GDT - Kentucky Wesleyan Panthers

[JMM28]

13 hours ago, gabriel said:

So smart

Redshirts are 99% of the time a mutual agreement, so yes, he still does. 

[brianstl]

The Kentucky Wesleyan lost to Western Kentucky by 26.  WKU sits at 171 in Kenpom's ratings.

[gabriel]

1 hour ago, JMM28 said:

Redshirts are 99% of the time a mutual agreement, so yes, he still does. 

Lol moving the goalposts

[JMM28]

Just now, gabriel said:

Lol moving the goalposts

No goalposts to be moved.

Would you rather be at a top 15 program in the country with a plan for development, an all-american level center, and a coach with a proven history of getting teams to the big dance or a 100-150 program, with a coach on the hot seat, with apparently no other bigs to practice against, and no history of big guy development? Just the facts. 

[TheA_Bomb]

3 minutes ago, gabriel said:

Lol moving the goalposts

Huh? Ya'll are trying to flex on a college student for going to Creighton instead of SLU.  OK, I want better athletes at SLU and Vice would've been key for SLU this year.  So his loss of playing time. Our loss in personnel. 

But the bigger concern all the current regime apologists need to recognize is that despite the fact he would've been featured at SLU he still chose Creighton and Red Shirting. You can say NIL blah blah or snake oil or whatever but we don't have the player.  That's the regime's failure. Don't hate the player hate the game.  Recognize where the problem lies.

[johnbj14]

6 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

No goalposts to be moved.

Would you rather be at a top 15 program in the country with a plan for development, an all-american level center, and a coach with a proven history of getting teams to the big dance or a 100-150 program, with a coach on the hot seat, with apparently no other bigs to practice against, and no history of big guy development? Just the facts. 

Great post. My only objection is Travis being on the hot seat. He should be feeling the heat, and held to high expectations, but there’s pretty much no indication he actually is. Based on how many international frosh they took on, he’s operating like a guy who knows he has job security. 

[TheA_Bomb]

3 minutes ago, johnbj14 said:

Great post. My only objection is Travis being on the hot seat. He should be feeling the heat, and held to high expectations, but there’s pretty much no indication he actually is. Based on how many international frosh they took on, he’s operating like a guy who knows he has job security. 

He took what he could get. He needed bodies.

Sadly, I'm starting to think that due to buy out that he's not going to be fired.  After listening to Troy (BVF) interview and the lack of ability to land high quality transfers, it leads me to believe the booster monetary support isn't there for expensive things like a buy out.

So I'm not optimistic. I think we're stuck going to be steadily sinking until the buy out becomes affordable or no longer exists.  At that point enthusiasm for the program will be on life support.

Best case scenario, Ford proves me wrong and earns the fat paycheck, raises enthusiasm and we win. I just wouldn't bet on it. So yay go women's Soccer.

[JMM28]

9 minutes ago, johnbj14 said:

Great post. My only objection is Travis being on the hot seat. He should be feeling the heat, and held to high expectations, but there’s pretty much no indication he actually is. Based on how many international frosh they took on, he’s operating like a guy who knows he has job security. 

Good point. I do wonder about the internal dynamics.

I've known coaches who intentionally go young/rebuild mode in an effort to save their job. "I started the x youngest roster in the conference" argument when they're selling their year. It creates a FOMO effect with weak leaders. "If we fire this guy, this all freshman team guy is going too!"

[gabriel]

Ok I’m confused by your guys argument - people were praising brock vice when it looked like he was going to get minutes after their exhibition games this off-season but that’s just not the case.

Now it looks like he’s not good enough to sniff the floor this year and there’s a decent chance that creighton will recruit over him next year with them being a top 10 program and him not being a nationally touted recruit.

 

I may be crazy but I don’t think red shirting is the best path forward for a recruit in todays age of transferring and the NIL

[gabriel]

49 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

Huh? Ya'll are trying to flex on a college student for going to Creighton instead of SLU.  OK, I want better athletes at SLU and Vice would've been key for SLU this year.  So his loss of playing time. Our loss in personnel. 

