Neufeld?

[billikenbill]

I miss Rich Niemann.

That should read "former Carolina Cougar Rich Niemann." Give credit where credit is due. Averaged 11 points, and 9 boards per game for the '69-'70 Cougars. Why did they trade him?

[almaman]

Good points, Clock.

And I will add that WR probably would have lasted for many years at Mizzou... so much easier for jocks to get grades there.

And tail.

[slufanskip]

All the rest had a coach. Willie Reed a great one. I'd start Willie over any center in the last 25 years including Ian. I'm not saying Gillman and Jolly would be great or Willie if they had Majerus or even Brad as their coach ... but they'd be better. And .. I'm not a fan of either really. I just think this team is so completely void of player development that it's sad. Reynolds has improved and maybe Crawford since they came in ... who else? anyone?

[majerus mojo]

Okay. Here some comments and stats on WR. Read the attached box scores and draw your own conclusions.

First, I really liked Willie Reed, was glad he played for us and only wish he had been interested in being a student athlete more than only being an athlete because we would have had a special team had he and Kwamain played their JR year. Yes, it was nice that KM redshirted and returned to be part of our second NCAA Tourney team (Crews' interim year) and did not graduate/run out of eligibility the same time Conklin did; however, we could have had 4 NCAA Tourney teams, Also, had we been able to get Cody Ellis cleared by the NCAA earlier January, the year prior (2008-2009) also would have been an NCAA Tourney team (5 straight NCAA Tourney teams!!) instead of a CBI Finals year.Had either or both of these events occurred, the momentum behind the program would have started earlier, Chaifetz would have been filled a year earlier, 1 to 2 more years of NCAA Tourney money would have been produced, less problems and friction would have existed between RM and Fr. Biondi ... and our program would have been better off. What if.... Then, again, the Situation/WR's academic problems would have been the end for most SLU coaches -- but RM actually over came such a devastating blow to the basketball program and still got us to the NCAA Tourney and the game against Michigan State while leaving the team stocked for 2 more years of NCAA Tournament success with Crews at the helm.

Second, I would rather have WR the basketball player (not WR the student athlete) on this year's team ahead of Neufeld, Gillman, Jolly and Agbeko. Blocked shots, rebounds and an inside presence are items not found in a box score.

Third, I believe 7.7 points per game from a Freshman big is really good -- especially for a Freshman -- but Freshman do take time to develop and do have limitations. Also, I believe most of think of the Sophomore WR and/or what WR could have been his JR and SR years rather than what WR really was his Freshman year.

Fourth, here's some of the "negative" about one of our better bigs from his Freshman year -- approximately 1/2 the season of average to poor offensive production (WR did NOT put up 7.7 ppg each game):

4 games he played and only scored 2 points:

UMSL, Detroit, UMass and Dayton while playing 14, 9, 22 and 22 minutes per game

4 games he played and only scored 4 points:

UMBC, Xavier, GW and Temple while playing 26, 18, 22 and 23 minutes per game

2 games he played and only scored 5 points:

Nebraska, and Duquesne while playing 18 and 14 minutes per game

3 games he played and only scored 6 points:

Kent State, NCA&T and UD while playing 15, 18 and 29 points per game.

Fifth, it should go without saying but I will say it anyway that for every game WR scored under 7 points per game there are many games he scored more than 7 ppg to bring his Freshman year total up to the 7.7 ppg stat. Also, of course, there are more contributions a good player can and does make each game such as rebounds, blocked shots and defense. At the same time, I do recall have personal recollections of WR playing real one game and not so well the next game (typical of a freshmen). I also recall WR being "rusty" in the early going and all the comments on this Board because he had not played organized basketball in a long time having had to sit out his Senior year of high school basketball. I also recall WR getting pushed around and dominated by a few of the better, bigger, stronger and more veteran centers.

My above point is not to trash WR or take statistics out of context and twist them like Stan Kroenke apparently likes to do but simply to remind that even good players (WR) struggled while having their good moments as freshmen. did not give a consistent and quality effort each and every game and that Freshmen, especially bigs, do take longer to develop.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwj09ofG65vKAhVJ-2MKHTRQCl0QFggcMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.slubillikens.com%2Ffls%2F27200%2FMBB%2F200809%2Fstats%2FTEAMSTAT.HTM%3F%26%26DB_OEM_ID%3D27200&usg=AFQjCNHfb5BZRSROFAzzDzQ2CIqKI0aAiA

What a weird, weird post. Why was that so long, we all know how averages work. Please let us know what you think about WRs academics one more time. And of course MB was quick to approve ??

