Recruiting - Hindsight

[ACE]

This team began to be assembled in the fall of 2010. We had a good young nucleus, but still had not gone to the Big Dance. We signed John Manning, a two-star big man. At the time, with RM's track record of developing bigs, seemed like an ok signing to stash away. Obviously, turned out to not be good signing. Instead, this would have been a good time for Harriman to land another quality big from Down Under to follow up on CE and RL. If the RM era lasted longer, maybe JM develops better or perhaps RM encourages him to leave for greener pastures following his sophomore season. About a month after the Manning signing, the ruling on the "situation" happens. In the spring, Reed leaves for good so we have one scholarship. The program had just come off a bad season and the "situation" sure as hell doesn't help. Also, Porter Moser leaves the spring of 2011. A couple months later in June, we sign GG. I still think under the circumstances, a pretty decent signing - a guy signed by Lon Kruger and listed in the top 150 on some recruiting lists. While not a star, I think he was a more valuable role player than many on the board gave him credit for.

Then in August of 2011, we get an early commitment from Jared Drew. As many of you know, I was the President of the RM fan club, but this obviously was a terrible signing. Again, the program was not a very attractive destination having just come off the situation season, so the pool of quality talented interested in us may have been thin, but we should have done better. Then a couple months later in Nov. 2011, Keith Carter signs. I still contend this signing made a lot of sense. Majerus values stacking several guys who could run the point. There is no doubt his departure is hurting us this season. While I don't think the kid would have been a superstar - he has started every game this season, averaged 9 ppg and has 61 assists to 34 turnovers. He is the true point guard this team is lacking and would have helped ease the transition this year. I don't blame Crews or anybody for the kid leaving. Maybe he just wanted to play for RM or was simply a tool. If he was more patient and stuck around, he would have been our starting PG for two years.

Then in June of 2012, coming off our first trip to the Big Dance, we were able to land transfer Austin McBroom. This would turn out to be last signing of the RM era. I have no problem with this signing. He did some good things last year and has done some good this year, he is just being miscast as a starting PG. Again, if KC is still here, AM is back in the role he is best suited for - 6th man, offensive spark off the bench.

JC takes over as the "interim" coach in fall of 2012. No doubt this hurts recruiting. We sign Crawford in the fall. Mike is an OK role player, but in hindsight, I wonder about the wisdom of this signing. It might have been better to wait until the spring of that year. Now coming off of back-to-back trips to the Tourney, we may have been able to fill that scholarship with a higher level recruit. Then in the spring, JC is named permanent head coach. In fairness to JC, the delay in naming him the HC could not have helped. It was right in the middle of spring recruiting - "the paperwork was sitting on Biondi's desk." Then he goes out and gets RA and TL. The consensus on the board at the time was that those appeared to be good signings. They had some legit offers, especially TL. Not sure what has happened to TL. He looks slower this year - maybe bulked up too much? I wonder about his future. Ash - I have no problem with that signing. Not good enough to carry a team, but can be a valuable piece of a winning team of surround with other good players.

Then the recruitment of the current freshmen. AG - I was not thrilled about that signing as the kids seemed like a project, but I will admit when I am wrong. He still has a lot of work to do, but I am encouraged by his potential. DR & MR, I put them together because they were each role players on loaded HS teams. I understand the value of getting players from winning programs, but not sure we needed two players like this. But on the other hand, I was impressed that we landed two players who had multiple BCS offers. It seemed our run of on-court success was paying dividends on the recruiting trail. MB - I like the signing then and still do. Had offers from Creighton and Okie State. Opposite of DR/MR, MB reportedly played on a horrible HS team. He was their tallest player and didn't really get to be a true point guard in HS. * I think one of the failings of Crews' recruiting was not getting a true point guard. I think MB has the potential to become that guy, but ideally he'd be learning from a true PG on the team. MY - Our recruit with the most upside. People on the board always worry about the quality of spring recruits - MY shows there are still good players out there. That leads me to BJ - not sure why we signed him and stashed him at prep school. In hindsight, it might have been better to leave that scholarship open and to have seen what else was available this past spring - as we were coming of our third consecutive trip the Big Dance. I'm just not sure we have capitalized on our on court success as well as we could have. I also have concerns about Welmer (I'll keep on open mind). Not sure the urgency in getting him locked up and stashed at a prep school. It might have been better to keep our options open for this coming spring. The big Canadian strikes me as a higher level recruit and I am hopeful he will be talented enough to make an immediate contribution.

