Voters could bring the MLS to St. Louis April 4th

[Tilkowsky]

5 minutes ago, Box and Won said:

Damn near any of them.

Care to name one?

[Tilkowsky]

4 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

Of course you would have been okay with that. 

Well I don't get the significance of having an IKEA store in your city.

From what I have read the furniture is over priced, isn't that good and you have to put it together.

Maybe you can explain the phenomenon that is IKEA.

[Pistol]

19 minutes ago, Box and Won said:

And this speaks to one of the many problems with living in a fragmented region. If the city hadn't given IKEA a TIF, a neighboring municipality certainly would've.

This is so, so important. Counties and municipalities within the STL metro are competing with one another. It's absurd. It's not normal.

The stadium is another example. As a regionally supported deal, it's a slam dunk. As a city-only proposition it's a harder sell.

[brianstl]

This is why they all would have given TIF money to IKEA.

http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news/2016/09/22/following-ikea-s-opening-state-sales-tax-revenue.html

[Box and Won]

11 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

Care to name one?

Which municipalities would've given IKEA TIF money?

Crestwood, Sunset Hills, Richmond Heights, and Chestefield, to name a few.  

[Tilkowsky]

4 minutes ago, Box and Won said:

Which municipalities would've given IKEA TIF money?

Crestwood, Sunset Hills, Richmond Heights, and Chestefield, to name a few.  

My guess is that those cities could better afford to do so. I bet each one of those municipalities are in better financial shape than the City.

[RiseAndGrind]

1 minute ago, Tilkowsky said:

My guess is that those cities could better afford to do so. I bet each one of those municipalities are in better financial shape than the City.

How do those cities contribute to solving the regional homelessness problem?  How's Crestwood mall doing? How about Chesterfield mall?

 

[Tilkowsky]

19 minutes ago, brianstl said:

This is why they all would have given TIF money to IKEA.

http://www.bizjournals.com/stlouis/news/2016/09/22/following-ikea-s-opening-state-sales-tax-revenue.html

If I am reading this correctly the City basically gave IKEA 67 million dollars for 250,000 dollars in tax revenue annually.

Is that right?

[Pistol]

4 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

My guess is that those cities could better afford to do so. I bet each one of those municipalities are in better financial shape than the City.

Not necessarily. Many of the smaller municipalities around the area are more than happy to have the City take the heat for financial woes, including no fewer than two of Box's examples.

[Tilkowsky]

3 minutes ago, Pistol said:

Not necessarily. Many of the smaller municipalities around the area are more than happy to have the City take the heat for financial woes, including no fewer than two of Box's examples.

I have to think Richmond Heights and Chesterfield are most certainly better off than the City.

Crestwood and Sunset Hills have no business giving out TIF money if they are in a similar financial situation as to the City.

My example of Wal-Mart and Florissant is how things should work.

[jimbofive]

Mods, can we close this thread, too.  Also boring AF.

Thanks,

Everyone with a pulse

[TheChosenOne]

12 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

How about Chesterfield mall?

I assume it is only a matter of time until Chesterfield mall looks like Crestwood mall. There is a Twin Peaks on the outside of the mall though...

[slufan13]

21 hours ago, slufan13 said:

I thought Tilkowsky was on the Metz 5 posts a day rule

Yes? No?

[brianstl]

7 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

If I am reading this correctly the City basically gave IKEA 67 million dollars for 250,000 dollars in tax revenue annually.

Is that right?

The City gave actually gave IKEA nothing.  The project cost a total of $110,000,000 ($80 million for design/construction and $30,000,000 for the land).  The City approved a TIF for IKEA that will let IKEA keep a portion of the sales tax collected at the store until the the total of $37.1 million is reached.  After IKEA withholds it's portion of city sales tax, the city will still collect 250,000 every year until the TIF is paid off.

That part of the article was poorly written.  The city actually gave away no money.  All the money here is new money generated by sales at IKEA,  Now you can argue they would have built it without the TIF, but the City didn't give away any funds from someplace else here.

[bonwich]

5 hours ago, cheeseman said:

Thanks for informing me but what I thought the money from the City and the  County is from a car rental and hotel surtax - correct?  The State actually pays out of the general fund - Yes/No?

Dirty little secret:

"The $8.5 million raised yearly by the city’s hotel-motel tax, for instance, does not cover debt payments on the Dome, Payne wrote, as the new stadium attorneys have alleged in court. It’s instead pledged to the $17.7 million annual debt payments for the nearly 25-year-old south wing of the city’s convention center."

As I said earlier in the thread, whenever these elaborate deals are made, the smartest people at the table are not the ones representing the taxpayers' best interests. 

[Tilkowsky]

35 minutes ago, RiseAndGrind said:

How do those cities contribute to solving the regional homelessness problem?  How's Crestwood mall doing? How about Chesterfield mall?

 

My opinion. Each city/municipality should solve it's own homeless problem.

Chesterfield Mall isn't doing well at all, but the new outlet malls in Chesterfield are doing pretty well.

Crestwood Mall is closed as far as I know. Crestwood is one of the cities that I said wasn't doing well and should not go after IKEA.

[brianstl]

Just now, Tilkowsky said:

My opinion. Each city/municipality should solve it's own homeless problem.

Chesterfield Mall isn't doing well at all, but the new outlet malls in Chesterfield are doing pretty well.

Crestwood Mall is closed as far as I know. Crestwood is one of the cities that I said wasn't doing well and should not go after IKEA.

