Billiken Basketball in the modern Tournament Era according to Massey

[Billiken Rich]

2 minutes ago, JMM28 said:

I’m not saying he sucks at all. I said he’s a good recruiter and bad at putting those pieces together. Any rational person would come to the same conclusion. And he’s always been that way. As I said “he’s fine if you want a relevant program. He’s not worth what he’s being paid at SLU.”

Maybe I'm just feeling a little negative today. "I said he’s a good recruiter and bad at putting those pieces together" and  ""And he’s always been that way. As I said “he’s fine if you want a relevant program. He’s not worth what he’s being paid at SLU"" sure sounds like suckage to me.  "Any rational person would come to the same conclusion" sounds like we're being irrational.........In your defense I was including other posters in the fire Ford brigade in my thoughts there.

 

 

[TheA_Bomb]

The coaching records and win % do not occur in a vacuum.   Ford has achieved these results in a down A10 without Xavier and Butler.  He doesn't have it as a coach despite great talent Marcus Smart, Forte, Bess, Goodwin, Collins, Jimerson et al.

[Old guy]

15 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said:

The coaching records and win % do not occur in a vacuum.   Ford has achieved these results in a down A10 without Xavier and Butler.  He doesn't have it as a coach despite great talent Marcus Smart, Forte, Bess, Goodwin, Collins, Jimerson et al.

True, but a lot of people are scared of firing him and hiring someone that is worse than the present coach. Mediocrity is comfortable, I suppose.

[thetorch]

Great thread Brian.

Tough question - What if Brad had the foresight to hire that era's version of Corey Tate (Who may just have been Corey Tate)?  Is he better/worse/same as Ford.

[Billiken Rich]

36 minutes ago, thetorch said:

Great thread Brian.

Tough question - What if Brad had the foresight to hire that era's version of Corey Tate (Who may just have been Corey Tate)?  Is he better/worse/same as Ford.

Get Brad and some recruits and I'll take him but I'd rather have Travis as the closer when Corey get them in the building.......

[Bay Area Billiken]

If we were to have a Mt. Rushmore of SLU Basketball Coaches since the end of WWII, meaning 4 Coaches, I think most would agree those Coaches would be:

1.  Eddie Hickey (211-89, .703, 11 years);  2.  John Bennington (118-71, .624, 7 years);  3.  Rick Majerus (95-69, .579, 5 years);  4.  Charlie Spoonhour (122-90, .575, 7 years).

Since only 4 slots are available on our Billiken Mt. Rushmore, Honorable Mention would have to go to Rich Grawer, the Savior of Billiken Basketball as we know it (159-149, .516, 10 years).  Given the state of the program when Grawer assumed command, as in the bottom of rock bottom, he deserves that honorable mention.   I wouldn't be typing this post without Rich Grawer's contributions to the SLU Basketball Program.

My fellow Billikens, young, middle aged, of Social Security eligibility, and beyond, SLU's current Coach, Travis Ford, is in his 7th year, with a won-loss record of 119-81, .595, which is a better winning percentage than both Rick Majerus and Charlie Spoonhour.  Of course, there are explanations, including difficulty of conferences, different times, etc.  But Travis Ford has faced his share of adversity at SLU, including Situation 2, which set him back a season, and the pandemic, which wreaked havoc with 2 seaons.

For the record, SLU's overall record, 1945-46 to present, is 1,260-997, .558.  

Comment:  We need to let this season play out.  In reviewing the past records, the biggest problem SLU has is not the current Coach.  In my opinion, the biggest problem is the current Conference affiliation, the Atlantic 10, where there is almost no reasonable margin for error.  SLU needs to be in a conference wherein if it wins 2/3 of its conference games, 12-6, it would be a lock for an at large NCAA Tournament bid.  However,  I don't think there is any feasible alternative for SLU than the A10.  SLU is basically stuck in it.  But man is it frustrating to go 12-6 in conference play and get relegated to the NIT.

[BC1764]

All of that is nice, but Ford is not a good court general and that has played a significant part in his teams both here, OK State, and UMass, underachieving.

re conference affiliation: This is the result of neglecting the program for two decades (70's-1986) and not capitalizing on the momentum left by two HOF coaches (Spoon and Majerus). Creighton has our spot in the Big East, but that's on SLU not them.

[johnbj14]

There are a lot of things to criticize Travis Ford and the coaching staff about over the last 7 years, but Jordan Goodwin’s development isn’t really one of them. He was a fringe NBA guy during his time at SLU, and went the route of UDFA G-Leaguer to hone his craft. He’s put in thousands of hours as a professional basketball player over the last 18 months with professional skill development staff. Development isn’t linear, and Jordan didn’t magically become a rotation player in the NBA overnight just because he left SLU. 

