Women's Basketball Team

[moytoy12]

Me thinks some of you have unrealistic expectations.

[HenryB]

6 hours ago, bauman said:

If you don't think Grawer's program was trending downward then look at the record his last year and the year after he left. Even though that latter year had a few nice recruits, it still took Spoon a couple of year (including the addition of H Waldman) to get the program up to an outstanding level.  Kind of like it is taking TF a few years to recover from the Crews era disaster

I find it interesting now that RG and TF have one similar trait.  Yanking a player, immediately,  if he makes a mistake.  It is also interesting that both of them had sons who were about the same age and who excelled in basketball.  You would have thought that having basketball playing sons would have made them more patient with mistakes that all players make.

That last paragraph is in no way intended to indicate that I have problems with TF, because I don't.  I think he is the best recruiter we have ever had and does a very good job coaching the talent he has-I want him to stay as long as possible.  I just point out what I feel is a minor trait, in the overall scheme of being a head coach.

I guess this has taken us off track from the Lady Bills.  Sorry.

My point it that it is unfair to compare Rich to Stone.  Rich took the program from dead and created a buzz and started filling the building.  We were on the verge of no longer being a D1 program.  His local recruiting was outstanding...Douglas, Gray, Bonner, Robinson, Claggett, Winfield,  Highmark, etc.  We had the worst facilities in a very tough conference.   And since when is a coach pulling a player out after a mistake unusual? Not trying to start anything  but I am never going to forget the great times in the old Kiel that Rich was responsible for.

[billikenfan05]

6 hours ago, moytoy12 said:

Me thinks some of you have unrealistic expectations.

BingFuokingO

[Pistol]

7 hours ago, moytoy12 said:

Me thinks some of you have unrealistic expectations.

No kidding.

For those who need a primer on where this women's basketball program is compared to where it has been historically, browse away: https://admin.xosn.com/fls/27200//pdfs/2017-18 Saint Louis WBB Record Book.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=27200

Look at those season records starting on page 11. 2015-2016 and 2016-2017 were by far the best records this program has ever compiled. The previous high win total was 18 (!), set back in the program's infancy in the late 70s (and look at those opponents). This season was only the program's 13th winning season. They've never made the NCAA Tournament. Stone is only the second coach with a winning record.

The key for this program is sustaining competitiveness, then taking the next step. They've had 3 winning seasons in a row, including the two highest win totals of all time. There's something to build on here, and that's honestly a first for the program.

[cheeseman]

What has happened the with the most recent women program is what happens to lots of coaches - you start off recruiting well but then the newness wears off and the coach  has less than great results.  The question now is can Stone reignite her recruiting.  Some have said this year's class is a good one if so then maybe she has powered through the lull.  I agree with Pistol - this program has not been good so lets give her a little slack/time.  She just recently signed a new contract so the school is not going to fire her - not SLU's MO.

[Pistol]

If Jill Pizzotti got 10 full seasons before being fired, then Stone has already earned a 20-year extension.

The incoming class is good. They might be down a little next year but should be competitive in the A10 for the foreseeable future.

Remember: Getting to the NCAA Tournament is the current goal for this program. They've never been there. They were pretty close this season, given how the conference tournament shook out. If they could've gotten past St. Joe's, another winnable game was waiting. Stay competitive in the league, keep making progress, upgrade the talent level year after year, and their chances will be there.

[MusicCityBilliken]

3 hours ago, HenryB said:

We had the worst facilities in a very tough conference.  

I'll accept the West Pine was bad but tough conference?? We were in the MCC. Now when we moved to the Great  Midwest, that was a tough conference and RG balked at that openly.  He admitted we could not compete in that GMW.

When Marquette & Dayton later joined the MCC they saw immediately that the MCC was driving its basketball programs to mediocrity and together with Yow pushed for the forming of the Great Midwest. Problem with the Great Midwest was it shortly morphed into CUSA and we know how that went.

BTW, even after the firing RG we were still in the West Pine for another 17 years, that made it almost impossible to build on any temporary success we had.

[RiseAndGrind]

19 minutes ago, Pistol said:

If Jill Pizzotti got 10 full seasons before being fired, then Stone has already earned a 20-year extension.

The incoming class is good. They might be down a little next year but should be competitive in the A10 for the foreseeable future.

Remember: Getting to the NCAA Tournament is the current goal for this program. They've never been there. They were pretty close this season, given how the conference tournament shook out. If they could've gotten past St. Joe's, another winnable game was waiting. Stay competitive in the league, keep making progress, upgrade the talent level year after year, and their chances will be there.

