3star_recruit Posted January 14 Posted January 14 11 minutes ago, TheA_Bomb said: In 50 years what has SLU done in basketball? Any Sweet 16s? 1 NIT Runner up. 1 WBB NIT Championship. SLU Soccer had a National Championship 50 years ago, and what since? 2 Final Fours. A lot of mediocrity. Just like May, underachieving. Sad. How about just success? Has SLU been successful? See above. Long term success requires the ability to have some vision and the leadership ability to adapt the organization to best take advantage. The landscape has changed rapidly and continues to change. May is a step behind. So keep CJS. Fire May, find someone that has some vision, leadership, and communication skills. Maybe then we can achieve success, and possibly long term success. Your position on Chris May is well known. What I don't know is this: In your opinion, why has SLU been mediocre for over 50 years and who is responsible? Quote
TheA_Bomb Posted January 15 Posted January 15 1 hour ago, 3star_recruit said: Your position on Chris May is well known. What I don't know is this: In your opinion, why has SLU been mediocre for over 50 years and who is responsible? 50 years is a long time for it to be a who. Most likely multiple people. For instance, Billiken Roy lauded Chris May as the best AD besides Yow in 50 years. That timeline coincides with mostly decline of SLU athletics with very few highlights. So, being happy with the mediocre results is part of the problem. The reasons that I've pointed out are lack of leadership, vision, and complacency. Let's accept the premise that May is alright as an AD. But 13 years is still too long. There is natural complacency, and new blood is often necessary for an organization to evolve. I don't accept that premise, and there is so much complacency. SMS had a Sweet 16, and they had a Women's Final 4 that I know of. In 50 years, you'd think even a blind squirrel could find a nut. 50 years of mostly mediocrity. The changes right now are an opportunity to be seized; you can't seize it with someone who has shown no propensity for ingenuity. Quote
Pistol Posted January 15 Posted January 15 9 hours ago, billiken_roy said: I've said this before but it seems appropriate now, if Chris May is and has done such a horrible job and not performed as expected for so long, why has the Saint Louis University president and BoT continued to allow him to continue in his position? My guess is he is doing what was expected. With the exception of maybe Debbie Yow, I can't think of a better athletic director for Saint Louis University in my 50 years of following the Billikens. Thanks Chris May. Suddenly you trust the judgment of the people you criticize on here as much as A Bomb criticizes May. Quote
billiken_roy Posted January 15 Posted January 15 9 minutes ago, Pistol said: Suddenly you trust the judgment of the people you criticize on here as much as A Bomb criticizes May. No I asked if he is so bad why hasn't his bosses (president and BoT) did anything about it? My answer is that he has did what they wanted and they are satisfied we with the results. I.e. I fail to see May as the problem. Look to the BoT. (President is a short timer so he is off the hook) Quote
3star_recruit Posted January 15 Posted January 15 5 hours ago, TheA_Bomb said: 50 years is a long time for it to be a who. Most likely multiple people. For instance, Billiken Roy lauded Chris May as the best AD besides Yow in 50 years. That timeline coincides with mostly decline of SLU athletics with very few highlights. So, being happy with the mediocre results is part of the problem. The reasons that I've pointed out are lack of leadership, vision, and complacency. Let's accept the premise that May is alright as an AD. But 13 years is still too long. There is natural complacency, and new blood is often necessary for an organization to evolve. I don't accept that premise, and there is so much complacency. SMS had a Sweet 16, and they had a Women's Final 4 that I know of. In 50 years, you'd think even a blind squirrel could find a nut. 50 years of mostly mediocrity. The changes right now are an opportunity to be seized; you can't seize it with someone who has shown no propensity for ingenuity. Exactly, it's a cultural problem. These visionary leaders you speak of haven't materialized at SLU in 60 years because the culture won't allow it. It's the same culture that ensures the BoT will pick another AD that doesn't rock the boat after Chris May retires. Even with these restraints, I think we're in a good position to keep our basketball coach if he can replicate his previous successes. He spent a gazillion years at a D2 job much worse than this one. billiken_roy 1 Quote
TheA_Bomb Posted January 15 Posted January 15 9 hours ago, 3star_recruit said: Exactly, it's a cultural problem. These visionary leaders you speak of haven't materialized at SLU in 60 years because the culture won't allow it. It's the same culture that ensures the BoT will pick another AD that doesn't rock the boat after Chris May retires. Even with these restraints, I think we're in a good position to keep our basketball coach if he can replicate his previous successes. He spent a gazillion years at a D2 job much worse than this one. I agree with you on it being a cultural issue. Also I agree that the BoT is likely to pick ADs that don't rock the boat. That's why it's inherent on us the fans to demand it change. The AD is vanilla, the BoT is too conservative in a fast changing environment, that leaves us to seek change. Thanks for laying out my argument on why fans need to keep beating the drum on changing the athletic director As for long term success, CJS seems like an intelligent