OT: Simon Rec

[WUH]

On 8/10/2024 at 7:18 PM, Taj79 said:

Okay then .... I stand corrected.  Seems to me then that the quoted $54, 760, knocked down by $35,000, is quite a loss leader/misnomer then.  Soooooooo very glad I am through that stage of my life.  I'll likely be long gone before the grandkids make it to that stage.

$30,000-35,000. I would probably revise that to $25,000-30,000, but closer to $30K.  Regardless, just a guess.

[Spoon-Balls]

On 8/8/2024 at 11:50 AM, Box and Won said:

Expand it onto the parking lot next door...

On 8/8/2024 at 12:47 PM, billikenfan05 said:

Simon felt dated in 2013.

 

It would be nice if the Athletics Department can co-op the upgrades to the pool similar to Field Hockey facility. 

 

I always felt that parking lot was ripe for placement of an upgraded 40-50 meter pool/aquatics facility. If MICDS can remodel their pool and build a collegiate level aquatics facility, there's no reason SLU can't do the same (by the way, if anyone hasn't seen pictures of the MICDS aquatics facility, it is absolutely stunning after they redid the whole thing back in like 2016).  

The SLU swim/dive team (and student body in general) desperately need an upgrade on aquatics amenities. 

[Box and Won]

On 8/11/2024 at 10:43 PM, WUH said:

$30,000-35,000. I would probably revise that to $25,000-30,000, but closer to $30K.  Regardless, just a guess.

I'm at the age where the majority of my friends have kids in or nearing college, and the ones whose kids were accepted to SLU mostly received aid offers in the $30k-$35k range.  And these are higher-income families. So SLU is pretty generous, but even with that much financial aid, the cost is still pretty high.

I'll report back next year when my own kid applies. 

[Deutschkind]

On 8/9/2024 at 1:58 PM, Pistol said:

It got some upgrades a few years after I graduated - maybe late 00s is when they were completed? - mainly to build out the cardio area and move it all downstairs. That room is pretty nice, as I recall, but I haven't been in there in over a decade.

The pool was already inadequate for a D-I program and rec center facility when I showed up in fall 2001. The gym has always been fine - nothing special, but gets the job done. They might need some more racquetball courts and the weights area is dated.

I always thought Simon Rec was fine but maybe a little old, and then I saw more campus rec centers over time and realized it's on the small side for a school the size of SLU in addition to being a bit dated.

Other capital projects have been prioritized by SLU in recent years but I wonder if Simon might be back on the slate for another revamp.

 

Those upgrades happened just shortly before I started in 2009. The lower-level, former parking was really good. If nothing significant has changed since I graduated, though, it's definitely due for at least a facelift or expansion

[Deutschkind]

Double post

[Old guy]

When I went to college 1963 - 1967 a full semester, with room, board and books was about $1000. Med School tuition at Georgetown was $2000 per year when I was a student there 1967 - 1971. I ended college and Med School with an $8000 (plus a few extra hundreds) in debt. This was a total steal in current terms but everything cost less and salaries were a lot lower at that time. My first salary as an intern at the Georgetown University Hospital was $8000 per year and they would launder white coats for free. Food and rent were much cheaper, and I was paying below $30 for a full moth of gasoline for the car. Note that I was driving all over DC because I had rotations in different hospitals. What we are seeing with the differences in price means that the dollar has lost a huge amount of purchase value since I ended Med School in 1971, and there is no evidence indicating that the dollar's value will increase in the foreseeable future. Prices have increased because the dollar has lost a lot of purchase value.

To give you an example, my first new car, which I bought during my 1971 - 1972 internship was a VW beetle with such advantages as a fuel gage and a blower for the heater. If I remember correctly I paid $1,800 for it. I loved that car. The absolutely cheapest 2024 car for sale in the US is the Nissan Versa with a base price of just $15,980 (MSRP). At the time I graduated from med school the cost of the cheapest 2024 car would have covered the full 4 year tuition, room and board. Nowadays kids graduate from med school with over $250,000.00 loan debt. Give it another 20 years or so and you will see a much higher average debt at the time of graduation from Med school.  

So, when you finally retire and depend on savings, pensions, asset gains, and social security payments, remember that the factor that will affect you the most is not what you spend but the rate of inflation. Remember, inflation is just another way to talk about the loss of purchase value of the dollar.

[Deutschkind]

OG, inflation is only a small part of college tuition increases. Tuition has far outstretched general inflation. Your $8,000 of debt for a private med school in 1971 became $263,000 of debt for me graduating from SLU Med in 2017.  Average inflation would only put your debt at $62,000 in today's dollars. 

