GDT: Duquesne, Act II

[DoctorB]

6 hours ago, White Pelican said:

We do not match up well against Duquesne and I think they are a better team than the consensus on here has been giving them credit for. I think they've proved they're better than us.

This team does not have enough people that can shoot a basketball.

All word.  In case anyone has not figured this out by now (based on some shady analysis in this thread):  let me spell it out in all caps.  Duquesne has a really nice team, with multiple options and outstanding defense, and is simply better than us right now.  They can beat Dayton and may win the A10 tournament.  Just clarifying for the hard of hearing... but they throttled us and never let up in 2nd half; 40 or more points in each half is simply out of our reach.

Still very proud of this team and still think they are better in Feb. than I would've expected in Oct.  Season still not over...

[Bay Area Billiken]

For those that claim blaming the refs is bad sportsmanship, sour grapes, etc., the play by play summary says otherwise, and confirms the eye test watching the game.

1.  In the first half Hasahn French was whistled for 1 phantom offensive foul in open court on an Academy Award level acting job by a Duquesne player. That was one of French's 2 first half fouls.  French was whistled for his 2nd foul at 10:59 with the score 15-14 Duquesne.  French returned at 3:55, having spent 7:04 on the bench, with the score 31-24 Duquesne.  While French was confined to the bench in "foul trouble," Duquesne outscored SLU 16-10.

2.  In the second half Javonte Perkins was whistled for his 3rd and 4th fouls at 16:55 and 15:05, had to be removed from the game at 15:05 with the score 50-48 Duquesne.  At least one of those fouls, as I recall, was an A10 zebra special touch foul.  Perkins returned to the game at 8:40, having been confined to the bench for 6:25, with the score 64-54 Duquesne.

Thus, while French and Perkins were confined to the bench in foul trouble, Duquesne outscored SLU  by 14 points, 30-16.  Final Score:  Duquesne 82 SLU 68, a 14 point deficit.

Res Ipsa Loquitur.

Ballgame.

There are very valid reasons Coach Ford was livid with the officiating during the game, and that Dr. Chaifetz tweeted his objections to the officiating.  Dan McLaughlin and Scott Highmark on last night's Fox Sports Midwest telecast commented re the officiating, and one of them noted that SLU has contacted the A10 Commissioner re the officiating.

Admittedly the SLU team did not play well last night, was off, and frankly was outplayed.  But it cannot be reasonably disputed that SLU was playing 5 on 8.  That didn't help either.

SLU has never gotten a fair shake from the zebras in this de facto East Coast bus league.  But SLU has no better and available place to go.  So we are stuck, and it can be frustrating.

[glazedandconfused]

15 minutes ago, DoctorB said:

All word.  In case anyone has not figured this out by now (based on some shady analysis in this thread):  let me spell it out in all caps.  Duquesne has a really nice team, with multiple options and outstanding defense, and is simply better than us right now.  They can beat Dayton and may win the A10 tournament.  Just clarifying for the hard of hearing... but they throttled us and never let up in 2nd half; 40 or more points in each half is simply out of our reach.

Still very proud of this team and still think they are better in Feb. than I would've expected in Oct.  Season still not over...

They are still only the 5th best team in the A10. There’s no proof they are really good except for the 2 games they played us. They’ve just beaten up on the bad teams on their schedule.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Add:  Due to the losses of Jimerson and Thatch, the SLU bench is short and the options are few.  SLU cannot afford to have Hasahn French and Javonte Perkins, two of its best players, confined to the bench in foul trouble for 13:29 combined.

Some blame the defense.  How can SLU play that tough defense when it is constantly called for A10 special touch fouls?

Add then there's Weathers' over the back mugging of Yuri Collins, no blood, no call.  

What gives?

[billikenfan05]

7 minutes ago, glazedandconfused said:

They are still only the 5th best team in the A10. There’s no proof they are really good except for the 2 games they played us. They’ve just beaten up on the bad teams on their schedule.

They also just shoot the ball really well. I mean none of their threes came off any thing special. They stepped into threes off the dribble and drained them with a  hand in their face. 

[glazedandconfused]

3 minutes ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

Add:  Due to the losses of Jimerson and Thatch, the SLU bench is short and the options are few.  SLU cannot afford to have Hasahn French and Javonte Perkins, two of its best players, confined to the bench in foul trouble for 13:29 combined.

Some blame the defense.  How can SLU play that tough defense when it is constantly called for A10 special touch fouls?

Add then there's Weathers' over the back mugging of Yuri Collins, no blood, no call.  

What gives?

There were a couple of questionable whistles but this team has had a fouling problem all year. We aren’t particularly good at playing strong defense without fouling. That’s a skill that no one on this team has.

[Bay Area Billiken]

1 minute ago, glazedandconfused said:

There were a couple of questionable whistles but this team has had a fouling problem all year. We aren’t particularly good at playing strong defense without fouling. That’s a skill that no one on this team has.

