, it’s just I don’t see it at all and slu can do much better imo.

AND can someone confirm that all the athletes can now eat at the champions center and not just mbb and wbb???? Because I heard last night at the game other athletes meal plans cannot be used at the champions center, IF that is true and I got info from a parent of a wsoc player, explain how that benefits all student athletes again Chris? What a joke. 

[brianstl]

And Lassina Traore is nice player. He would definitely help SLU right now.  Is he a starter on an NCAA at large team?  Debatable.  He has been putting up his great numbers while playing in the Big West.

Lassina Traore wasn't a huge recruiting win he came to SLU.  It was a favor to the Victory Rock program because we had a scholarship available.  If I remember correctly Ford beat out Arkansas St. for him the week before classes started.

[billiken_roy]

18 minutes ago, slu92 said:

 What does Chris May really do? All I want to know then. Not attacking you Roy, it’s just I don’t see it at all and slu can do much better imo.

our non revenue sports are in a better place overall they they have been in my fandom (since 1978).   while facilities can still be better, particularly with non revenue sports, the improvements in Chris May's time at SLU has been substantial.   

i know on this board we tend to think "men's basketball" and that makes sense, it pretty much funds all the sports, but imo the AD has to take more than those 13 young men and that staff when doing his job.   i question whether you are looking at the big picture Chris May has to look at.  

[BrettJollyComedyHour]

19 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

our non revenue sports are in a better place overall they they have been in my fandom (since 1978).   while facilities can still be better, particularly with non revenue sports, the improvements in Chris May's time at SLU has been substantial.   

i know on this board we tend to think "men's basketball" and that makes sense, it pretty much funds all the sports, but imo the AD has to take more than those 13 young men and that staff when doing his job.   i question whether you are looking at the big picture Chris May has to look at.  

@Pistol and @billikenfan05 plus others have done deeps dives as to why the success isn't due to Chris May. Literally he's the luckiest AD on the planet to have the non revenue sports where they are right now.

[cgeldmacher]

2 hours ago, TheA_Bomb said:

Roy, I feel you on this, I'm not sure what stage of grief this happens to be. However, I do think the $2.5mil/year is paid by a booster or a few boosters. We learned from fairly anonymous but likely credible sources that SLU has approx $400K in the BVF. So I think boosters are spending the money. My question is are they fed up enough to pay Ford to walk? I think they have to be. If your name is on an empty building that's a hit to your ego. If you have money to try and buy NBA franchises then you have the money to pay Ford to walk. My concern is are they too close to the situation, too snowed by "good guy" Ford to see the problem?

$2.5mil/year is out of whack with the league and results. Adjust that to $1.5 the other money goes into NIL or NIL stays at $400K, I think we can compete. Need a coach that can find players to fit a system and coach em up every season because turn over will continue to be a thing. The right coach can win right away, look at Will Wade at McNeese St. from 328 rank in turn overs to best in the nation, from 11-23 last season to 11-2 right now with a win at Michigan.

This is not a disagreement with anything you or anyone else is saying on this topic, but I'm concerned that this $400K to $500K number for the BVF is not accurate.  This happens often on this board.  Someone will say I heard something from a friend that said that their cousin said this, then a few people will comment about that same sentiment in other posts, and then all of the sudden that statement gets assumed to be fact because its been repeated.

Do we have any real evidence that the BVF has this amount to use?  Is that the amount in the fund, or an amount that we have every year?  I think someone said they had a source, but I can't rely on this source if all I know about it is that it is someone that a poster referred to as a "source."  My point is, let's not start assuming this is fact based upon one person claiming a source and then several uniformed, circulated posts.

[billikenfan05]

30 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

our non revenue sports are in a better place overall they they have been in my fandom (since 1978).   while facilities can still be better, particularly with non revenue sports, the improvements in Chris May's time at SLU has been substantial.   

i know on this board we tend to think "men's basketball" and that makes sense, it pretty much funds all the sports, but imo the AD has to take more than those 13 young men and that staff when doing his job.   i question whether you are looking at the big picture Chris May has to look at.  

Misguided and contradictory. If May is thinking about more than just the basketball team, he better make damn sure they are heading in the right direction. You know who’s likely most unhappy with the lack of basketball success? Kalish, Shields, Hendrickson. The coaches with far less resources doing far better. The ones who count on Basketball revenue. 
 

perhaps if he didn’t run everything other than construction on a shoestring budget. Actually staff his department at a level that is appropriate. Treat and pay his low level staffers better than poor, maybe they’d be able to handle more than one thing at a time. 

[cgeldmacher]

2 hours ago, Soderball said:

I get what you're saying Roy; frankly i don't really care as much if it's just pro sports(which it is) as you do. I do agree that apathy is the best recourse; Ford is gone once the costs to keep him outweigh the costs to fire him. From that perspective I hear you.

I think that the calls to not be outraged or enraged or calling out the crummy AD and mediocrity acceptance of the school is grossly misplaced. We disagree on a lot, but i know perfectly well that you know what you're looking at out there on the court. I just think you're wrong on this and being enraged at and calling for Ford to be gone remains effective and fans should continue to do so, vehemently.

SLU already invested in a D1 program with this champions center and Chaifetz arena. That ship already sailed. I never thought Ford would actually be here for 8 years. These long-running coaching contracts are just idiotic. Noone was ever coming to get CTF. We took a has-been, knew we were taking a has-been, and signed him up like he was Shaka Smart. Nuts.

If you interpreted Roy's post as saying people should not be upset or that folks are not allowed to express outrage, then I think you misread his post.  Read it again.  He simply says that the situation may stay the same for reasons other than performance.