Compare that to your car for $1,800, which is about $14,000 right now. which is very comparable to the Nissan Versa. 

I know the purpose of this thread should be discussing the rec center, but student debt is currently a very frustrating personal concern given my loans are being used as a political football and my progress is currently held up in federal court

[Old guy]

3 hours ago, Deutschkind said:

OG, inflation is only a small part of college tuition increases. Tuition has far outstretched general inflation. Your $8,000 of debt for a private med school in 1971 became $263,000 of debt for me graduating from SLU Med in 2017.  Average inflation would only put your debt at $62,000 in today's dollars. 

Compare that to your car for $1,800, which is about $14,000 right now. which is very comparable to the Nissan Versa. 

I know the purpose of this thread should be discussing the rec center, but student debt is currently a very frustrating personal concern given my loans are being used as a political football and my progress is currently held up in federal court

I am very aware that there is are a lot of issues other than inflation that affect lots of people. Inflation affects everybody, everything else boosting prices affects some people more than others, and anything at all in this day and age can become a political football at any time. The government money will or will not be used to pay your debt after hundreds of photo / video op events with different politicians beating their chest vowing to help their constituents in whatever way they say will be best for all. Until this series of photo / video op  events of all  kinds of politicians is done and over, and until the decision is made to pay or not to pay your student debt, the debt is most certainly your own personal debt that you have to pay.

However, paying student debt is not a major issue any way you look at it, unless you are a student or ex student with unpaid debt. The most terrible problem that is currently affecting lots of people is losing their jobs. John Deere just fired lots of people and transferred manufacturing to Mexico, Stellantis will eliminate the Chrysler Headquarters, the workers will be terminated in October. You may not feel the pain of the people affected, but a lot of people are jumping from a middle class level into a vacuum. And if you look at it from a political point of view this is an issue that does provide ample material to become another major political football with politicians of all kinds having their photo / video ops where they claim to be the great defenders of their supporters. 

Do you honestly think that the pool at the rec center is a major concern for anyone? It may indeed be an issue given the fact that SLU is charging too much in tuition and then giving money to students. Where does the money come from? Donors do not have money trees in their backyards and sooner or later their seemingly eternal sources of income may well become less bountiful. If and when this happens, and it may well happen, where does their money go to? The answer is simple, the donor's money goes where the Donor wants it to go. What donor wants to give money for a pool, do you know?

What really concerns me most of all is the talk of war going on in the media. I hope and pray a real war does not happen. If it does they will draft lots of doctors. During my induction physical, during my internship, early 1972, I saw the Sargeant in charge of doing chest XRAYs stamping my papers with a Normal X Ray stamp. I asked him how can you do that?, the film has not been processed yet. The Sargeant answered: Doc, if you can breathe and you can walk, you are in.. Keep this in mind for your induction physical, if and when it comes. Again, I pray it does not happen.

 

 

[WUH]

2 hours ago, Deutschkind said:

OG, inflation is only a small part of college tuition increases. Tuition has far outstretched general inflation. Your $8,000 of debt for a private med school in 1971 became $263,000 of debt for me graduating from SLU Med in 2017.  Average inflation would only put your debt at $62,000 in today's dollars. 

Compare that to your car for $1,800, which is about $14,000 right now. which is very comparable to the Nissan Versa. 

I know the purpose of this thread should be discussing the rec center, but student debt is currently a very frustrating personal concern given my loans are being used as a political football and my progress is currently held up in federal court

Do you believe your debt should be forgiven and if yes, why?

[thetorch]

Those who want their college debt paid should have spent some of that college money on an intro to economics course. 

[willie]

1 hour ago, thetorch said:

Those who want their college debt paid should have spent some of that college money on an intro to economics course. 

No. Political Science 

[FromDaEastSide]

On 8/13/2024 at 8:28 AM, Box and Won said:

I'm at the age where the majority of my friends have kids in or nearing college, and the ones whose kids were accepted to SLU mostly received aid offers in the $30k-$35k range.  And these are higher-income families. So SLU is pretty generous, but even with that much financial aid, the cost is still pretty high.

I'll report back next year when my own kid applies. 

My daughter is an incoming freshman at SLU and can confirm that SLU is generous in their financial aid package and was the deciding difference in her choice. 

[TheChosenOne]

48 minutes ago, FromDaEastSide said:

My daughter is an incoming freshman at SLU and can confirm that SLU is generous in their financial aid package and was the deciding difference in her choice. 