[almaman]

All the rest had a coach. Willie Reed a great one. I'd start Willie over any center in the last 25 years including Ian.

easily. have we had any big in that period that you could say with a straight face had NBA potential and here's our proof WR in NBA

[milwaukeebill]

What a weird, weird post. Why was that so long, we all know how averages work. Please let us know what you think about WRs academics one more time. And of course MB was quick to approve ??

Nothing quite like someone explaining that WR didn't score exactly 7 points a game just because 7 ppg was his season average.

[Clock_Tower]

What a weird, weird post. Why was that so long, we all know how averages work. Please let us know what you think about WRs academics one more time. And of course MB was quick to approve

Don't read my posts if you cannot understand them. Trust me, I don't read yours - but then again, that's because you have so little to offer the Board.

[Clock_Tower]

I don't think anybody ever accused Willie of being a perfect or even an overly consistent player when he was here. But he, along with Loe and all the others mentioned, is proof that freshman centers can and do start and make contributions. It's not anywhere near as unheard of as people have been claiming on here since this new class came in.

No. No one has commented here recently about WR being an inconsistent player. Instead, I do believe that many have done, and are doing, much far worse: placing unfair expectations upon our younger players. If one of our better bigs over the past 25 years played inconsistently as a freshman and scored 6 or less points per game with less competition for minutes, then slack should be afforded to our current bigs. Frustration at the progress (or lack thereof) of the program, at the head coach, at recruiting, etc. should be be laid at the feet of 18 and 19 year olds.

I am more than pleased at the recruiting and play of last year's Frosh (last season) whom we should not have had to rely upon as freshmen. I also believe that Neufeld and Bishop will both be good D1 players. At the same time, I am not pleased at the development (or lack thereof) of this class this season. While Miles has certainly improved, others have not and appear to have actually regressed. While I am pleased at the result of the GW game and while I truly believe we have more talent on this team than our record and level of play would indicate, I am not pleased that our guys still cannot set a proper screen and/or use a screen set for them. Dumb mistakes such as the inability to inbound the ball continue to plague this team -- we had the ball with seconds left against GW and gave the ball away and would have lost if GW could have hit a FT. I am not pleased that we continue to have defensive breakdowns whereby 3 or 4 guys play good defense but then 1 or 2 waste such effort and our team loses much needed momentum while giving the opposition uncontested points. I remain perplexed why we play guys based upon their height and traditional notions that tall players are needed to score inside and rebound when they don't. I don't understand why our bigs do not appear to be allowed to contest shots by the opposition's bigs but instead appear to be told only to stand their ground with both arms raised. I don't understand why we do not press teams at key times. I scratch my head wondering why we don't set screens for Crawford, why we don't have Malik float through the lane, why we don't try to penetrate the lane on offense and why we don't try to get offensive rebounds preferring to immediately run back on defense. All of this comes down to coaching -- or lack thereof.

[CBFan]

No. No one has commented here recently about WR being an inconsistent player. Instead, I do believe that many have done, and are doing, much far worse: placing unfair expectations upon our younger players. If one of our better bigs over the past 25 years played inconsistently as a freshman and scored 6 or less points per game with less competition for minutes, then slack should be afforded to our current bigs. Frustration at the progress (or lack thereof) of the program, at the head coach, at recruiting, etc. should be be laid at the feet of 18 and 19 year olds.