[billiken_roy]

15 minutes ago, johnbj14 said:

There are a lot of things to criticize Travis Ford and the coaching staff about over the last 7 years, but Jordan Goodwin’s development isn’t really one of them. He was a fringe NBA guy during his time at SLU, and went the route of UDFA G-Leaguer to hone his craft. He’s put in thousands of hours as a professional basketball player over the last 18 months with professional skill development staff. Development isn’t linear, and Jordan didn’t magically become a rotation player in the NBA overnight just because he left SLU. 

but he might have been further along in development with say rickma as his coach for four years and actually been drafted with better development assistance in college.   to not question the difference and question how much assistance ford and/or his staff gave jordan is naive imo.  

[Billiken Rich]

5 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

but he might have been further along in development with say rickma as his coach for four years and actually been drafted with better development assistance in college.   to not question the difference and question how much assistance ford and/or his staff gave jordan is naive imo.  

Not sure I buy that.  Majerus would not have improved Goodwin's shot any.  Majerus technical precision undoubtedly would have translated into more wins for the Billikens.  Other than that I'm not sure how much difference Majerus would've made to Jordan's game......   

[johnbj14]

10 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

but he might have been further along in development with say rickma as his coach for four years and actually been drafted with better development assistance in college.   to not question the difference and question how much assistance ford and/or his staff gave jordan is naive imo.  

We could all play the hypothetical game all day. It’s a pointless exercise that none of us will ever know the answer to. Jordan is an NBA player thanks, in part, to his time at SLU. He’s also an NBA player because he’s worked his tail off in a professional development environment. 

[billiken_roy]

1 minute ago, johnbj14 said:

We could all play the hypothetical game all day. It’s a pointless exercise that none of us will ever know the answer to. Jordan is an NBA player thanks, in part, to his time at SLU. He’s also an NBA player because he’s worked his tail off in a professional development environment. 

i say he is an nba player in spite of his time at slu.   just an example of a what if to support my view, his freshman season goodwin played a lot more point guard than any other season as a billiken.    he even had a triple double one game if i recall correctly.   what position is he primarily playing right now in the nba ?  point guard.   now what if he had continued to be the main billiken point guard instead of some sort of undersized power forward that he was never going to play after his slu days?    he would likely be a lot further along in his nba journey.   

i understand he had to switch positions with collins coming in.   but the debate isnt about what was best for the billikens (which jordan undoubted did what was best for the team) the point is his sacrifice retarded his future development.   only because of his own will and efforts is he where he is today.

[Billiken Rich]

Just now, billiken_roy said:

 only because of his own will and efforts is he where he is today.

Found the sentence I could mostly agree with.  I'd nit-pick the word "only" but don't want to be petty.  Sorry but kids playing the position needed by their team is pretty common in all sports everywhere.  

[RUBillsFan]

10 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

i say he is an nba player in spite of his time at slu.   just an example of a what if to support my view, his freshman season goodwin played a lot more point guard than any other season as a billiken.    he even had a triple double one game if i recall correctly.   what position is he primarily playing right now in the nba ?  point guard.   now what if he had continued to be the main billiken point guard instead of some sort of undersized power forward that he was never going to play after his slu days?    he would likely be a lot further along in his nba journey.   

i understand he had to switch positions with collins coming in.   but the debate isnt about what was best for the billikens (which jordan undoubted did what was best for the team) the point is his sacrifice retarded his future development.   only because of his own will and efforts is he where he is today.

NBA teams often have multiple guys handling the ball.  A guy who is billed as the "point guard" in an NBA lineup is often times not the primary ball handler especially on a team with Bradley Beal.  Goodwin learning to play off-ball at SLU was a positive for his NBA development even if it may have hindered his ability to put up eye popping stat lines that may have gotten him drafted instead of having to go the G League route.

[cgeldmacher]

2 hours ago, billiken_roy said:

i say he is an nba player in spite of his time at slu.   just an example of a what if to support my view, his freshman season goodwin played a lot more point guard than any other season as a billiken.    he even had a triple double one game if i recall correctly.   what position is he primarily playing right now in the nba ?  point guard.   now what if he had continued to be the main billiken point guard instead of some sort of undersized power forward that he was never going to play after his slu days?    he would likely be a lot further along in his nba journey.   

i understand he had to switch positions with collins coming in.   but the debate isnt about what was best for the billikens (which jordan undoubted did what was best for the team) the point is his sacrifice retarded his future development.   only because of his own will and efforts is he where he is today.

I'm a big fan of Coach Majerus, but he put zero Billikens in the NBA.  Coach Ford has one.  That's the only statistic that matters for this argument.  I'm not saying Coach Ford is the better coach.  Just saying that we can't argue Majerus would have done more with Goodwin.

[RUBillsFan]

52 minutes ago, cgeldmacher said:

I'm a big fan of Coach Majerus, but he put zero Billikens in the NBA.  Coach Ford has one.  That's the only statistic that matters for this argument.  I'm not saying Coach Ford is the better coach.  Just saying that we can't argue Majerus would have done more with Goodwin.