Congratulations! Hope she has a great experience at SLU!

[Billiken Rich]

1 hour ago, willie said:

No. Political Science 

With all due respect to @SluSignGuy political science is an oxymoron..........

[thetorch]

I'm not smart so this is most likely a very dumb question.

If SLU's tuition is let's say 70k.  Yet they offer aid to almost every person at 25-35k.  Why don't they just skip all the aid and lower all the costs?

[Old guy]

2 hours ago, thetorch said:

I'm not smart so this is most likely a very dumb question.

If SLU's tuition is let's say 70k.  Yet they offer aid to almost every person at 25-35k.  Why don't they just skip all the aid and lower all the costs?

That is a very good question.

[SLU_Lax]

4 hours ago, thetorch said:

I'm not smart so this is most likely a very dumb question.

If SLU's tuition is let's say 70k.  Yet they offer aid to almost every person at 25-35k.  Why don't they just skip all the aid and lower all the costs?

Some pay full freight. International students being the biggest group that pay the sticker price. 
 

I don’t know the numbers, but I believe you balance the lost students who don’t even apply because the advertised price is so high against the additional income those that will in fact pay full price gets you.

I imagine there is also some marketing that people feel better paying “only” $40k because of a massive scholarship versus not getting any scholarship and paying $40k (if that became the lower advertised price with less aid available). 

[Wendelprof]

Private higher education is a unique "business."  First, it has to compete against public education.  I don't live in Missouri, so I have no idea what Mizzou's tuition is, but let's assume it is $10,000/yr.  If SLU's tuition is $40,000/yr, that's a $30,000 difference.  Some students don't really need any help making up that difference, so you can charge them full tuition and it won't make a lot of difference in their decision-making process.  Some students, however, won't have the resources to pay full tuition but they are the type of student the university would really like to have as a student.  The university then has to try to reduce the difference between the student's "other" options.  Maybe SLU can't give the student a full $30,000 scholarship (the whole difference), but if the student lives in St. Louis, by attending SLU the student could live at home and not have to pay for housing in Columbia.  So maybe SLU offers the student a scholarship of $20,000.  Yes, that's still $10,000 more than Mizzou, but the student could stay in St Louis (a better place to live in many peoples' minds) and not have to pay for housing.  So one way schools use scholarships is to try to make the school more competitive with a prospective student's other options.  Schools also want "good" students.  Good students both academically and personally.  Schools often will throw in a little extra scholarship money to try to get the type of student the school wants on campus and wants as an alum.  How a school spends its scholarship budget is a complicated process.  Those are just a few of the factors that I assume most schools take into account when allocating their limited scholarship dollars.

Congratulations to FromDaEastSide and his daughter.  Sounds like they are excited she is attending SLU - and that SLU is excited to have her as a student and future alum.  Two of my kids attended SLU.  They got a great education while they were there, they took advantage of all that SLU had to offer, and follow the school as loyal alums now.  I hope your daughter has a similar experience.

[WUH]

11 hours ago, thetorch said:

I'm not smart so this is most likely a very dumb question. If SLU's tuition is let's say 70k.  Yet they offer aid to almost every person at 25-35k.  Why don't they just skip all the aid and lower all the costs?

Higher education is a Veblen good.

Cost signals quality.

[WUH]

6 hours ago, SLU_Lax said:

International students being the biggest group that pay the sticker price.

No one pays the sticker price anymore except for those in the Top 25-50.

[Old guy]

What I see here are a lot of generalizations about sticker prices and who pays for what regarding a child's college education. I think every single family sending a kid to college somewhere has to make a decision about payments and sticker prices. Once more, money does not grow in trees, and the loss of purchase value affecting the dollar is significant. Students may decide to take debt to pay whatever the family is not willing or capable of paying for. However that means these students will reach graduation date with a  high level of debt. Generalities are not accurate to describe individual / family conditions and ability to pay, and the students do not realize the burden that a high level of educational debt will be after graduation. Each separate family has unique factors that have to be taken inlto account reaching a decision about how much financing will be provided for each one of  their children's eudcation.

By the way, when the student has divorced parents, which is not a rare situation, the discussion as to who pays for what among biological parents gets a lot more complex. Sometimes (my case with my ex) you have one parent that does not follow his/her agreed obligations to provide funding to to help finance the education of a child.

Financing a child's college education is a lot more complex for at least some families than can be described in generalizations. This is particularly applicable to the education of a child with divorced parents.