In conclusion, plenty of blame to go around for how we got here and some was just simply bad luck and timing - The situation and RM's health transitioning to JC. I questioned the wisdom of signing six in the same class. I think last year, would have been a time to land a quality JUCO.

I'm still an optimist and believe this is a solid core of young players that can be built around, but they gotta stick together. I won't mind if a couple players transfer (as long as they are the right two who leave). There will be an opportunity to land an impact player in the spring if such an opportunity presents itself.

[Basketbill]

RM's health I think played a bigger role than we realize. His ability to talk to kids, family etc must have been hindered. His energy level down etc.. that is why I suspect we had issues with kids like Drew and Carter. RM wanted talent and character, but perhaps was too fatigued to see the character flaws in these kids.....

[Bizziken]

Good post, Ace.

I still don't have a problem with the John Manning signing. He was a near 7'0'' recruit. It's difficult to land quality centers, especially in our situation and status as a non-power type of program. I don't mind taking a flyer on a guy like that. He isn't a superstar by any stretch of the imagination, but he's serviceable at least.

The one fault I have with Crews is the lack of a Point Guard. Despite all the fanfare that 'bigs' get, in college basketball a PG is probably THE most important position. After Carter transferred, we needed to replace him. We didn't. I'm still not entirely convinced that there is a surefire PG in this current class of freshmen. This is a huge, huge, huge issue, exacerbated by the fact that we don't have a PG coming in next season either.

[Billikenboy]

This team began to be assembled in the fall of 2010. We had a good young nucleus, but still had not gone to the Big Dance. We signed John Manning, a two-star big man. At the time, with RM's track record of developing bigs, seemed like an ok signing to stash away. Obviously, turned out to not be good signing. Instead, this would have been a good time for Harriman to land another quality big from Down Under to follow up on CE and RL. If the RM era lasted longer, maybe JM develops better or perhaps RM encourages him to leave for greener pastures following his sophomore season. About a month after the Manning signing, the ruling on the "situation" happens. In the spring, Reed leaves for good so we have one scholarship. The program had just come off a bad season and the "situation" sure as hell doesn't help. Also, Porter Moser leaves the spring of 2011. A couple months later in June, we sign GG. I still think under the circumstances, a pretty decent signing - a guy signed by Lon Kruger and listed in the top 150 on some recruiting lists. While not a star, I think he was a more valuable role player than many on the board gave him credit for.

Then in August of 2011, we get an early commitment from Jared Drew. As many of you know, I was the President of the RM fan club, but this obviously was a terrible signing. Again, the program was not a very attractive destination having just come off the situation season, so the pool of quality talented interested in us may have been thin, but we should have done better. Then a couple months later in Nov. 2011, Keith Carter signs. I still contend this signing made a lot of sense. Majerus values stacking several guys who could run the point. There is no doubt his departure is hurting us this season. While I don't think the kid would have been a superstar - he has started every game this season, averaged 9 ppg and has 61 assists to 34 turnovers. He is the true point guard this team is lacking and would have helped ease the transition this year. I don't blame Crews or anybody for the kid leaving. Maybe he just wanted to play for RM or was simply a tool. If he was more patient and stuck around, he would have been our starting PG for two years.

Then in June of 2012, coming off our first trip to the Big Dance, we were able to land transfer Austin McBroom. This would turn out to be last signing of the RM era. I have no problem with this signing. He did some good things last year and has done some good this year, he is just being miscast as a starting PG. Again, if KC is still here, AM is back in the role he is best suited for - 6th man, offensive spark off the bench.

