Free throws

[slu72]

2 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

You can see the differences in approaches with both Goodwin and French.  Goodwin takes the ball, lines it up, puts one foot on the line, moves the other up then takes the shot.  What did Highmark call it ... stepping into the shot.  French on the other hand accept the ball from the ref like it is a pass and just goes up for the shot.  Just as if it came from a teammate.  I think the thought there is to eliminate the thought process and let talent take over.  It takes the thinking out of thre equation but that hasn't seemed to work either.  So we have the French we always knew we had.  I'd go offense for defense late in games ..... unfortunately, the guy is a liability at the free throw line and you can't have that late in games.

As I said earlier, even if you avoided getting him the ball the opposing team would take off the ball fouls just to get him to the line in a late game close situation. He becomes a liability in those situations. 

[dlarry]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/college-basketball/2017/2/12/14589876/canyon-barry-florida-underhand-free-throw-shooting-record
 

It won’t ever happen but Canyon Berry shot underhand a few years back.

He hit them at a 90 percent clip.

[Taj79]

Agree ... that's why I concluded and advocated the offensive/defensive switch.  If you find him out there you keep the ball away from him.  Hopefully, the refs can see what a blatant foul is and award two shots and the ball.  If it's an inbound play, have French inbound the ball.  Kind of tough to foul the guy inbounding the ball.

[dlarry]

2 minutes ago, slu72 said:

As I said earlier, even if you avoided getting him the ball the opposing team would take off the ball fouls just to get him to the line in a late game close situation. He becomes a liability in those situations. 

I think if you are intentionally fouling a guy without the ball they will begin to call them intentional fouls.

Thats why at the end of games teams always foul the guy with the ball and not the worst free throw shooter.

[cheeseman]

41 minutes ago, Taj79 said:

You can see the differences in approaches with both Goodwin and French.  Goodwin takes the ball, lines it up, puts one foot on the line, moves the other up then takes the shot.  What did Highmark call it ... stepping into the shot.  French on the other hand accept the ball from the ref like it is a pass and just goes up for the shot.  Just as if it came from a teammate.  I think the thought there is to eliminate the thought process and let talent take over.  It takes the thinking out of thre equation but that hasn't seemed to work either.  So we have the French we always knew we had.  I'd go offense for defense late in games ..... unfortunately, the guy is a liability at the free throw line and you can't have that late in games.

Truth is that he is a liability any time during the game if they opposition takes the approach of "just foul him"  he will cost them less points that way.  Assume he takes 10-12 bunnies each game and he makes 50% of them - that will be 10-12 points - if he shoots 60% then you are looking 12-14 points.  If you foul him each time the best he can hurt you is he might put in a couple but he will miss the free throw.  So you foul him and hits 30% of the FTs which honestly the way he is shooting is optimistic he will only score 8 or so points - you are ahead of the game with him and in all probability he will score less.

[slusam]

2 minutes ago, cheeseman said:

Truth is that he is a liability any time during the game if they opposition takes the approach of "just foul him"  he will cost them less points that way.  Assume he takes 10-12 bunnies each game and he makes 50% of them - that will be 10-12 points - if he shoots 60% then you are looking 12-14 points.  If you foul him each time the best he can hurt you is he might put in a couple but he will miss the free throw.  So you foul him and hits 30% of the FTs which honestly the way he is shooting is optimistic he will only score 8 or so points - you are ahead of the game with him and in all probability he will score less.

Except that it puts us in the bonus and double bonus much faster and puts the opposing teams big men in foul trouble.

[cheeseman]

Just now, slusam said:

Except that it puts us in the bonus and double bonus much faster and puts the opposing teams big men in foul trouble.

Good point - I had thought of that but only stayed focused on French and his situation but there is that benefit.

[brianstl]

It isn’t a teaching thing or a form thing at this point.  Shooting as bad as French does from the line is mental.  At this point even granny style won’t help much until he gets past the metal block.

[slufanskip]

44 minutes ago, brianstl said:

It isn’t a teaching thing or a form thing at this point.  Shooting as bad as French does from the line is mental.  At this point even granny style won’t help much until he gets past the metal block.

I believe the mental aspect plays a part. However, just look at him shoot, there is no way you'll convince me he can't be taught to shoot them better. His form is atrocious and I can't believe he can't be taught to repeat simple mechanics. I know he has a pretty damn good f/t shooter teaching him, but sometimes a player just needs to get outside that circle and listen to a different voice or idea. 

[dlarry]

13 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

I believe the mental aspect plays a part. However, just look at him shoot, there is no way you'll convince me he can't be taught to shoot them better. His form is atrocious and I can't believe he can't be taught to repeat simple mechanics. I know he has a pretty damn good f/t shooter teaching him, but sometimes a player just needs to get outside that circle and listen to a different voice or idea. 