coach who has adapted with the times on the court. There's no guarantee if he does well that he won't leave for a better run athletic department. No doubt CJS knows that revenue sharing and NIL are important to sustaining success. So if we achieve success it's likely fleeting as the foundation to sustain it isn't there. Is the NIL where it needs to be? The initial strategy to focus on getting players to graduation was wrong. Is that still the strategy? Is the marketing of the AD up to the standards of teams with the success we want to emulate? Has the A10 adjusted to the NET and marketed itself well? I'm interested to hear from anyone that thinks those things are good or trending in the right direction and why. Those are all areas in the sphere of influence of the Athletic Director that impact long term success. PS: Anyone that gives a contract 3x the going rate for a fired coach and then extends said contract demonstrates such poor judgement and management that they should be fired. Irrespective of all other failings. Quote
Pistol Posted January 15 Posted January 15 Most people or organizations aren't all good or all bad. They're somewhere in the middle. May is no exception. He's made some great coaching hires, he's raised a lot of money, he got the Champions Center built, he brought field hockey on campus, he's gotten some other upgrades here and there, and he's finally brought in some decent merch options recently. He's also made some poor hires (especially those that mired the most important program in mediocrity for a decade), he's ignored the needs of certain programs in the department, he's overseen a department characterized by a lack of transparency, and he's overlooked the needs of regular fans while prioritizing the top donors. You guys mention culture at the university and I don't disagree that it could be better. There's also culture within the athletic department. To me, it seems a lot easier to change the culture at that level. Say what you will about the top levels of the University, but I don't see an institution standing in the way of what the AD wants to do. When Chris May was hired, SLU was relatively new to the A10 and it was the best place for us when CUSA (as we knew it) fell apart. Rick Majerus was the basketball coach. Chaifetz Arena was just about to open. If you asked yourself at the time, "Where would I want Saint Louis University athletics to be as we entered the year 2025?", would you be happy with the current state of things? Would you call these 17 years a success? A failure? A mixed bag? Have we moved forward enough? Probably worth taking a step back and considering instead of just picking a side and digging in. cgeldmacher, laker119, RiseOfTheBillikens and 1 other 4 Quote
OkieBilliken Posted January 15 Posted January 15 17 hours ago, TheA_Bomb said: 50 years is a long time for it to be a who. Most likely multiple people. For instance, Billiken Roy lauded Chris May as the best AD besides Yow in 50 years. That timeline coincides with mostly decline of SLU athletics with very few highlights. So, being happy with the mediocre results is part of the problem. The reasons that I've pointed out are lack of leadership, vision, and complacency. Let's accept the premise that May is alright as an AD. But 13 years is still too long. There is natural complacency, and new blood is often necessary for an organization to evolve. I don't accept that premise, and there is so much complacency. SMS had a Sweet 16, and they had a Women's Final 4 that I know of. In 50 years, you'd think even a blind squirrel could find a nut. 50 years of mostly mediocrity. The changes right now are an opportunity to be seized; you can't seize it with someone who has shown no propensity for ingenuity. SMS also had a College World Series birth but who’s counting… 30 minutes ago, Pistol said: Most people or organizations aren't all good or all bad. They're somewhere in the middle. May is no exception. He's made some great coaching hires, he's raised a lot of money, he got the Champions Center built, he brought field hockey on campus, he's gotten some other upgrades here and there, and he's finally brought in some decent merch options recently. He's also made some poor hires (especially those that mired the most important program in mediocrity for a decade), he's ignored the needs of certain programs in the department, he's overseen a department characterized by a lack of transparency, and he's overlooked the needs of regular fans while prioritizing the top donors. You guys mention culture at the university and I don't disagree that it could be better. There's also culture within the athletic department. To me, it seems a lot easier to change the culture at that level. Say what you will about the top levels of the University, but I don't see an institution standing in the way of what the AD wants to do. When Chris May was hired, SLU was relatively new to the A10 and it was the best place for us when CUSA (as we knew it) fell apart. Rick Majerus was the basketball coach. Chaifetz Arena was just about to open. If you asked yourself at the time, "Where would I want Saint Louis University athletics to be as we entered the year 2025?", would you be happy with the current state of things? Would you call these 17 years a success? A failure? A mixed bag? Have we moved forward enough? Probably worth taking a step back and considering instead of just picking a side and digging in. With SLU it’s always a mixed bag. We have some really good coaches that May should get credit for. The frustrating thing is that aggressive, creative marketing and community/alumni outreach could generate a lot more revenue and solve many of the overall issues. I get more contact from schools that I have bought a ticket for than my own of which I am a donor. I get a monthly email from the VCU volleyball coach because I saw SLU play there about 8 years ago. TheA_Bomb 1 Quote