JC takes over as the "interim" coach in fall of 2012. No doubt this hurts recruiting. We sign Crawford in the fall. Mike is an OK role player, but in hindsight, I wonder about the wisdom of this signing. It might have been better to wait until the spring of that year. Now coming off of back-to-back trips to the Tourney, we may have been able to fill that scholarship with a higher level recruit. Then in the spring, JC is named permanent head coach. In fairness to JC, the delay in naming him the HC could not have helped. It was right in the middle of spring recruiting - "the paperwork was sitting on Biondi's desk." Then he goes out and gets RA and TL. The consensus on the board at the time was that those appeared to be good signings. They had some legit offers, especially TL. Not sure what has happened to TL. He looks slower this year - maybe bulked up too much? I wonder about his future. Ash - I have no problem with that signing. Not good enough to carry a team, but can be a valuable piece of a winning team of surround with other good players.

Then the recruitment of the current freshmen. AG - I was not thrilled about that signing as the kids seemed like a project, but I will admit when I am wrong. He still has a lot of work to do, but I am encouraged by his potential. DR & MR, I put them together because they were each role players on loaded HS teams. I understand the value of getting players from winning programs, but not sure we needed two players like this. But on the other hand, I was impressed that we landed two players who had multiple BCS offers. It seemed our run of on-court success was paying dividends on the recruiting trail. MB - I like the signing then and still do. Had offers from Creighton and Okie State. Opposite of DR/MR, MB reportedly played on a horrible HS team. He was their tallest player and didn't really get to be a true point guard in HS. * I think one of the failings of Crews' recruiting was not getting a true point guard. I think MB has the potential to become that guy, but ideally he'd be learning from a true PG on the team. MY - Our recruit with the most upside. People on the board always worry about the quality of spring recruits - MY shows there are still good players out there. That leads me to BJ - not sure why we signed him and stashed him at prep school. In hindsight, it might have been better to leave that scholarship open and to have seen what else was available this past spring - as we were coming of our third consecutive trip the Big Dance. I'm just not sure we have capitalized on our on court success as well as we could have. I also have concerns about Welmer (I'll keep on open mind). Not sure the urgency in getting him locked up and stashed at a prep school. It might have been better to keep our options open for this coming spring. The big Canadian strikes me as a higher level recruit and I am hopeful he will be talented enough to make an immediate contribution.

In conclusion, plenty of blame to go around for how we got here and some was just simply bad luck and timing - The situation and RM's health transitioning to JC. I questioned the wisdom of signing six in the same class. I think last year, would have been a time to land a quality JUCO.

I'm still an optimist and believe this is a solid core of young players that can be built around, but they gotta stick together. I won't mind if a couple players transfer (as long as they are the right two who leave). There will be an opportunity to land an impact player in the spring if such an opportunity presents itself.

If you can tell what this all means and predict the future it would really excite me. I think it is time for all the whiners and naysayers on this board to go back to your warm lounge chairs and let the kids play. Incidentally no one is going anywhere...deal with that! JC will be here next year and so will all the players you obviously cannot come in the game for. Enjoy sipping your non-fat, decaf tiramasu frappacino while wearing that Billiken blue velvet robe.

[BigMouthBilliken]

Fast forward to 1:35, you will not be disappointed.

[BigMouthBilliken]

Say what you want, TL is a beast! Dunk city!

[DoctorB]

Really?!? Good post?

The amount of fear and trembling and impatient whining on this board recently, along with monumental piles of BS, is really hard to take; but every so often there appears a post like this one, going above and beyond the normal manure, that sets me on edge to erupt.... and that forces me to sign in and provide a reasonable response.

Give me a break, Ace. This lengthy diatribe is deeply condescending; too bad all of human history could not be so easily dismissed with your illuminating "hindsight.' Plus the "I don't mind if 2 transfer, as long as it's the right 2" --boy is that offensive. Are you listening to yourself?

Besides its pointless nature, none of this is really helpful, and no, this is not a "good post". Life does not happen in hindsight, it happens in real time. For every one of those idiotic "explanations," the upshot of which is to hammer the present staff and to belittle the recruits -- well, let's just say that there are plausible comebacks. I agree with the guy telling you to wrap up in your velvety SLU robe, grab a steaming latte, and head back to the barcalounger. Dr. Phil is about to begin...

Good post, Ace.