I also question this attitude that is out there that there's a segment of fans arguing with you and telling you not to express your outrage.  Other than a very few, I don't see people expressing that idea at all.  You need to stop raging against the imaginary machine.

[billikenfan05]

8 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

If you interpreted Roy's post as saying people should not be upset or that folks are not allowed to express outrage, then I think you misread his post.  Read it again.  He simply says that the situation may stay the same for reasons other than performance.

I also question this attitude that is out there that there's a segment of fans arguing with you and telling you not to express your outrage.  Other than a very few, I don't see people expressing that idea at all.  You need to stop raging against the imaginary machine.

There is no good reason to not buy out Travis ford. If you do not buy him out you pay the same $ that you would if you did buy him out AND you lose 3-4 years of momentum. With the way NCAA basketball is changing, I have no clue what things will look like by then. 

[TheA_Bomb]

32 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

our non revenue sports are in a better place overall they they have been in my fandom (since 1978).   while facilities can still be better, particularly with non revenue sports, the improvements in Chris May's time at SLU has been substantial.   

i know on this board we tend to think "men's basketball" and that makes sense, it pretty much funds all the sports, but imo the AD has to take more than those 13 young men and that staff when doing his job.   i question whether you are looking at the big picture Chris May has to look at.  

Agree non-revenue sports are doing alright. However, I think the gross negligence of Ford's contract is enough in itself to warrant a change of AD.

[JMM28]

1 hour ago, billiken_roy said:

you got the money to fund the separation and the hiring of a new coach that will win almost immediately?   

No, but the billion dollar operation at SLU does. This is not a lot different than a building on campus falling into disrepair. Would you spend 2.5 million annually on repairs or tear it down and rebuild for 8 million. 

[cgeldmacher]

Just now, billikenfan05 said:

There is no good reason to not buy out Travis ford. If you do not buy him out you pay the same $ that you would if you did buy him out AND you lose 3-4 years of momentum. With the way NCAA basketball is changing, I have no clue what things will look like by then. 

I don't disagree.  I just disagreed with Soderball's interpretation of Roy's post.

Economics wise, you are correct that paying the buyout may be the better financial decision.  I also agree with your take about Ford offering to lower his salary.  What would he make at his next job?  Not $2.5M.  Probably more like $500K to $750K.  It would be better to take decrease now to bring in better players than to lose that much of your money stream over time.  I know he would be owed more from this contract, but if he plans to continue coaching long term, it might be a better call.

[cgeldmacher]

Having said that, we would have to want Ford to continue under a reduced salary and trust that he could turn better quality players into better results.  I think many on this board would say better results may not happen even with better players.

[JMM28]

21 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

This is not a disagreement with anything you or anyone else is saying on this topic, but I'm concerned that this $400K to $500K number for the BVF is not accurate.  This happens often on this board.  Someone will say I heard something from a friend that said that their cousin said this, then a few people will comment about that same sentiment in other posts, and then all of the sudden that statement gets assumed to be fact because its been repeated.

Do we have any real evidence that the BVF has this amount to use?  Is that the amount in the fund, or an amount that we have every year?  I think someone said they had a source, but I can't rely on this source if all I know about it is that it is someone that a poster referred to as a "source."  My point is, let's not start assuming this is fact based upon one person claiming a source and then several uniformed, circulated posts.

It isn't 400k. It is 500k++. It comes from about as knowledgable as you can get and not be named Travis or Fred. Like any donor funded initiative, it is that now but could change by 2 pm if someone gets pissed and pulls their support or adds another 100k on top because they had a good year at the dog track. 

You'll never have evidence of what BVF has, sorry. No NIL collectives are really publishing what they're doing financially. They'll publicize cars, deals with companies, etc, but you won't get the actual payouts to players. There is a lot of bull**** floating around out there about all these deals which is what keeps it interesting. 

[billikenfan05]

4 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

It isn't 400k. It is 500k++. It comes from about as knowledgable as you can get and not be named Travis or Fred. Like any donor funded initiative, it is that now but could change by 2 pm if someone gets pissed and pulls their support or adds another 100k on top because they had a good year at the dog track. 

You'll never have evidence of what BVF has, sorry. No NIL collectives are really publishing what they're doing financially. They'll publicize cars, deals with companies, etc, but you won't get the actual payouts to players. There is a lot of bull**** floating around out there about all these deals which is what keeps it interesting. 

Texas Hold'em

[cheeseman]

10 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

I don't disagree.  I just disagreed with Soderball's interpretation of Roy's post.

Economics wise, you are correct that paying the buyout may be the better financial decision.  I also agree with your take about Ford offering to lower his salary.  What would he make at his next job?  Not $2.5M.  Probably more like $500K to $750K.  It would be better to take decrease now to bring in better players than to lose that much of your money stream over time.  I know he would be owed more from this contract, but if he plans to continue coaching long term, it might be a better call.

Ford's contract is what in business they call "sunk money".  We already have lost it now the question is only do we continue to put good money in a bad deal?  Of course, the answer is no but for some reason some have the idea that it is OK to do this when it comes to Ford's contract.  Additionally, even getting Ford to agree to lower his salary which is highly unlikely, just so that money could be used for NIL payments has one major problem - Ford would still be here and he would then be spending the money on who knows who.  It makes no sense to let the incompetent continue to stay in place and make more incompetent decisions.  Ford is the perfect example of "The Peter Principle".  Time to cut bait and move forward rather than treading water and slipping farther down the current.