Jill never should have gotten 10 full seasons. 

[Pistol]

31 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

Jill never should have gotten 10 full seasons. 

She was an awful coach. I had the misfortune of watching that era up close. They had the NIT season, but that ended up being her last winning season (she had 2 of them in a full decade).

[MusicCityBilliken]

34 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

Jill never should have gotten 10 full seasons. 

You're right but no one cared back then. Then they hired Shimmy who may been a worse alternative.

[billiken_roy]

actually shimmy was a good recruiter.   just a real bad coach.   watching a shimmy coached game was painful with all the fundamentally wrong stuff going on.    but she did get some nice talent to come to slu considering what jill brought in before her.    shimmy would serve as a good asst coach that just went out and got players.   she is the example of being promoted once too far.  

[Pistol]

4 minutes ago, tarheelbilliken said:

You're right but no one cared back then. Then they hired Shimmy who may been a worse alternative.

To be fair, Shimmy felt like the right hire at the time. She had a ton of energy, seemed like she could sell the program to recruits and fans, came from a big program, and really presented well. She turned out to be quite a dud, but that was hard to tell at the time.

She's interim HC at Texas Tech right now, by the way. They've won once since she was named, but she took over a brutally bad team midseason.

[billikenfan05]

24 minutes ago, tarheelbilliken said:

You're right but no one cared back then. Then they hired Shimmy who may been a worse alternative.

 

19 minutes ago, billiken_roy said:

actually shimmy was a good recruiter.   just a real bad coach.   watching a shimmy coached game was painful with all the fundamentally wrong stuff going on.    but she did get some nice talent to come to slu considering what jill brought in before her.    shimmy would serve as a good asst coach that just went out and got players.   she is the example of being promoted once too far.  

 

16 minutes ago, Pistol said:

To be fair, Shimmy felt like the right hire at the time. She had a ton of energy, seemed like she could sell the program to recruits and fans, came from a big program, and really presented well. She turned out to be quite a dud, but that was hard to tell at the time.

She's interim HC at Texas Tech right now, by the way. They've won once since she was named, but she took over a brutally bad team midseason.

Shimmy could recruit, I don't think I paid enough attention to her in game coaching ability. SLU was her first head coaching gig. If you get a chance watch The Gray Seasons. I think it's clear from the movie that the true issue was her inability to manage the personalities of a women's college basketball team. So many players came in and transferred out or quit. I just don't think she was ready yet and I would imagine she has improved in this area.

You can watch the full movie here. https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+gray+seasons&view=detail&mid=ACB963B038CDA941CE44ACB963B038CDA941CE44&FORM=VIRE

[RUBillsFan]

Others have already made this point, but I wanted to put numbers to it:

Historical RPI for the WBBills from 2003-04(earliest I could find) to 2017-18: 187, 215, 293, 185, 232, 143, 231, 279, 229,(Stone becomes head coach) 201, 208, 150, 54, 94, 118.

Unless the RPIs fall consistently back into the 200s, SLU shouldn't even dream about firing Stone.

[Cowboy]

-google is not my friend in getting this info easily, is the A10 historically or typically a JBL for the women? Juan Bid League 

 

[HenryB]

3 hours ago, tarheelbilliken said:

I'll accept the West Pine was bad but tough conference?? We were in the MCC. Now when we moved to the Great  Midwest, that was a tough conference and RG balked at that openly.  He admitted we could not compete in that GMW.

When Marquette & Dayton later joined the MCC they saw immediately that the MCC was driving its basketball programs to mediocrity and together with Yow pushed for the forming of the Great Midwest. Problem with the Great Midwest was it shortly morphed into CUSA and we know how that went.

BTW, even after the firing RG we were still in the West Pine for another 17 years, that made it almost impossible to build on any temporary success we had.

In those days Xavier and Evansville were both very good programs and both made a number of touurnanent appearances.  Was it the ACC? No.  But very good basketball was played.  In those days it was basically a one bid league.  Rich's problem was that he was never quite good enough to finish first.  In particular we couldn't get past X.  That, however, doesn't diminish his accomplishments.  We would have been a great program then if we had even close to the facilities we have now.  I have no gripes with Stone...but comparing her to Grawer is silly.  We most likely wouldn't have a D1 program without him.  