[majerus mojo]

I thought it was a pretty solid summary in regards to recent recruiting. Guess I'm missing the part the comes across as 'whining'? If a kid doesn't pan out (JD, JM).. well, it was a bad signing in terms of moving the program forward, hindsight or not. I'll be generous and not even mention the sophomores here. The KC transfer is really killing us, but I don't think there was much Crews could do about that.

[majerus mojo]

Double post

[Bizziken]

Calm down, DocB. I was commenting on the timeline of recruiting over the past few years. I think it provides a decent overview of who we've recruited and when while going into potential motivations behind the specific recruitment of certain players.

I agree with the notion that you don't 'blame' anybody for recruiting certain players. Some pan out, some don't...that's the nature of college basketball. While many people are a little upset with the progression of the Sophomore class, I don't think anybody's given up on them yet. They have more than half their college basketball careers left to play...more than enough time to turn things around.

And to be fair, the thread IS entitled 'Recruiting- Hindsight' so it should be fairly apparent what it was going to be about...

[slu72]

Disagree, Dr. B, it was a fairly objective analysis of our recruiting since 2010. It's hard to argue with the numbers and results of RM's last two classes. None have really panned out well for the program. But let's evaluate JC's job. Granted, he was in between a rock and a hard place given the interim tag took so long to remove and had to scramble that spring. Still, we were all fairly excited about the players he delivered for the reasons Ace cited above. Sadly, this group, with the exception of AY, has to be called a disappointment to this point.

First, none proved ready enough last year to provide even a minimum of quality minutes to give our five SRs a much needed rest. That came to the forefront at the end of last year as the Five were simply worn out and a little bit nicked up after a long season. Ok, write that off as FR just not being ready. Fast forward thru to the first 14 games this year and review their progress. Let's leave out AY because he's doing about what was expected. But we really needed the other 3 to be the next man up given we have 6 FR on the roster. MC shows up on occasion, but the other two members have not shown up at all. While not ready to label them as busts, it would be hard to point to any meaningful contributions they've made this season. TL, the supposed stretch 4, has yet to hit a 3. RA looks totally lost out making mistakes that would have a HS coach pulling out his hair.

But, as stated earlier, JC needed bodies and had to recruit the SOPHs under the interim tag. Give him a pass. Bottom line, JC will be judged on the FR class, and it's way too early to pass judgement. We've seen good, bad, and some ugly from them, which is to be expected from FR who weren't 4 and 5 star recruits. By season's end we should have a much better idea if this group has the potential to lead us back to the promised land. Until then, sit back, put your robe on, and enjoy your double macchiato double Carmel lattes.

[ACE]

Really?!? Good post?

The amount of fear and trembling and impatient whining on this board recently, along with monumental piles of BS, is really hard to take; but every so often there appears a post like this one, going above and beyond the normal manure, that sets me on edge to erupt.... and that forces me to sign in and provide a reasonable response.

Give me a break, Ace. This lengthy diatribe is deeply condescending; too bad all of human history could not be so easily dismissed with your illuminating "hindsight.' Plus the "I don't mind if 2 transfer, as long as it's the right 2" --boy is that offensive. Are you listening to yourself?

Besides its pointless nature, none of this is really helpful, and no, this is not a "good post". Life does not happen in hindsight, it happens in real time. For every one of those idiotic "explanations," the upshot of which is to hammer the present staff and to belittle the recruits -- well, let's just say that there are plausible comebacks. I agree with the guy telling you to wrap up in your velvety SLU robe, grab a steaming latte, and head back to the barcalounger. Dr. Phil is about to begin...

Chill out dude. Your arrogance is getting the best of you. Some people think it is a good post. You don't. So be it. I understand the word hindsight, so spare me the lecture. Of course life doesn't happen in hindsight and I was hardly "whining" or bashing anybody in this post. I was trying to provide a little context and figure out how we got to this point. If what you delivered is considered a "reasonable response" you failed miserably.

Why is it pointless to take a look back at how this roster was constructed? We can't analyze it? If anything, I was cutting JC some slack by putting things in context with some of the stuff going on around the program over the previous 4-5 years.

[ACE]

Calm down, DocB. I was commenting on the timeline of recruiting over the past few years. I think it provides a decent overview of who we've recruited and when while going into potential motivations behind the specific recruitment of certain players.