Then maybe the rest of the region should stop dropping them off at Larry Rice's place,

[Tilkowsky]

8 minutes ago, brianstl said:

The City gave actually gave IKEA nothing.  The project cost a total of $110,000,000 ($80 million for design/construction and $30,000,000 for the land).  The City approved a TIF for IKEA that will let IKEA keep a portion of the sales tax collected at the store until the the total of $37.1 million is reached.  After IKEA withholds it's portion of city sales tax, the city will still collect 250,000 every year until the TIF is paid off.

That part of the article was poorly written.  The city actually gave away no money.  All the money here is new money generated by sales at IKEA,  Now you can argue they would have built it without the TIF, but the City didn't give away any funds from someplace else here.

The City did forfeit 37.1 million in tax revenue.

Also IKEA didn't have to pay for the land to build their store. A business expense that is routine.

Setting aside the 37 million, even taking the 30 million divide that by 250000 and you get 120 years for the City to recoup it's 30 million back.

Now you can argue that IKEA will employ people and they will pay taxes - maybe you get it down to 60 years.

Just seems like a bad deal for the City on a balance sheet.

[Tilkowsky]

6 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Then maybe the rest of the region should stop dropping them off at Larry Rice's place,

I didn't know Chesterfield was dropping off their homeless there. If true, I would agree.

[bonwich]

13 minutes ago, brianstl said:

That part of the article was poorly written.  The city actually gave away no money.  All the money here is new money generated by sales at IKEA,  Now you can argue they would have built it without the TIF, but the City didn't give away any funds from someplace else here.

The whole article is pretty loose with numbers. "The Swedish retailer’s 63110 ZIP code saw a 40 percent spike in state sales tax revenue from October 2015 through June 2016 compared with the prior-year period, according to the latest available data from the Missouri Department of Revenue. The period with Ikea generated $277 million in state sales tax revenue versus $197 million in the prior-year period without Ikea."

OK, so round the state sales tax up to 5% for back-of-envelope purposes. This appears to say that from 10/15 to 6/16, there were total sales of $1.35 billion just in 63110. Sounds a bit high to me.  

[brianstl]

Just now, Tilkowsky said:

The City did forfeit 37.1 million in tax revenue.

Also IKEA didn't have to pay for the land to build their store. A business expense that is routine.

IKEA paid for the land.  The city forfeited tax money that didn't exist before IKEA.  

IKEA is one of the few businesses I actually don't have a problem getting a TIF like this.  IKEA isn't cannibalizing sales at other city stores.  First off, there aren't that many places to buy furniture in the city.  Second, IKEA costumers are going to get their IKEA furniture one way or another.  If the store wouldn't have opened here they would have continued to buy online or making trips to Chicago or KC.  IKEA actually brings new shoppers into the city.  Third, IKEA proved that a major retail project can be successful in the City.  Now if the City is smart, they will point to IKEA's sales figures and drive a better bargain on future retail projects (I am not betting on the city actually doing this).

[RiseAndGrind]

9 minutes ago, Tilkowsky said:

I didn't know Chesterfield was dropping off their homeless there. If true, I would agree.

There is a lot you don't know, apparently. 

[Tilkowsky]

9 minutes ago, brianstl said:

IKEA paid for the land.  The city forfeited tax money that didn't exist before IKEA.  

IKEA is one of the few businesses I actually don't have a problem getting a TIF like this.  IKEA isn't cannibalizing sales at other city stores.  First off, there aren't that many places to buy furniture in the city.  Second, IKEA costumers are going to get their IKEA furniture one way or another.  If the store wouldn't have opened here they would have continued to buy online or making trips to Chicago or KC.  IKEA actually brings new shoppers into the city.  Third, IKEA proved that a major retail project can be successful in the City.  Now if the City is smart, they will point to IKEA's sales figures and drive a better bargain on future retail projects (I am not betting on the city actually doing this).

With 30 million dollars provided by the City IKEA bought the land.

I don't know how many shoppers IKEA brings into the City.

My fear is that they go to IKEA and then leave the City. Kind of like a ballgame, hockey game, basketball game or MLS.

As you know I think the City needs to find ways to attract people to LIVE in the City.

IKEA or MLS will not do that.

[brianstl]

5 minutes ago, bonwich said:

The whole article is pretty loose with numbers. "The Swedish retailer’s 63110 ZIP code saw a 40 percent spike in state sales tax revenue from October 2015 through June 2016 compared with the prior-year period, according to the latest available data from the Missouri Department of Revenue. The period with Ikea generated $277 million in state sales tax revenue versus $197 million in the prior-year period without Ikea."

OK, so round the state sales tax up to 5% for back-of-envelope purposes. This appears to say that from 10/15 to 6/16, there were total sales of $1.35 billion just in 63110. Sounds a bit high to me.  

You have The Hill, The Grove, South Grand, Zoo, Science Center, Botanical Gardens, a Mercedes dealership, a Chevy dealership, Fred Weber Material (this is probably a big generator), Barnes hospital complex, SLU hospital and tons of smaller scale stuff,

[brianstl]

1 minute ago, Tilkowsky said:

With 30 million dollars provided by the City IKEA bought the land.

I don't know how many shoppers IKEA brings into the City.

My fear is that they go to IKEA and then leave the City. Kind of like a ballgame, hockey game, basketball game or MLS.

As you know I think the City needs to find ways to attract people to LIVE in the City.

IKEA or MLS will not do that.

IKEA didn't get $30 million from the city to buy the land.  IKEA hasn't even got close to the $37.1 million they will get from the TIF.  The money will be collected in sales taxes over years.  If IKEA moves the City doesn't get stuck with a bill.  IKEA just stops getting to keep a portion of the sales tax they collected in the City.