The KC game it seemed like the ref would pass him the ball and he would fire it up as soon as possible.

Im sure that is by design but there is a difference between not thinking about it and not concentrating on the task at hand.

[thetorch]

2 hours ago, dlarry said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/college-basketball/2017/2/12/14589876/canyon-barry-florida-underhand-free-throw-shooting-record
 

It won’t ever happen but Canyon Berry shot underhand a few years back.

He hit them at a 90 percent clip.

Son of Rick Barry. Only reason he shot them like that.

[RUBillsFan]

1 hour ago, brianstl said:

It isn’t a teaching thing or a form thing at this point.  Shooting as bad as French does from the line is mental.  At this point even granny style won’t help much until he gets past the metal block.

I think there are 2 advantages to the granny shot for a guy like French:

1. It can potentially be easier to repeat his motion

2. It is so drastically different from anything else he’s done and anything else in the game itself in terms of shooting form that perhaps it wouldn’t have the same mental block.

I suspect that French hasn’t tried it in a game because either:

1. He’s tried it in practice / privately and doesn’t think he can shoot better granny style

or

2. A combination of ego and / or wanting to improve the normal shot for the future.  French needs to be able to hit hit shots consistently that aren’t right near the hoop to have any hopes of playing in the NBA.  Shooting FTs granny style isn’t going to help him with that.

[dlarry]

6 minutes ago, thetorch said:

Son of Rick Barry. Only reason he shot them like that.

Rick Barry’s other kids didn’t shoot them like that. 
You are right, that is why he started shooting them like that but he continued doing it because he hit them at a 90 percent clip.

[slu72]

26 minutes ago, slufanskip said:

I believe the mental aspect plays a part. However, just look at him shoot, there is no way you'll convince me he can't be taught to shoot them better. His form is atrocious and I can't believe he can't be taught to repeat simple mechanics. I know he has a pretty damn good f/t shooter teaching him, but sometimes a player just needs to get outside that circle and listen to a different voice or idea. 

If you get a chance watch him in warmups. He shoots it with a cocked arm and flick of the wrists and makes more than he misses. Billiken bill and I watched him at Davidson last year and both agreed he looked good from the line... in warmups. But in the game he shoots with a pushing motion with just his arms, and it results in a god awful ugly clanker. That shouts mental to me. 

[courtside]

I'd have to dig up some video. But, Theo John may be a good example of a 50% ish FT shooter that changed his form later in his college career, and is now a 70% plus FT shooter, and improving still. And, many of his misses are now near makes. 

He now has a consistent routine and form every time. It took him years to have that. Many of his previous misses were long, back iron. He has more of a rainbow arc now among other things. He'd be a current come to mind, top of head example out there.

It can be done. There is no reason why French can't be a decent FT shooter in games.

[bauman]

28 minutes ago, courtside said:

I'd have to dig up some video. But, Theo John may be a good example of a 50% ish FT shooter that changed his form later in his college career, and is now a 70% plus FT shooter, and improving still. And, many of his misses are now near makes. 

He now has a consistent routine and form every time. It took him years to have that. Many of his previous misses were long, back iron. He has more of a rainbow arc now among other things. He'd be a current come to mind, top of head example out there.

It can be done. There is no reason why French can't be a decent FT shooter in games.

Guys, the train has left the station with regard to HF being a "decent FT shooter in games."  We are now a 1/4 of the way through his SR season and things are only worse than his early years.  I know many of us think we have a solution to fix his problem, but if the coaching staff can't do it, neither can we.  Our best team answer is to work around it by making sure he is not on the floor at critical times late in close games.  That is a sad realization for me when thinking about a top 25 player in SLU history.  He is so good in all other aspects of the game, but can only hurt us at the FT line at the end of close games, unless subbed  for in an OFF/DEF rotation

[White Pelican]

5 hours ago, courtside said:

I'd have to dig up some video. But, Theo John may be a good example of a 50% ish FT shooter that changed his form later in his college career, and is now a 70% plus FT shooter, and improving still. And, many of his misses are now near makes. 

He now has a consistent routine and form every time. It took him years to have that. Many of his previous misses were long, back iron. He has more of a rainbow arc now among other things. He'd be a current come to mind, top of head example out there.

It can be done. There is no reason why French can't be a decent FT shooter in games.

What Bauman said. I feel like I'm in a time machine. We've beat this horse to death for four effin years. If they ain't fixed him by now, he can't be fixed. Plan around the problem and move on.

[Old guy]

I keep on thinking that French's NBA attempt last summer did not go well and that he is trying hard to show to anyone seeing him how good he is. He is good, no doubt about it, but his FT shooting stinks. Perhaps, if he tried to be less uptight about doing well and going to the NBA, he would be able to improve his FT shooting. Just a thought. When you try and try and try really hard to do better at something with negative results, perhaps the answer is to relax a bit and let the chips fall where they may.