We have more data than just their time at SLU though:

 

Travis Ford (8 NBA players in 23 season coached):

Jordan Goodwin (SLU)

Jawun Evans (OK State)

Marcus Smart (OK State)

Markel Brown (OK State)

James Anderson (OK State)

Terrel Harris (OK State)

Gary Forbes (UMass)

Stephane Lasme (UMass)

 

Rick Majerus (10 NBA players in 25 seasons coached):

Willie Reed (SLU)

Andrew Bogut (Utah)

Britton Johnsen (Utah)

Lance Allred (Utah)

Hanno Mottola (Utah)

Andre Miller (Utah)

Michael Doleac (Utah)

Keith Van Horn (Utah)

Josh Grant (Utah)

Tom Copa (Marquette)

 

Not much of a difference overall.  I'm not sure you can argue having Majerus or Ford as you college coach makes it more likely for you to get to the NBA.

[JohnnyJumpUp]

1 minute ago, RUBillsFan said:

We have more data than just their time at SLU though:

 

Travis Ford (8 NBA players in 23 season coached):

Jordan Goodwin (SLU)

Jawun Evans (OK State)

Marcus Smart (OK State)

Markel Brown (OK State)

James Anderson (OK State)

Terrel Harris (OK State)

Gary Forbes (UMass)

Stephane Lasme (UMass)

 

Rick Majerus (9 NBA players in 25 seasons coached):

Andrew Bogut (Utah)

Britton Johnsen (Utah)

Lance Allred (Utah)

Hanno Mottola (Utah)

Andre Miller (Utah)

Michael Doleac (Utah)

Keith Van Horn (Utah)

Josh Grant (Utah)

Tom Copa (Marquette)

 

Not much of a difference overall.  I'm not sure you can argue having Majerus or Ford as you college coach makes it more likely for you to get to the NBA.

Willie Reed doesn't count?

[billiken_roy]

while at slu did rickma bring in a freshman as highly ranked as goodwin was out of high school?   my point is he took lesser players and made them better.   so if goodwin came in higher already, i contend rickma would have had him higher by graduation.   again the discussion is about player development and making a player better than when he came to slu.

[Billiken Rich]

20 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

while at slu did rickma bring in a freshman as highly ranked as goodwin was out of high school?   my point is he took lesser players and made them better.   so if goodwin came in higher already, i contend rickma would have had him higher by graduation.   again the discussion is about player development and making a player better than when he came to slu.

Good grief Roy.  Highly ranked freshmen flame out all the time.  You might believe Majerus would've turned Jordan into a lottery pick but that doesn't make it so.  Was it Majerus' fault that Tommie Liddell didn't make the NBA and didn't play his natural position?

[RUBillsFan]

39 minutes ago, JohnnyJumpUp said:

Willie Reed doesn't count?

Yep.  Totally glossed over him / didn't even check the SLU teams because I had it in my head that Rickma didn't have an NBAer at SLU.  Will edit my post accordingly.

[brianstl]

32 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

while at slu did rickma bring in a freshman as highly ranked as goodwin was out of high school?   my point is he took lesser players and made them better.   so if goodwin came in higher already, i contend rickma would have had him higher by graduation.   again the discussion is about player development and making a player better than when he came to slu.

Jordan was highly ranked, but he wasn't viewed as a NBA prospect coming out of high school.  He left SLU as a NBA prospect even if it was as a fringe prospect.

[courtside]

57 minutes ago, RUBillsFan said:

We have more data than just their time at SLU though:

 

Travis Ford (8 NBA players in 23 season coached):

Jordan Goodwin (SLU)

Jawun Evans (OK State)

Marcus Smart (OK State)

Markel Brown (OK State)

James Anderson (OK State)

Terrel Harris (OK State)

Gary Forbes (UMass)

Stephane Lasme (UMass)

 

Rick Majerus (10 NBA players in 25 seasons coached):

Willie Reed (SLU)

Andrew Bogut (Utah)

Britton Johnsen (Utah)

Lance Allred (Utah)

Hanno Mottola (Utah)

Andre Miller (Utah)

Michael Doleac (Utah)

Keith Van Horn (Utah)

Josh Grant (Utah)

Tom Copa (Marquette)

 

Not much of a difference overall.  I'm not sure you can argue having Majerus or Ford as you college coach makes it more likely for you to get to the NBA.

Now add the dozen plus players that made the NBA while Majerus was an assistant. He even gave Glenn Rivers his nickname ame after all. 

[Billiken Rich]

6 minutes ago, courtside said:

Now add the dozen plus players that made the NBA while Majerus was an assistant. He even gave Glenn Rivers his nickname ame after all. 

Now add the thousands that watched him on tv and so on.....

[courtside]

9 minutes ago, Billiken Rich said:

Now add the thousands that watched him on tv and so on.....

Huh? Majerus worked with Rivers on his game since he was in grade school. He recruited him to college, and he was a big part of his player development. And Rivers was not the only player.

[Old guy]

About Jordan Goodwin while he was playing for SLU. He was one of the top players, if not the top player in the SLU team. Players  who are the best of a team, really have little incentive to become better than they are.  Once he joined the G league and got a clear idea of how much he had to improve to reach the goal, went to work on improving his game, and got there, or so it appears to be. He made it happen.