But the bigger concern all the current regime apologists need to recognize is that despite the fact he would've been featured at SLU he still chose Creighton and Red Shirting. You can say NIL blah blah or snake oil or whatever but we don't have the player.  That's the regime's failure. Don't hate the player hate the game.  Recognize where the problem lies.

I don’t think he knew he was redshirting when he made the transfer over there, you have evidence of that?

[Box and Won]

That just means he'll have four years of eligibility when he comes back to SLU.  Win for us.

[gabriel]

3 guys who played 20 plus minutes his position last night are either sophomore or freshman.

 

But let’s continue the narrative that being a redshirt and the 4th option at the 5 for the next three years (if they don’t bring in other recruits)  is the best option for an nationally unranked recruit.

[wgstl]

1 hour ago, JMM28 said:

No goalposts to be moved.

Would you rather be at a top 15 program in the country with a plan for development, an all-american level center, and a coach with a proven history of getting teams to the big dance or a 100-150 program, with a coach on the hot seat, with apparently no other bigs to practice against, and no history of big guy development? Just the facts. 

spin zone- instead of hot seat, would you rather go to a program that after 8 seasons, just 1 NCAA appearance and no hot seat.  I think that is maybe worse. That means the program is A-okay with where its at. A hot seat makes me at least feel like they care. 

[wgstl]

13 minutes ago, gabriel said:

I don’t think he knew he was redshirting when he made the transfer over there, you have evidence of that?

I don't think he knew he would redshirt, I think he knew minutes would not be there, though. 

[johnbj14]

8 minutes ago, Box and Won said:

That just means he'll have four years of eligibility when he comes back to SLU.  Win for us.

More likely to end up at North Texas than here. Thanks Phil Forte. 

[TheA_Bomb]

8 minutes ago, gabriel said:

I don’t think he knew he was redshirting when he made the transfer over there, you have evidence of that?

Yeah I do, he's red-shirted. Now you can say he didn't know that was going to happen. Maybe he didn't, but like previously stated red-shirting is usually a mutual decision.  Because college isn't a prison term and he can leave.  So the evidence that we know points to the player knowing he would be red-shirted.  Also the rosters are public knowledge maybe he took the time to see who was there and signed as well.

So I'm not sure who's moving goal posts.  A player we really needed, had signed, didn't come to SLU and now is riding the pine, red-shirted.  Whether he knew or not is not 100% known to me. But facts are SLU is in a worse place.  Is that Vice's fault? Or SLU's regime's fault? Also he's not the only player that backed out this class. So not an isolated incident. But keep blaming the players.  Like the Ho's they ain't loyal.

[gabriel]

15 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

Yeah I do, he's red-shirted. Now you can say he didn't know that was going to happen. Maybe he didn't, but like previously stated red-shirting is usually a mutual decision.  Because college isn't a prison term and he can leave.  So the evidence that we know points to the player knowing he would be red-shirted.  Also the rosters are public knowledge maybe he took the time to see who was there and signed as well.

So I'm not sure who's moving goal posts.  A player we really needed, had signed, didn't come to SLU and now is riding the pine, red-shirted.  Whether he knew or not is not 100% known to me. But facts are SLU is in a worse place.  Is that Vice's fault? Or SLU's regime's fault? Also he's not the only player that backed out this class. So not an isolated incident. But keep blaming the players.  Like the Ho's they ain't loyal.

Ok fair points, agree to disagree. 
 

My point was that the best thing for Brock vices development would’ve been to stay at SLU and play unlimited minutes this year (and transfer after the year) then to sit on the bench for a year at creighton. 

 

Other point: College recruiting is a shady games and I wouldn’t put it past a coach to promise a recruit that he will play more minutes than when he ends up playing. 