[Pistol]

1 hour ago, Cowboy said:

-google is not my friend in getting this info easily, is the A10 historically or typically a JBL for the women? Juan Bid League 

No, and last year's Tournament was the only in recent history in which the league only captured one bid, which went to Dayton. It typically gets 2-3 into the Tournament, and is predicted to get 2 spots in the current Bracketology.

[Cowboy]

33 minutes ago, Pistol said:

No, and last year's Tournament was the only in recent history in which the league only captured one bid, which went to Dayton. It typically gets 2-3 into the Tournament, and is predicted to get 2 spots in the current Bracketology.

-thank you

-this part is not a response to Pistol, and I am not advocating being rid of CStone at this time, but some posts in this thread make it seem like she should have the job until she decides it is no longer hers, at some point, in a multi-bid league, does she have the responsibility to get the team to the tourney? or is she not being the resources promised or necessary to do the task? again, I am not saying be rid of her now, but am wondering how long she gets if no tourney appearance

[Spoon-Balls]

20 hours ago, cheeseman said:

I am confused don't the women play in the same arena as the men?  I think you are off the mark with that one.

 I was more so referring to our outdoor facilities

[Pistol]

4 minutes ago, Cowboy said:

-thank you

-this part is not a response to Pistol, and I am not advocating being rid of CStone at this time, but some posts in this thread make it seem like she should have the job until she decides it is no longer hers, at some point, in a multi-bid league, does she have the responsibility to get the team to the tourney? or is she not being the resources promised or necessary to do the task? again, I am not saying be rid of her now, but am wondering how long she gets if no tourney appearance

That's a good question. What is the limit for a coach who is basically starting from zero? How much time does she get to reach the Tournament? To win a Tournament game?

Her predecessor got 7 years. She had no winning seasons. The coach before her got 10 years and posted 2 winning seasons.

Stone just wrapped up year 6 at SLU (assuming no postseason play). She signed a long-term contract extension in June 2016, and SLU didn't disclose the terms so I don't know how long it goes. This year was a down year at 17-15 after winning 25+ games each of the previous two seasons. A few key players graduate and it's safe to assume .500 would be a success next season based on that.

So the near term is going to be challenging for her, but I would hope they're looking strong again in 2-3 seasons. I think a lot depends on how good the incoming class is.

[Cowboy]

48 minutes ago, Pistol said:

That's a good question. What is the limit for a coach who is basically starting from zero? How much time does she get to reach the Tournament? To win a Tournament game?

Her predecessor got 7 years. She had no winning seasons. The coach before her got 10 years and posted 2 winning seasons.

Stone just wrapped up year 6 at SLU (assuming no postseason play). She signed a long-term contract extension in June 2016, and SLU didn't disclose the terms so I don't know how long it goes. This year was a down year at 17-15 after winning 25+ games each of the previous two seasons. A few key players graduate and it's safe to assume .500 would be a success next season based on that.

So the near term is going to be challenging for her, but I would hope they're looking strong again in 2-3 seasons. I think a lot depends on how good the incoming class is.

-yep

[ARon]

On 3/3/2018 at 5:34 PM, Billy Ken said:

A lot of money that program gets I've heard. A lot.

So what?  Even if they take it away, it’s not going to any men’s team.

[Billy Ken]

4 minutes ago, ARon said:

So what?  Even if they take it away, it’s not going to any men’s team.

Throwing good money away. 

[billikenfan05]

The fact is Stone has brought us to the level of respectability. She deserves a chance to build on that. You have to understand that for non power programs the goal is to make a good run once every 4 years that’s the cold hard reality 

Non-revenues sports are a completely different animals and each have unique set of challenges. First and foremost: look at the facility disparity between power baseball/softball. So not only do you have to go on the road for the first month of your season, you have to recruit against that. There are teams that play in better parks than minor league teams, facility upgrades are never going to get us there. 

Building a program from nothing to a consistent winner takes longer than 6 years. Looks at Anne Kordes, her program was heading for a downturn when her 5 player first recruiting class graduated. 

[RUBillsFan]

It has been mentioned that the recruiting class that Stone is bringing in next year is very good.  It is probably worth mentioning that it it the 33rd ranked recruiting class in the country which is absurdly good for a women's program at SLU's level of prestige (or lack thereof) (http://www.slubillikens.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=632636&SPID=93216&DB_OEM_ID=27200&ATCLID=211686951).

Ciaja Harbison seems primed to fill the void left by Kemph (http://www.slubillikens.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=632636&SPID=93216&DB_OEM_ID=27200&ATCLID=211704467).