Voters could bring the MLS to St. Louis April 4th

[Tilkowsky]

1 hour ago, cheeseman said:

Actually, the entire region suffers or thrives if the City does well so I completely disagree that nobody has any interest in this area.

Agreed. But the County and St. Charles County aren't responsible for making policing better in the City. Or, they aren't responsible for making the City schools better.

The City can only do that.

interesting that the average salary in the City of St. Louis is 21000 per year.

People who want to raise taxes (Prop I does that) on those people and raise taxes on businesses already in the City (Prop 2) (who have never received a tax break in the life of their business)?

To give 60 million dollars to Paul Edgerly who recently bought a house inFlorida for 31.5 million dollars?

if that is what you want then go ahead.

[JohnnyJumpUp]

I can't wait for April 5th to get here!!!

[RiseOfTheBillikens]

28 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

Agreed. But the County and St. Charles County aren't responsible for making policing better in the City. Or, they aren't responsible for making the City schools better.

The City can only do that.

interesting that the average salary in the City of St. Louis is 21000 per year.

People who want to raise taxes (Prop I does that) on those people and raise taxes on businesses already in the City (Prop 2) (who have never received a tax break in the life of their business)?

To give 60 million dollars to Paul Edgerly who recently bought a house inFlorida for 31.5 million dollars?

if that is what you want then go ahead.

Life's about more than money. MLS game would be a whole new experience for me personally.  Drink some beers with some friends and get rowdy with some crazy soccer fans. Sounds like a great time. Im willing to pay and I still have a good amount of debt from school. But I got a full time job in my career field right out of college thanks to the wonderful SLU education. So I'm fine. Bring on the half percent. If you guys want your roads fixed you should of passed the gas tax. That's how the cities infrastructure would of got fixed. But people just hate being taxed.  And the people complaining about the city seem to not spend much time in the city. Everyone gets to have an opinion, but that's all they are is opinions. I'm trying to get everyone I know to go vote. Hopefully St. Louis gets something to celebrate for once.

[TheChosenOne]

25 minutes ago, RiseOfTheBillikens said:

And the people complaining about the city seem to not spend much time in the city. Everyone gets to have an opinion, but that's all they are is opinions.

Honestly, I assume people who either live/lived or work/worked in the city have much more negative things to say about the city than "hoosiers living in Saint Charles or Jefferson County." It doesn't take a hater to see significant issues with the city of St. Louis. It is impressive how little development there has been downtown the last 15 years (coupled with almost equally impressive development in places like Clayton/Chesterfield/etc.). I am a big fan of the CWE and the Cortex district (had a great dinner at a restaurant that just opened there this past weekend), so there are pockets seeing development, but not much downtown beyond the very corporate Ballpark Village. I assume the only real solution for the city is a sizeable population increase?

I think people who live in the city enjoy ripping people who live in the suburbs, but many of those people would probably love to live in the city if it was a desirable option.

[RiseOfTheBillikens]

6 minutes ago, TheChosenOne said:

Honestly, I assume people who either live/lived or work/worked in the city have much more negative things to say about the city than "hoosiers living in Saint Charles or Jefferson County." It doesn't take a hater to see significant issues with the city of St. Louis. It is impressive how little development there has been downtown the last 15 years (coupled with almost equally impressive development in places like Clayton/Chesterfield/etc.). I am a big fan of the CWE and the Cortex district (had a great dinner at a restaurant that just opened there this past weekend), so there are pockets seeing development, but not much downtown beyond the very corporate Ballpark Village. I assume the only real solution for the city is a sizeable population increase?

I think people who live in the city enjoy ripping people who live in the suburbs, but many of those people would probably love to live in the city if it was a desirable option.

I don't disagree with you. These just aren't St. Louis issues. These are the same issues many large urban cities in America share. I just think it's unfair to single out St. Louis. To each their own. There's definitely positives to living out west. I'm done posting on this topic. I feel like glorydays

[RiseAndGrind]

19 minutes ago, TheChosenOne said:

Honestly, I assume people who either live/lived or work/worked in the city have much more negative things to say about the city than "hoosiers living in Saint Charles or Jefferson County." It doesn't take a hater to see significant issues with the city of St. Louis. It is impressive how little development there has been downtown the last 15 years (coupled with almost equally impressive development in places like Clayton/Chesterfield/etc.). I am a big fan of the CWE and the Cortex district (had a great dinner at a restaurant that just opened there this past weekend), so there are pockets seeing development, but not much downtown beyond the very corporate Ballpark Village. I assume the only real solution for the city is a sizeable population increase?

I think people who live in the city enjoy ripping people who live in the suburbs, but many of those people would probably love to live in the city if it was a desirable option.