I am more than pleased at the recruiting and play of last year's Frosh (last season) whom we should not have had to rely upon as freshmen. I also believe that Neufeld and Bishop will both be good D1 players. At the same time, I am not pleased at the development (or lack thereof) of this class this season. While Miles has certainly improved, others have not and appear to have actually regressed. While I am pleased at the result of the GW game and while I truly believe we have more talent on this team than our record and level of play would indicate, I am not pleased that our guys still cannot set a proper screen and/or use a screen set for them. Dumb mistakes such as the inability to inbound the ball continue to plague this team -- we had the ball with seconds left against GW and gave the ball away and would have lost if GW could have hit a FT. I am not pleased that we continue to have defensive breakdowns whereby 3 or 4 guys play good defense but then 1 or 2 waste such effort and our team loses much needed momentum while giving the opposition uncontested points. I remain perplexed why we play guys based upon their height and traditional notions that tall players are needed to score inside and rebound when they don't. I don't understand why our bigs do not appear to be allowed to contest shots by the opposition's bigs but instead appear to be told only to stand their ground with both arms raised. I don't understand why we do not press teams at key times. I scratch my head wondering why we don't set screens for Crawford, why we don't have Malik float through the lane, why we don't try to penetrate the lane on offense and why we don't try to get offensive rebounds preferring to immediately run back on defense. All of this comes down to coaching -- or lack thereof.

Great post, I agree with your analysis of this team and players. I think Bishop and Neufeld will become solid contributors. I think Jolly Neufeld and Gillman should be used as back ups that can give quality minutes at times just like Jolly did against GW. Which ever one Jolly, Neufeld and Gillman play well in a back up roll that game stay with a hot hand if that happens. Gillman playing too long is exposed and it hurts the team. The five starters should be Roby, Agbeko, Reynolds, Crawford, and Ash. If Bartley subs and does not make the dumb mistakes of fouling the three point shooter then keep him in otherwise play Bishop in the back up role whoever plays well that game plays more. If none of the subs play well then play the starters a lot of minutes.

[JMM28]

Great post, I agree with your analysis of this team and players. I think Bishop and Neufeld will become solid contributors. I think Jolly Neufeld and Gillman should be used as back ups that can give quality minutes at times just like Jolly did against GW. Which ever one Jolly, Neufeld and Gillman play well in a back up roll that game stay with a hot hand if that happens. Gillman playing too long is exposed and it hurts the team. The five starters should be Roby, Agbeko, Reynolds, Crawford, and Ash. If Bartley subs and does not make the dumb mistakes of fouling the three point shooter then keep him in otherwise play Bishop in the back up role whoever plays well that game plays more. If none of the subs play well then play the starters a lot of minutes.

So you're comfortable wasting 3 scholarships hoping for a hot hand, having a weird rotation, all to play maybe .500 ball?

I'm as big of a "bigs need time" advocate as anyone here. The problem is that you can't have 1/4 of your roster occupied by project big men, especially when those are the bugs you're counting on.

[CBFan]

So you're comfortable wasting 3 scholarships hoping for a hot hand, having a weird rotation, all to play maybe .500 ball?

I'm as big of a "bigs need time" advocate as anyone here. The problem is that you can't have 1/4 of your roster occupied by project big men, especially when those are the bugs you're counting on.

No, but you can only work with what you have and these are the scholarship players so moving forward this season play the 5 best and sub with whoever plays better and stay with that rotation game by game. I would have been much better if Tatum, Macura, Roberson, Martin, and Ramey signed. I watch the former recruits Macura, Roberson, Martin and Ramey play all of the time and had those 4 signed added with Abeka, Crawford, Ash, Roby, and Reynolds I do not think anyone would be unhappy with the current season.

[MB73]

So you're comfortable wasting 3 scholarships hoping for a hot hand, having a weird rotation, all to play maybe .500 ball?

I'm as big of a "bigs need time" advocate as anyone here. The problem is that you can't have 1/4 of your roster occupied by project big men, especially when those are the bugs you're counting on.

OK, we should have signed some 5* BIGS that can produce as freshmen and sophs... sure!

Look, we all are not pleased with our young BIGS at this point, but it is rare that SLU can get BIGS that can really contribute as freshmen or sophs.

Crews has had to rebuild from scratch, BIGS are the key, and he only had a chronically hobbled Manning last year as a upperclassman BIG, and this year Reggie is the only upperclassman BIG.

Yes we all know WR did well on the court but he ultimately failed for us as a player due to academics... we just cannot get that type at SLU than can do the required classwork. Some schools let kids like him stay in school.

[Soderball]

Whats up with needing enormous textwalls to make a crappy argument that we need mediocre players instead of the first billiken to put on an nba uniform since the Legend?