billikenfan05 Posted January 15 Posted January 15 18 hours ago, Lord Elrond said: Won’t most newly hired Athletic Directors with any level of expertise expect to have a person of their choice in the high profile (Football and Men’s Basketball) jobs? Especially in a school that has no Football team, the MBB coach is the highest profile job there is. This is how we got Chris May, the MBB coach at the time (Rick Majerus) recommended a guy who had never been an AD before that he knew would let him and the MBB program alone. I’m confused by your premise? Are you saying May was a Majerus suggestion? Biondi/Levick/Chaifetz built the arena. Biondi went over Levick to fire Soderberg and hire Majerus. Biondi was right. Credit to Levick even though Biondi made the right call, she had a backbone and pride, so she resigned. Biondi went and hired a money man for his athletics ambitions. Whatever the hell they were. Biondi was forced out. So we have an autonomous May who was never meant to be autonomous. Quote
Lord Elrond Posted January 15 Posted January 15 1 minute ago, billikenfan05 said: I’m confused by your premise? Are you saying May was a Majerus suggestion? Biondi/Levick/Chaifetz built the arena. Biondi went over Levick to fire Soderberg and hire Majerus. Biondi was right. Credit to Levick even though Biondi made the right call, she had a backbone and pride, so she resigned. Biondi went and hired a money man for his athletics ambitions. Whatever the hell they were. Biondi was forced out. So we have an autonomous May who was never meant to be autonomous. My premise is that most Athletic Directors want their most important coaches to be their choices, not a holdover from someone else. It is these important hires by which they (the AD) will be judged, so they want people of their choosing in those positions, usually the Football and Men’s basketball programs. Quote
billikenfan05 Posted January 15 Posted January 15 11 minutes ago, OkieBilliken said: SMS also had a College World Series birth but who’s counting… With SLU it’s always a mixed bag. We have some really good coaches that May should get credit for. The frustrating thing is that aggressive, creative marketing and community/alumni outreach could generate a lot more revenue and solve many of the overall issues. I get more contact from schools that I have bought a ticket for than my own of which I am a donor. I get a monthly email from the VCU volleyball coach because I saw SLU play there about 8 years ago. Prior to Schertz, his best hires have been Men's and Women's Soccer. I don't think it's a coincidence that the primary donor is Jim Kavanaugh, a SLU Soccer alum still deeply rooted in the Soccer World, was a major part of the hiring. Women's soccer, I don't think it's a coincidence that Janet Oberle, a SLU women's soccer original was a part of hiring Katie Shields. Quote
ACE Posted January 15 Posted January 15 27 minutes ago, Pistol said: Most people or organizations aren't all good or all bad. They're somewhere in the middle. May is no exception. He's made some great coaching hires, he's raised a lot of money, he got the Champions Center built, he brought field hockey on campus, he's gotten some other upgrades here and there, and he's finally brought in some decent merch options recently. He's also made some poor hires (especially those that mired the most important program in mediocrity for a decade), he's ignored the needs of certain programs in the department, he's overseen a department characterized by a lack of transparency, and he's overlooked the needs of regular fans while prioritizing the top donors. You guys mention culture at the university and I don't disagree that it could be better. There's also culture within the athletic department. To me, it seems a lot easier to change the culture at that level. Say what you will about the top levels of the University, but I don't see an institution standing in the way of what the AD wants to do. When Chris May was hired, SLU was relatively new to the A10 and it was the best place for us when CUSA (as we knew it) fell apart. Rick Majerus was the basketball coach. Chaifetz Arena was just about to open. If you asked yourself at the time, "Where would I want Saint Louis University athletics to be as we entered the year 2025?", would you be happy with the current state of things? Would you call these 17 years a success? A failure? A mixed bag? Have we moved forward enough? Probably worth taking a step back and considering instead of just picking a side and digging in. This is a fair analysis... sometimes timing matters too and it seems it's always a little off for SLU. I point to two key years... 2005 - the Big East expands by adding DePaul and Marquette. At the time, the popularity of Spoonball had faded, we had Sodie as coach, while Marquette was coming off of Dwayne Wade and a Final Four. DePaul had the benefit of simply being located in Chicago, so SLU missed out. IF the Big East expands several years earlier, with Spoonball and Larry Hughes - we would have had a much more compelling case. 2013 - this is the big miss. The school made a commitment with the Arena and hiring of Majerus. Majerus had just passed away and the program was in the midst of a second of 3 consecutive NCAA appearances. It looked like we would have been well positioned for a Big East invite, but Butler had just come off of two appearances in the NCAA championship game and they became the flavor of the month. It was quite a meteoric rise from the Horizon, to just one year in the A-10 to the Big East. Their timing was perfect for a Big East invite. We'll never know, but without Brad Stevens coming along at just the right time, it would've been interesting to see who would have gotten that spot. I doubt it would have been Butler. cgeldmacher and billikenfan05 2 Quote