I agree with the notion that you don't 'blame' anybody for recruiting certain players. Some pan out, some don't...that's the nature of college basketball. While many people are a little upset with the progression of the Sophomore class, I don't think anybody's given up on them yet. They have more than half their college basketball careers left to play...more than enough time to turn things around.

And to be fair, the thread IS entitled 'Recruiting- Hindsight' so it should be fairly apparent what it was going to be about...

Exactly! Can't believe somebody as brilliant as the Doc couldn't grasp that.

[SLU_Nick]

Right now the sophomore class looks like a complete bust.

I am actually encouraged by what I have seen out of some of the freshmen.

Roby had a 8 minute stretch against URI where he was playing some of the best D I've seen out of a Billiken. It was Josh Fisher-like. Very encouraging.

MY - a diamond. Love him.

MB and MR look exactly like Freshmen. I like their attitudes though and think they will both work very hard to get better.

Jolly - Needs to work 100% on getting his body D1- ready. Dissapointing he didnt do this at Prep school.

Gillman - What a signing from JC. How many other Freshmen centers have you seen around the COUNTRY with his skill set? Freshmen centers simply do not have the finesse that he does at 6'11. He's not a 275 lb beast 18 yo and that is good for us....because if he was, he would be at Kansas or Duke.

The lack of PG is what kills this team. Keith Carter on our roster would probably be worth 2-3 more wins so far this season.

[brianstl]

Right now the sophomore class looks like a complete bust.

I am actually encouraged by what I have seen out of some of the freshmen.

Roby had a 8 minute stretch against URI where he was playing some of the best D I've seen out of a Billiken. It was Josh Fisher-like. Very encouraging.

MY - a diamond. Love him.

MB and MR look exactly like Freshmen. I like their attitudes though and think they will both work very hard to get better.

Jolly - Needs to work 100% on getting his body D1- ready. Dissapointing he didnt do this at Prep school.

Gillman - What a signing from JC. How many other Freshmen centers have you seen around the COUNTRY with his skill set? Freshmen centers simply do not have the finesse that he does at 6'11. He's not a 275 lb beast 18 yo and that is good for us....because if he was, he would be at Kansas or Duke.

The lack of PG is what kills this team. Keith Carter on our roster would probably be worth 2-3 more wins so far this season.

Speaking of Keith Carter........

Valpo is 14-3. They are a top 100 team. Their two best players are Carter and Alec Peters. One is a kid we had and the other is a recruit we missed on.

[Clock_Tower]

Disagree, Dr. B, it was a fairly objective analysis of our recruiting since 2010. It's hard to argue with the numbers and results of RM's last two classes. None have really panned out well for the program. But let's evaluate JC's job. Granted, he was in between a rock and a hard place given the interim tag took so long to remove and had to scramble that spring. Still, we were all fairly excited about the players he delivered for the reasons Ace cited above. Sadly, this group, with the exception of AY, has to be called a disappointment to this point.

First, none proved ready enough last year to provide even a minimum of quality minutes to give our five SRs a much needed rest. That came to the forefront at the end of last year as the Five were simply worn out and a little bit nicked up after a long season. Ok, write that off as FR just not being ready. Fast forward thru to the first 14 games this year and review their progress. Let's leave out AY because he's doing about what was expected. But we really needed the other 3 to be the next man up given we have 6 FR on the roster. MC shows up on occasion, but the other two members have not shown up at all. While not ready to label them as busts, it would be hard to point to any meaningful contributions they've made this season. TL, the supposed stretch 4, has yet to hit a 3. RA looks totally lost out making mistakes that would have a HS coach pulling out his hair.

But, as stated earlier, JC needed bodies and had to recruit the SOPHs under the interim tag. Give him a pass. Bottom line, JC will be judged on the FR class, and it's way too early to pass judgement. We've seen good, bad, and some ugly from them, which is to be expected from FR who weren't 4 and 5 star recruits. By season's end we should have a much better idea if this group has the potential to lead us back to the promised land. Until then, sit back, put your robe on, and enjoy your double macchiato double Carmel lattes.