Downtown has a long way to go, but the bold is incorrect. 

[Box and Won]

28 minutes ago, TheChosenOne said:

Honestly, I assume people who either live/lived or work/worked in the city have much more negative things to say about the city than "hoosiers living in Saint Charles or Jefferson County."

I have not found this to be the case.

[JohnnyJumpUp]

The new mayor of St. Louis must do something, if you want to bring people back to the city. Like implement a "stop and frisk" strategie, to help lower criminal activity, in turn making the city a safer place to live. Like figure out a way to rescue a failing public school system. It will take years, but someone needs to get the wheels in motion with safety and schools and 20 years from now you could see drastic changes.

[Tilkowsky]

57 minutes ago, RiseOfTheBillikens said:

Life's about more than money. MLS game would be a whole new experience for me personally.  Drink some beers with some friends and get rowdy with some crazy soccer fans. Sounds like a great time. Im willing to pay and I still have a good amount of debt from school. But I got a full time job in my career field right out of college thanks to the wonderful SLU education. So I'm fine. Bring on the half percent. If you guys want your roads fixed you should of passed the gas tax. That's how the cities infrastructure would of got fixed. But people just hate being taxed.  And the people complaining about the city seem to not spend much time in the city. Everyone gets to have an opinion, but that's all they are is opinions. I'm trying to get everyone I know to go vote. Hopefully St. Louis gets something to celebrate for once.

Easy for you to say bring on the half cent sales tax - not everyone would be in a position to say that.

Were you not around for the Super Bowl Parade? World Series win in 2006? World Series win in 2011.

St. Louis has had their fair share of celebrations.

 

[Slu let the dogs out?]

On 3/27/2017 at 8:33 AM, JMM28 said:

 

I am not a St.Charles resident. I live further out than that.

The thing that I and St. Charles residents have is low crime and really good schools. I never mentioned money.

Civic pride is great. How much is it worth to you? 60 million?

Edgerly and Kavanaugh can self fund.

They have enough money combined to do it.

Moody's has downgraded the City bonds again. Adding more debt to that won't help the City's poor cash position.

Newsflash: you don't have to live 70 miles outside of the city for really good schools and low crime. In fact, take a look at this list of top public schools in Missouri. The top 10 are all in St. Louis county. https://www.niche.com/k12/rankings/public-high-schools/best-overall/s/missouri/

You can keep the tract housing, 15 minute drives just to get milk, and hour-long commutes to get anywhere meaningful. 

It always cracks me up when outer suburb/fringe metro STL residents think that they aren't impacted by the city of St. Louis. A stronger city center helps create a stronger STL metro. The lack of progressive thinking in this region has been killing us for years. People (that live 30 miles out) would rather complain about the city than do anything to help turn it around. After all, they don't think it affects them at all.

This MLS deal is no different than if a major company approached city officials and negotiated a deal to move here. Public private partnerships have been a part of cities nation wide for decades. It's how you get things done. Don't like it, come up with something radically different. 

[slufan13]

Would it be possible that Kavanaugh/Edgerly decide they will self-fund but only if the stadium is outside the city?

[brianstl]

29 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

Downtown has a long way to go, but the bold is incorrect. 

I have worked downtown for almost 20 years now.  In that time period it has come a long way when it comes to people living downtown, big improvement.  That said, it has gone in the opposite direction when it comes to people working downtown.  You walk around at lunch and it is pretty sad compared to what it used to be.  The worst part is what it used to be was pretty sad compared to 20 years prior to that.  It has been almost 30 years since a class A office building was built downtown.

[Billiken Rich]

My inlaws were northsiders (lived on Giles) from birth through the early 70's (not sure the exact date.)  They left the city due to all the nanny-state bs and the birth of my wife.  Deseg blew apart the neighborhood schools my wife's parent went to and they never looked back.  My wife's mom was a teacher.

 

I've worked in the city for the last 20 years and would love to live in the city.  Two kids in school though make that impossible. There isn't really an option in the city for my boys as inexpensive, safe,  and fantastic as the Rockwood district.

 

I any case, soccer fans look at this the same way NFL fans did: "It's worth the cost what ever it is!"  I don't see any benefit for me so it's a good thing for the pro-soccer folks that I live in the county.  I was never a Rams fan but at least being an NFL city is part of an exclusive group everyone wants to be a part of.  Not seeing that with the MLS so much.....

 

 

 

   

[TheChosenOne]

43 minutes ago, brianstl said:

I have worked downtown for almost 20 years now.  In that time period it has come a long way when it comes to people living downtown, big improvement.  That said, it has gone in the opposite direction when it comes to people working downtown.  You walk around at lunch and it is pretty sad compared to what it used to be.  The worst part is what it used to be was pretty sad compared to 20 years prior to that.  It has been almost 30 years since a class A office building was built downtown.