3star_recruit Posted January 15 Posted January 15 35 minutes ago, Pistol said: Most people or organizations aren't all good or all bad. They're somewhere in the middle. May is no exception. He's made some great coaching hires, he's raised a lot of money, he got the Champions Center built, he brought field hockey on campus, he's gotten some other upgrades here and there, and he's finally brought in some decent merch options recently. He's also made some poor hires (especially those that mired the most important program in mediocrity for a decade), he's ignored the needs of certain programs in the department, he's overseen a department characterized by a lack of transparency, and he's overlooked the needs of regular fans while prioritizing the top donors. You guys mention culture at the university and I don't disagree that it could be better. There's also culture within the athletic department. To me, it seems a lot easier to change the culture at that level. Say what you will about the top levels of the University, but I don't see an institution standing in the way of what the AD wants to do. When Chris May was hired, SLU was relatively new to the A10 and it was the best place for us when CUSA (as we knew it) fell apart. Rick Majerus was the basketball coach. Chaifetz Arena was just about to open. If you asked yourself at the time, "Where would I want Saint Louis University athletics to be as we entered the year 2025?", would you be happy with the current state of things? Would you call these 17 years a success? A failure? A mixed bag? Have we moved forward enough? Probably worth taking a step back and considering instead of just picking a side and digging in. The culture of the AD is a direct result of the culture of the people who hire those people. I don't see how you can separate the two. The best chance we have of a cultural transformation within the AD is a coach coming in, winning and deciding to stay 15+ years despite the cultural obstacles. That coach will attract like-minded people and you'll see some institutional changes. Over the last 60 years, no coach has managed to win enough and stay long enough for that to happen. Quote
TheA_Bomb Posted January 15 Posted January 15 40 minutes ago, OkieBilliken said: SMS also had a College World Series birth but who’s counting… With SLU it’s always a mixed bag. We have some really good coaches that May should get credit for. The frustrating thing is that aggressive, creative marketing and community/alumni outreach could generate a lot more revenue and solve many of the overall issues. I get more contact from schools that I have bought a ticket for than my own of which I am a donor. I get a monthly email from the VCU volleyball coach because I saw SLU play there about 8 years ago. Yeah that's how I feel too. It's baffling to me because it's the most basic, easiest/cheapest thing to do that every other product, service, industry does. I get emails from events at Madison Square Garden because I went to a game there 4 years ago. 1 email ever from the BVF, after donating. Never an email from SLU Athletic Department that I can remember and I attended past alumni events they sponsored. OkieBilliken 1 Quote
Pistol Posted January 15 Posted January 15 2 hours ago, 3star_recruit said: The culture of the AD is a direct result of the culture of the people who hire those people. I don't see how you can separate the two. The best chance we have of a cultural transformation within the AD is a coach coming in, winning and deciding to stay 15+ years despite the cultural obstacles. That coach will attract like-minded people and you'll see some institutional changes. Over the last 60 years, no coach has managed to win enough and stay long enough for that to happen. You can't separate them completely but large organizations absolutely have different subcultures within them. I see it at work everyday. The differences between individual teams that operate parallel to mine are massive in some cases, even though we report up the same chain within the same division of the same company. Athletic directors have a lot of autonomy. I worked within SLU's athletic department for four years. The culture within the department has way more to do with who's in the AD's chair than who's in the President's chair. I agree with your second paragraph. Quote
TheA_Bomb Posted January 15 Posted January 15 We can all hope CJS wins and winning changes the culture. But hope is not a method. I would employ Kotter's 8-Step Change Model. This is the method taught to Army senior leaders. https://www.kotterinc.com/methodology/8-steps/ Step 1: Create a Sense of Urgency That is easy with all the legal changes and conference realignment going on. Step 2: Build a Guiding Coalition Step 3: Form a Strategic Vision Step 4: Enlist a Volunteer Army Step 5: Enable Action by Removing Barriers Step 6: Generate Short Term Wins Step 7: Sustain Acceleration Step 8: Institute Change Easy right? The above requires someone who can form a vision, form the teams, see the way ahead, and institute the necessary changes. It's not the guy flat-footed at every change. It's not the guy paying 3x the market rate for a losing coach. 13 years is too long to accept mediocrity. RiseOfTheBillikens 1 Quote
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