[SluSignGuy]

@Wendelprof gets at one of the main reasons that the sticker price of school is so high.  There are some students who do not need financial aid and will pay the full price, so the higher sticker price then brings in more revenue from those students.  This is why they do not just "cut" the sticker price.  They can give the vast majority of students a lower price through financial aid. 

This has direct and indirect effects on consumption/students attending.  The direct effect is the student is paying less.  The indirect effect is that a student thinks the university is giving them more.  For example, Widget A's Sticker Price is $10000, and Widget B's Sticker Price is $5000.  However, if I give a $5000 coupon for Widget A, the customer thinks they are getting a better value since they are getting a $10,000 Widget for the same price as the $5,000 Widget.  Even though the real price is the same.

To the best of my knowledge, SLU does not have a "minimum scholarship."  The industry term is "discount rate." I do not know if I am allowed to share what this is, but the average amount that an SLU student pays is considerably, considerably, CONSIDERABLY, lower than the sticker price. 

There are many, many, reasons for the rises in tuition. The Simon Rec centers of the world are part of it, but probably overall a smaller part.  

 

[WUH]

2 hours ago, SluSignGuy said:

@Wendelprof gets at one of the main reasons that the sticker price of school is so high.  There are some students who do not need financial aid and will pay the full price, so the higher sticker price then brings in more revenue from those students.  This is why they do not just "cut" the sticker price.  They can give the vast majority of students a lower price through financial aid. 

This has direct and indirect effects on consumption/students attending.  The direct effect is the student is paying less.  The indirect effect is that a student thinks the university is giving them more.  For example, Widget A's Sticker Price is $10000, and Widget B's Sticker Price is $5000.  However, if I give a $5000 coupon for Widget A, the customer thinks they are getting a better value since they are getting a $10,000 Widget for the same price as the $5,000 Widget.  Even though the real price is the same.

To the best of my knowledge, SLU does not have a "minimum scholarship."  The industry term is "discount rate." I do not know if I am allowed to share what this is, but the average amount that an SLU student pays is considerably, considerably, CONSIDERABLY, lower than the sticker price. 

There are many, many, reasons for the rises in tuition. The Simon Rec centers of the world are part of it, but probably overall a smaller part.  

 

-Nevermind, just assume the professor knows more.

Edited August 15, 2024 by WUH

[Old guy]

3 hours ago, SluSignGuy said:

@Wendelprof gets at one of the main reasons that the sticker price of school is so high.  There are some students who do not need financial aid and will pay the full price, so the higher sticker price then brings in more revenue from those students.  This is why they do not just "cut" the sticker price.  They can give the vast majority of students a lower price through financial aid. 

This has direct and indirect effects on consumption/students attending.  The direct effect is the student is paying less.  The indirect effect is that a student thinks the university is giving them more.  For example, Widget A's Sticker Price is $10000, and Widget B's Sticker Price is $5000.  However, if I give a $5000 coupon for Widget A, the customer thinks they are getting a better value since they are getting a $10,000 Widget for the same price as the $5,000 Widget.  Even though the real price is the same.

To the best of my knowledge, SLU does not have a "minimum scholarship."  The industry term is "discount rate." I do not know if I am allowed to share what this is, but the average amount that an SLU student pays is considerably, considerably, CONSIDERABLY, lower than the sticker price. 

There are many, many, reasons for the rises in tuition. The Simon Rec centers of the world are part of it, but probably overall a smaller part.  

 

The money to pay for all these outflows has to come from somewhere. Is it possible that excess tuition money coming primarily from those paying the full amount is redistributed to those determined to be unable to pay the full amount? Something that could be viewed as an institutionalized Robin Hood redistribution system? I have never heard anything like it, not that it cannot be done. Wow!

[cgeldmacher]

I firmly believe that most of the costs that have been driving up tuition for the past forty years are unrelated to the actual education that students get.  I bet if you run a comparison of what professors were paid forty years ago up to now, you will see that this figure has probably kept up with inflation despite the fact that tuition costs have far outpaced inflation.  The issue is that kids, and their parents (I include myself), decide on a university for reasons that have little to do with how well they are going to be educated.  They need to see beautiful green spaces, flowers, gorgeous buildings, statues, lakes.  They want to know that they will live in modern, state of the art dorms.  They want expensive recreations centers (see the topic of this thread).  They want to know that they will eat meals in something that resembles the food court at a mall.  They big auditoriums that allow for entertainment to come to them.  None of this has anything to do with their education, but these are the factors driving kids toward certain schools versus others.