This is what I meant by lack of development downtown over the past 15 years. I didn't realize how damn old you were brianstl.

[Pistol]

1 hour ago, TheChosenOne said:

Honestly, I assume people who either live/lived or work/worked in the city have much more negative things to say about the city than "hoosiers living in Saint Charles or Jefferson County."

 

39 minutes ago, Box and Won said:

I have not found this to be the case.

It certainly cuts both ways, but probably has to do a lot with an individual's background. If you're from the City, or from the inner ring County, or farther out in the County, or from one of the exurban areas (like St. Charles), or another place altogether, you're going to have a different perspective on the City, regardless of where you live at the moment. I grew up in the City limits and haven't lived there since 2012; I miss it dearly, love it for all its eccentricities, but acknowledge some of its massive problems. A lot of the negativity from City dwellers about places like St. Charles comes from a place of insecurity, given that the primary population trend behind St. Charles' boom had/has to do with an "escape" mentality, and one that St. Charles residents haven't been shy about, either.

I will also say that I've never seen a city with such a severe city/suburbs split like St. Louis, be it legal, cultural, social, you name it. I know much of that comes from the fact that it's a rare case of a city that isn't part of a larger county, but good grief. Every time you hear "[Project] announced for [City/County]" there's an immediate wave of resentment from residents of the other side. I obviously have an inherent City bias, but this dynamic isn't healthy. I think the best long-term thing that could happen for St. Louis would be to merge the City and County, consolidate a few dozen County municipalities (particularly in the NW segment), and move on as a more cohesive entity. One positive development of the Ferguson situation is that it's brought the absolute mess of the St. Louis metro area to national light. When you start to read about it as an outsider, it's absolutely perplexing.

I get a lot of the criticisms of the City: it has about double the homicide rate of its peers (Cleveland, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, et al) and a higher overall crime rate, it's relatively inefficient governmentally, it has a downtown that has never quite bounced back, and it has some deep-seated cultural and social quirks that can be frustrating. I understand not feeling safe when bystanders are shot riding Metrolink; I have a cousin who was shot in the back for the $6 in his pocket a few months ago after leaving a casino. It's the kind of city that can be the best place you've ever lived at the same time it's constantly breaking your heart.

But it's also worth acknowledging that the suburbs and exurbs simply wouldn't be what they are without it. Someone said it earlier, but a place like St. Charles County does not exist on its own. The companies that have set up shop out there are the kinds that love to locate on the fringe of a major metro area. The infrastructure that has built up, and the way it has - that doesn't happen in a stand-alone suburban-style county of between 300,000 and 400,000 people. Those places only exist within commuting distance of a major city and don't just happen in a vacuum. Whether they want to admit it or not, the health of the city that ties them together is important not just to the city itself.

The fact that this is where the conversation about a possible MLS stadium has gone just shows how divided and complicated and messy the place is.

As for that stadium, I'm genuinely torn on the issue. I think it'd be great to have, and would LOVE an MLS team in St. Louis. It makes so much sense. But I also HATE public funds paying for stadiums, especially large percentages. I think some public funding can be fine for upkeep, upgrades, surrounding infrastructure, and so forth but watching municipal governments fleece their citizens to build these is probably the grossest trend in sports. The dollar amount is smaller in this instance. There's a genuine case that it's not just throwing away money, the way we look like idiots for the horrible Dome deal. But on principle, it's still troubling that a city smarting from that deal is willing to roll the dice again. I don't know. It's a tough one.

[TheChosenOne]

1 hour ago, Slu let the dogs out? said:

It always cracks me up when outer suburb/fringe metro STL residents think that they aren't impacted by the city of St. Louis. A stronger city center helps create a stronger STL metro. The lack of progressive thinking in this region has been killing us for years. People (that live 30 miles out) would rather complain about the city than do anything to help turn it around. After all, they don't think it affects them at all.

I think most people would agree with that first part, but aren't the issues with the city more due to the lack of quality leadership in the city of St. Louis than people who live in the county?

I think a lot of these discussions end up in arguments because of some of this stereotyping (on both sides). It just seems odd as someone who has lived in the city and now lives in the county how there is kind of this rivalry between city vs. county residents.

[TheChosenOne]

13 minutes ago, Pistol said:

I think the best long-term thing that could happen for St. Louis would be to merge the City and County, consolidate a few dozen County municipalities (particularly in the NW segment), and move on as a more cohesive entity. One positive development of the Ferguson situation is that it's brought the absolute mess of the St. Louis metro area to national light. When you start to read about it as an outsider, it's absolutely perplexing.