72. So are you saying JC deserves a pass with respect to his judgement in offering both RA and TL (not much time, interim tag, needed bodies -- so he shouldn't have done so) or are you giving him a pass for not developing either to date? Seems to me that both have alot of size, talent and potential, both had offers from other good programs, insiders like DocB said that RA especially looked good at the start of last year, that both had some injuries which set them back abit last year but that both are doing worse this year as compared to last year. Seems more like JC's development of them (or lack thereof) should be questioned more so than his offering of them.

[slu72]

Clock, no I'm not knocking him for bringing them to SLU. Just stating they haven't done much, if anything, since their arrival. I don't know why, because, as you state, they had other offers. He gets a pass because he had slots to fill and not a lot of time. I don't feel they were Brad type fillers, eg Obi and Dixon, because others were going after them. As for not developing them, again, I don't know why they seem to have regressed or stayed stuck in FR mode.

[kmbilliken]

Say what you want, TL is a beast! Dunk city!

http://youtu.be/PxluO9ibesI

Man, what happened to him? Whoever suggested he may need to lose weight may be right. I realize it was against high school competition, but he looked much quicker, agile and aggressive. We never see any dunks out of him now. Last year he showed post moves. Where have they gone?

[Dwayne's_World]

Man, what happened to him? Whoever suggested he may need to lose weight may be right. I realize it was against high school competition, but he looked much quicker, agile and aggressive. We never see any dunks out of him now. Last year he showed post moves. Where have they gone?

Does he ever even dunk during warmups?

[kmbilliken]

Does he ever even dunk during warmups?

No. He needs to show some life. Go full speed to the hoop. Knock a few guys over. Be Conklin-like.

[JMM28]

Speaking of Keith Carter........

Valpo is 14-3. They are a top 100 team. Their two best players are Carter and Alec Peters. One is a kid we had and the other is a recruit we missed on.

Peters would have been a great fit for a Majerus team.

Valpo has played a really week schedule though. Most of their Ws have come vs. sub 200 teams.

[brianstl]

Peters would have been a great fit for a Majerus team.

Valpo has played a really week schedule though. Most of their Ws have come vs. sub 200 teams.

Yes, their record is a little deceiving. They are a pretty good team though. Should present a good challenge to for Green Bay in the Horizon.

[Taj79]

@Pistol: Doc B? An insider? Pray tell how?

@Doc B: you took Acie to task for his post lumping it into categories like "fear, trembling, impatient whining, mounmental piles of BS," etc., etc. yet offered no logical rhetoric to counter what obviously was a deeply disturbing post that insulted your insider-intelligence. How about the illumination, the so called "plausible comebacks," that further prove the points Acie made are worthy of such condemnation. Inquiring minds would like to know. Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

[cheeseman]

@Pistol: Doc B? An insider? Pray tell how?

@Doc B: you took Acie to task for his post lumping it into categories like "fear, trembling, impatient whining, mounmental piles of BS," etc., etc. yet offered no logical rhetoric to counter what obviously was a deeply disturbing post that insulted your insider-intelligence. How about the illumination, the so called "plausible comebacks," that further prove the points Acie made are worthy of such condemnation. Inquiring minds would like to know. Smoke 'em if you got 'em.

Not to oversimplify it but JC is from Indiana and anybody from there is held in high regard by Doc B. It does no good to get overheated by what is happening - we all saw it coming but some were living in a euphoric world as evidenced by the predictions some made about this season. Those who were paying attention knew a 500 season would be tough but as I said before knowing this intellectually and actually seeing it happen are two different things. It still hurts - my only concern is just how much better will we be next year?

[Clock_Tower]

Not to oversimplify it but JC is from Indiana and anybody from there is held in high regard by Doc B. It does no good to get overheated by what is happening - we all saw it coming but some were living in a euphoric world as evidenced by the predictions some made about this season. Those who were paying attention knew a 500 season would be tough but as I said before knowing this intellectually and actually seeing it happen are two different things. It still hurts - my only concern is just how much better will we be next year?

My prediction/expectation was 18 wins. And with this schedule and the return of 6 players and 6 promising Frosh, this should not have been that tough. If we don't get 18 wins but clearly are starting to gel, then great. But this roster is essentially next year's roster and therefore I don't want this year to repeat again. Start the rebuild now!!