So the remedy, IMO, is we can't demand that traditional tough SLU defense if it comes at the expense of SLU's best players being confined to the bench in foul trouble.

This is basketball wherein you have to make baskets, score points, to win.  You can't let the defense wag the basketball (scoring) dog.

I take the A10 refs as a given.  That doesn't mean I accept them.  But perhaps SLU needs to game plan for the officials too.  Expect the touch fouls to be called.  Plan accordingly.

[glazedandconfused]

1 minute ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

So the remedy, IMO, is we can't demand that traditional tough SLU defense if it comes at the expense of SLU's best players being confined to the bench in foul trouble.

This is basketball wherein you have to make baskets, score points, to win.  You can't let the defense wag the basketball (scoring) dog.

I take the A10 refs as a given.  That doesn't mean I accept them.  But perhaps SLU needs to game plan for the officials too.  Expect the touch fouls to be called.  Plan accordingly.

Agreed, but i think it’s important to note that it’s not just touch fouls that are our problem. We often do commit dumb fouls (especially early in the game)

[Bay Area Billiken]

When Perkins was assessed his 4th foul at 15:05, I made a mental note that we were doomed.

We were.

[glazedandconfused]

That being said, still a largely successful season in my opinion. A lot more to be happy about than mad about so far. Goodwin has improved. Freshmen are getting major minutes. Perkins is the real deal. Yuri is legit (though still sloppy with the ball). Good time to be a billiken fan.

[DoctorB]

18 minutes ago, glazedandconfused said:

They are still only the 5th best team in the A10. There’s no proof they are really good except for the 2 games they played us.

Well, I guess we'll see.  The proof was the eye test last night: & here's how they look -- a very physical team, with shooters.  Hammering us, on the road, is some sort of proof, right?  Personally I doubt they are 5th in the league, but time will tell.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Just now, glazedandconfused said:

That being said, still a largely successful season in my opinion. A lot more to be happy about than mad about so far. Goodwin has improved. Freshmen are getting major minutes. Perkins is the real deal. Yuri is legit (though still sloppy with the ball). Good time to be a billiken fan.

Agreed.  SLU is quite a bit ahead in terms of Wins and Losses than I expected SLU to be. This being said, I expected SLU to split with Duquesne, not get swept.

   

[glazedandconfused]

2 minutes ago, DoctorB said:

Well, I guess we'll see.  The proof was the eye test last night: & here's how they look -- a very physical team, with shooters.  Hammering us, on the road, is some sort of proof, right?  Personally I doubt they are 5th in the league, but time will tell.

I mean they’ve only hammered us. No other decent team. I think that says more about us than it does Duquesne.

Clearly they aren’t better than UD, URI and VCU. I don’t think they are better than Richmond either. (I know we beat Richmond, but Richmond also won @ Rhode Island)

[RiseAndGrind]

1 minute ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

Agreed.  SLU is quite a bit ahead in terms of Wins and Losses than I expected SLU to be. This being said, I expected SLU to split with Duquesne, not get swept.

   

Agreed. It's a weird feeling for me this year. I absolutely love this team and they are ahead of my expectations (for this year). However, they play horrible/dumb basketball sometimes and the coaching been very very questionable at times. If I remember that I initially had this year as "a growing year" I am very happy with how things are going generally. But I have my slip ups because they show flashes of "what could be." 

[Bay Area Billiken]

1 minute ago, RiseAndGrind said:

Agreed. It's a weird feeling for me this year. I absolutely love this team and they are ahead of my expectations (for this year). However, they play horrible/dumb basketball sometimes and the coaching been very very questionable at times. If I remember that I initially had this year as "a growing year" I am very happy with how things are going generally. But I have my slip ups because they show flashes of "what could be." 

Yes, I get greedy.  We see SLU going toe to toe with nationally ranked Dayton, having Dayton on the ropes.

With Jimerson and Thatch, SLU could have been really good, this year.  But this is SLU.  Something seems to always happen.

[cheeseman]

I had posted this earlier in another post - our foul trouble stuff really became an issue with Conference play.  This so called "bully ball" that some were so excited about does not equate in our Conference.  We do fine against other conferences that have big strong players because the refs allow for more contact.  In our guard centered conference it just doesn't work the same way.  Touch fouls never make much sense to me - seldom can the refs be consistent with them.  Something I have noticed this year is that the refs are more liberal with guards using their arm to push off the defender.  These are fouls and for some reason our refs seem to have a blind eye to them.  Now I am not going to blame the refs for our poor play last night but I do acknowledge that it is a factor in some way.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Given the A10 refs, the way the A10 refs call these games, the touch fouls, add the Oakland (now Las Vegas) Raiders like targets on the SLU players' chests, I really think SLU needs to loosen up on the defense, rather that tighten it any further.  You have to recognize the players you have to play, their strengths and weaknesses.  With a short bench, you just can't afford to have 2 of your best players, Hasahn French and Javonte Perkins, your best rebounder and your best scorer, respectively, confined to the bench in foul trouble for 13:29 of the game combined.