It seems like most are in agreement with this, it is just a matter of how exactly to best do that and how to get it done. St. Louis just seems like an odd nut to crack.

[cgeldmacher]

I agree that sports teams don't draw new residents.  I don't want this particular sports team to come to town to draw new residents.  I want this sports team to come for the residents that are already here.  So much of the dissent for these Propositions is about the sting we all still have from the Rams leaving.  However, not doing a good deal simply because you got burned by a previous bad deal is not smart.  Any good businessman evaluates deals individually and doesn't allow past business dealings to affect his current business relationships.

This is a good deal.  The stadium will pay for itself if the team is a success.  The team will be a success.  It will be around for years.  I guarantee there is no idiotic escape clause in the lease like Kroenke had.  Let's not let this good deal go, because we recently got burned by Kroenke.  If we do, then we will have let him hurt St. Louis twice.

[Pistol]

The fact that it's going before voters at all is an achievement.

Is there any good polling about how this is expected to shake out?

[Tilkowsky]

1 hour ago, Slu let the dogs out? said:

Newsflash: you don't have to live 70 miles outside of the city for really good schools and low crime. In fact, take a look at this list of top public schools in Missouri. The top 10 are all in St. Louis county. https://www.niche.com/k12/rankings/public-high-schools/best-overall/s/missouri/

You can keep the tract housing, 15 minute drives just to get milk, and hour-long commutes to get anywhere meaningful. 

It always cracks me up when outer suburb/fringe metro STL residents think that they aren't impacted by the city of St. Louis. A stronger city center helps create a stronger STL metro. The lack of progressive thinking in this region has been killing us for years. People (that live 30 miles out) would rather complain about the city than do anything to help turn it around. After all, they don't think it affects them at all.

This MLS deal is no different than if a major company approached city officials and negotiated a deal to move here. Public private partnerships have been a part of cities nation wide for decades. It's how you get things done. Don't like it, come up with something radically different. 

Radically different. How about this. No more TIF money or tax credits for any business.

The reason that the City/State are in the financial mess that they are is giving away too much TIF money or tax credits.

Why do successful companies like IKEA and Microsoft need tax credits to either build or move jobs to the City?

Wal-Mart wanted to build a store in Florissant. They wanted TIF money. Florissant said no. Wal-Mart built the store anyway.

My radical idea. Let's get back to Economics 101 or Capitalism. If IKEA or Microsoft want to come to a market like St. Louis they should make a business decision and do so. If not, that is ok as well.

[Box and Won]

21 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

Radically different. How about this. No more TIF money or tax credits for any business.

The reason that the City/State are in the financial mess that they are is giving away too much TIF money or tax credits.

Why do successful companies like IKEA and Microsoft need tax credits to either build or move jobs to the City?

Wal-Mart wanted to build a store in Florissant. They wanted TIF money. Florissant said no. Wal-Mart built the store anyway.

My radical idea. Let's get back to Economics 101 or Capitalism. If IKEA or Microsoft want to come to a market like St. Louis they should make a business decision and do so. If not, that is ok as well.

And this speaks to one of the many problems with living in a fragmented region. If the city hadn't given IKEA a TIF, a neighboring municipality certainly would've.

[Tilkowsky]

1 minute ago, Box and Won said:

And this speaks to one of the many problems with living in a fragmented region. If the city hadn't given IKEA a TIF, a neighboring municipality certainly would've.

I would have been ok with that. The City can't afford to give TIF money to companies like IKEA.

What municipality do you think would have done that? Hopefully they would have been able to afford it.

[cheeseman]

2 hours ago, JohnnyJumpUp said:

The new mayor of St. Louis must do something, if you want to bring people back to the city. Like implement a "stop and frisk" strategie, to help lower criminal activity, in turn making the city a safer place to live. Like figure out a way to rescue a failing public school system. It will take years, but someone needs to get the wheels in motion with safety and schools and 20 years from now you could see drastic changes.

Actually, I saw a plot map that showed where the murders were taking place in the City and the vast majority occur in about a 10 block square area up by Fair Grounds Park - Beaumont H.S. area.  The problem is drug related and gang territory related.  The community policing practices that are used in KC and other places have shown to be far more targeted and surgical in nature than any "stop and frisk" activity.

[Box and Won]

3 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

What municipality do you think would have done that?

Damn near any of them.

[RiseAndGrind]

5 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

I would have been ok with that. The City can't afford to give TIF money to companies like IKEA.

What municipality do you think would have done that? Hopefully they would have been able to afford it.

Of course you would have been okay with that.