 

[ACE]

Redshirting is not quite obsolete yet, but increasingly rare in this free agent transfer era.

https://roanoke.com/sports/college/basketball/redshirting-makes-college-basketball-players-better-in-the-portal-era-can-coaches-still-afford-to/article_030619da-0004-11ee-944f-4f6b2a2bca40.html

I guess you could label red-shirting a "mutual" decision, but what kid is going to decide against it if a coach has suggested it? The coach is telling you he's not planning on playing you and if that is the case, why would a kid choose to burn a year of eligibility to sit on the bench?

A total guess, but I suspect that's how it happened with Kramer. He was told he wasn't going to crack the rotation, so he decided to redshirt. Then on to the next stop the following year.

I have no idea how Vice's career will play out at Creighton, but in today's world these situations typically don't result in a player sticking at that one school for 5 years, and often, they will be gone the following season. 

[Cowboy II]

-if he didn't want to redshirt he could have left when McDermott gave the first inkling 

-or he could be a principled young man and honors his commitment......oh wait

[ACE]

1 hour ago, Cowboy II said:

-if he didn't want to redshirt he could have left when McDermott gave the first inkling 

-or he could be a principled young man and honors his commitment......oh wait

If the coach suggests the redshirt after all the preseason practices and after the exhibition games, it's pretty difficult to bolt at that point. If the player says no to the redshirt "suggestion" then he's just going to sit on the bench anyway and burn a year of eligibility.

 

[TheA_Bomb]

5 minutes ago, ACE said:

If the coach suggests the redshirt after all the preseason practices and after the exhibition games, it's pretty difficult to bolt at that point. If he the player says no to the redshirt "suggestion" then he's just going to sit on the bench anyway and burn a year of eligibility.

 

Man this is good stuff. Really makes up for SVB and his 3mpg being our biggest eligible player.  

Making me feel better about SLU by dunking on Vice.

[ACE]

33 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

Man this is good stuff. Really makes up for SVB and his 3mpg being our biggest eligible player.  

Making me feel better about SLU by dunking on Vice.

Huh? I'm hardly "dunking" on him. SLU wanted him for a reason and he seems like he could've been a nice get.

On the other hand, I can understand the sentiment of Cowboy who are miffed that he backed out on a commitment. It will be interesting to see how it plays out. It could turn out to  be a case of him chasing the highest offer, but ultimately having to transfer "down" a bit because it wasn't a good fit. In today's game, a red-shirt freshman year is not a strong indicator of long-term success at a program - that's the point I was making. Scholarships are renewable year-to-year and that's the way both players and coaches view it now. 

[White Pelican]

57 minutes ago, ACE said:

If the coach suggests the redshirt after all the preseason practices and after the exhibition games, it's pretty difficult to bolt at that point. If he the player says no to the redshirt "suggestion" then he's just going to sit on the bench anyway and burn a year of eligibility.

 

Unless something has changed, a player does NOT burn a year if he NEVER enters a game. There is no paperwork involved to declare one is redshirting. You just don't play. He can sit on the bench in uniform but cannot enter a game. If he does, he THEN has "burned" that year.

That said, I think the player still has to play his 4 years within 5. You can't redshirt forever like Bluto Blutarski.

And this is for basketball only. Football has other arrangements.

[gabriel]

1 hour ago, TheA_Bomb said:

Man this is good stuff. Really makes up for SVB and his 3mpg being our biggest eligible player.  

Making me feel better about SLU by dunking on Vice.

not even close to the argument anyone was making.

main point was that redshirting as a freshman isn't the best case scenario in today's ncaa and the brock would be better off playing this year, somehow got taken to slu being better off without him. 

[gobillsgo]

Nothing wrong with calling a tool a tool.  Vice looks pretty dumb with the redshirt, especially in the age of instant eligibility for transfers.  The route to PT at big schools (if that was his goal) for HS seniors, except for the best players in the nation, is playing a lot at smaller schools first.  He will be recruited over in a second at Creighton.