If you want to criticize WR you need to bring up Applebee's, not all this stuff.

[RiseAndGrind]

OK, we should have signed some 5* BIGS that can produce as freshmen and sophs... sure!

Look, we all are not pleased with our young BIGS at this point, but it is rare that SLU can get BIGS that can really contribute as freshmen or sophs.

Crews has had to rebuild from scratch, BIGS are the key, and he only had a chronically hobbled Manning last year as a upperclassman BIG, and this year Reggie is the only upperclassman BIG.

Yes we all know WR did well on the court but he ultimately failed for us as a player due to academics... we just cannot get that type at SLU than can do the required classwork. Some schools let kids like him stay in school.

"Scratch" = best 3 year run in SLU history?

[JMM28]

OK, we should have signed some 5* BIGS that can produce as freshmen and sophs... sure!

Look, we all are not pleased with our young BIGS at this point, but it is rare that SLU can get BIGS that can really contribute as freshmen or sophs.

Crews has had to rebuild from scratch, BIGS are the key, and he only had a chronically hobbled Manning last year as a upperclassman BIG, and this year Reggie is the only upperclassman BIG.

Yes we all know WR did well on the court but he ultimately failed for us as a player due to academics... we just cannot get that type at SLU than can do the required classwork. Some schools let kids like him stay in school.

I won't even respond to your typical argument first point.

Yes it is rare that SLU can find big men that contribute year one and two. That's exactly what I said in my post.

Crews assembled this entire roster as if he had 20+ scholarships to work with. Duplication is seen all over this thing. There are enough 2/3 types to run a 5 on 5 practice. 4 big men that have the exact same (lack of) skill sets and/or are total projects. Jim Crews is like your crazy neighbor that hoards in her garage. Except Crews garage is filled with 6-10 white guys that aren't good at basketball.

Willie had his share of issues, but let's not act like SLU is some sort of Harvard here. Plenty of dipshits have made it through while playing basketball. I had classes with Justin Johnson. He wasn't smart. He rarely put forth the effort. Yet he got the same degree as me. Weird.

[brianstl]

Willie's biggest problems weren't academic. You don't let a teammate take the fall for something you did.

[jimbofive]

Crews assembled this entire roster as if he had 20+ scholarships to work with. Duplication is seen all over this thing. There are enough 2/3 types to run a 5 on 5 practice. 4 big men that have the exact same (lack of) skill sets and/or are total projects. Jim Crews is like your crazy neighbor that hoards ###### in her garage. Except Crews garage is filled with 6-10 white guys that aren't good at basketball.

This is the best paragraph I've ever read here.

Period.

[majerus mojo]

Don't read my posts if you cannot understand them. Trust me, I don't read yours - but then again, that's because you have so little to offer the Board.

Responding seems like an odd way to demonstrate this

[BigMouthBilliken]

Responding seems like an odd way to demonstrate this

+1

[2010andBeyond]

Responding seems like an odd way to demonstrate this

Majerus mojo > clock_tower

[ACE]

Crews has given scholarships to five bigs and has had very little to show for it: Agbeko, Lancona, Gillman, Jolly and Neufeld. People have talked about WR, BC and RL... all of those guys were inconsistent as freshmen, but you could tell they all had ability.

[hsmith19]

No. No one has commented here recently about WR being an inconsistent player. Instead, I do believe that many have done, and are doing, much far worse: placing unfair expectations upon our younger players. If one of our better bigs over the past 25 years played inconsistently as a freshman and scored 6 or less points per game with less competition for minutes, then slack should be afforded to our current bigs. Frustration at the progress (or lack thereof) of the program, at the head coach, at recruiting, etc. should be be laid at the feet of 18 and 19 year olds.

I am more than pleased at the recruiting and play of last year's Frosh (last season) whom we should not have had to rely upon as freshmen.

Nobody is asking for another future Brooklyn Nets center, or blaming the current bigs personally for not being NBA material. The point is centers can and do contribute as freshmen, even at schools like SLU. Reed is only the most obvious example. If you can say you're pleased with this roster with a straight face, then I'm truly happy for you. But if you really can't understand at this point why others believe Crews could and should have been able to recruit more talent with a national ranking to point to than what he brought in, I don't think anything's going to convince you.