[wgstl]

As I said the other day this team is becoming an exact replica of last year’s. Strong out of conference play, rough mid conference stretch, short bench, no deep threat.  Good news, look at how last season ended?

[glazedandconfused]

10 minutes ago, wgstl said:

As I said the other day this team is becoming an exact replica of last year’s. Strong out of conference play, rough mid conference stretch, short bench, no deep threat.  Good news, look at how last season ended?

I don't know if that's fair to this year's team.

- Our OOC performance was much better this year (lets not forget we lost to PITT and SIU-C last year). The FL State and Houston losses are very similar to the Seton Hall and Auburn losses.

- We lost 5 of 6 at one point in conference play last year and were  17-11 at one point (currently 17-6). We're 3-1 in last 4 so hard to say were in a "rough" mid-conference stretch...

- Yes short bench

- We have two legitimate deep threats (A's from Wiz's rating system) in Jacobs and Weaver...They are both more than  4% better from 3 this year than our best last year and that not even taking into account the 3pt line moved back which decreased 3pt% by about 3% across the board.

 

[RiseAndGrind]

Something that has been bothering me... Jacobs is routinely wide open in the corner and they don’t get him the ball. Who’s wrong Jacobs or his teammates? Do they need to get him the ball or should he be cutting to the basket? 

[ACE]

Yuri has got to shoot more 3s to keep the defense honest. They just sag off of Collins and Goodwin and pack it in. I know he's not known as a sharpshooter, but he is 35% on the season, but he has only shot 20 3s.  I would encourage him to shoot a couple a game, so the defense will have to come out and play him.

[wgstl]

32 minutes ago, glazedandconfused said:

I don't know if that's fair to this year's team.

- Our OOC performance was much better this year (lets not forget we lost to PITT and SIU-C last year). The FL State and Houston losses are very similar to the Seton Hall and Auburn losses.

- We lost 5 of 6 at one point in conference play last year and were  17-11 at one point (currently 17-6). We're 3-1 in last 4 so hard to say were in a "rough" mid-conference stretch...

- Yes short bench

- We have two legitimate deep threats (A's from Wiz's rating system) in Jacobs and Weaver...They are both more than  4% better from 3 this year than our best last year and that not even taking into account the 3pt line moved back which decreased 3pt% by about 3% across the board.

 

you're being to literal about the mid season thing. 

Yes, last year mid season we saw them lose 5 of 6, which was the rough stretch I was talking about.  For the most part, that stretch was also against some pretty good teams, but we were also under performing, no?

The stretch im talking about currently this season, while we have collected some W's, they were not pretty, and we struggled. Had the Philly stretch been any of the top 10 teams in the conference, they may have been losses, actually Id bet we would go 1-1 tops.  A rough stretch doesn't necessarily have to mean Losses, you can win and still be playing poorly.  The point is, the only difference between this rough stretch between last year and this year, last's years was a little harder, which is why it saw more losses, we most likely see the same thing if it wasnt the help of Fordham, and the philly teams to cushion it. 

[wgstl]

13 minutes ago, ACE said:

Yuri has got to shoot more 3s to keep the defense honest. They just sag off of Collins and Goodwin and pack it in. I know he's not known as a sharpshooter, but he is 35% on the season, but he has only shot 20 3s.  I would encourage him to shoot a couple a game, so the defense will have to come out and play him.

preach.  If your're around 35% you dont have to make the 3 for the defense to guard you closer, you just have to shoot it. 

[Bay Area Billiken]

32 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

Something that has been bothering me... Jacobs is routinely wide open in the corner and they don’t get him the ball. Who’s wrong Jacobs or his teammates? Do they need to get him the ball or should he be cutting to the basket? 

I think the team needs to get Jacobs the ball when he’s open.

[glazedandconfused]

11 minutes ago, wgstl said:

you're being to literal about the mid season thing. 

Yes, last year mid season we saw them lose 5 of 6, which was the rough stretch I was talking about.  For the most part, that stretch was also against some pretty good teams, but we were also under performing, no?

The stretch im talking about currently this season, while we have collected some W's, they were not pretty, and we struggled. Had the Philly stretch been any of the top 10 teams in the conference, they may have been losses, actually Id bet we would go 1-1 tops.  A rough stretch doesn't necessarily have to mean Losses, you can win and still be playing poorly.  The point is, the only difference between this rough stretch between last year and this year, last's years was a little harder, which is why it saw more losses, we most likely see the same thing if it wasnt the help of Fordham, and the philly teams to cushion it. 

A rough stretch where we are winning a ton of games is way different than a rough stretch where we are losing a bunch of games. Results matter haha. We're 17-6. Last year we were 17-11 and lost 5 of 6 (including to bad teams Richmond and by 30 (!) to a bad St Joes team. There's undeniably a major difference. 

 

We're on pace to go 11-7 in a much harder A-10 with a younger less experienced team and with a better OOC performance.