Recruiting - 2013

[Pistol]

Send it! Lancona was probably 8 when that happened.

[AlumniFan]

April 30th. Today's the day Djambo announces his decision...oh, nevermind...

[moytoy12]

+1.

Cheese. Yet again, believe you have nailed it. I fully agree with you. While I would not have chosen JC, I am trying to move on and get behind JC because I (like the rest of you) am a Billikens fan first and a fan of the head coach second. For those with such thin skin like Moy to take my comment about the recruits seemingly being in charge (and comparing the current situation to RM) is indeed "over the top." Thereafter, excuses by NH telling us that JC got a "late start" and that he and his staff really haven't spent anytime recruiting this year (presumably b/c he read something on BillikenReport) is offensive to JC and staff. Talk about taking shots against JC!!

Would someone clarify for the Board. I thought one of the reasons we chose JC is for continuity with recruiting. In fact, at the time of his hire, there were many reports that JC and staff had, in fact, been working on recruits for some time, that things were looking really good, that announcments will come... In fact, we did get the commitment from RA before the interim tag was removed. Was all that wrong?

I'm shocked you and Cheese agree. Contrary to what you and Cheese state, you two aren't simply asking one question. You two have been consistently negative about Crews. In fairness, the worries you and Cheese have might be validated, but let the man fail first and then feel free to criticize. None of us know what is going on with this recruiting period and no one knows exactly how RM's went.

What would be your strategy with Randy O. and Tanner L.? Give them an ultimatum? What happens under your scenario if they both say "no"?

And are you intentionally being thick about the whole late start thing? JC got a late start because RM died. This isn't brain surgery and it's something JC has basically stated a number of times.

[ACE]

Continuity in recruiting was never as issue in the hiring of JC. It was "did he want/like to recruit?" The continuity question was all over the Majerus bloodline.

roy and I echo similar thoughts on the hiring of JC and the new, five-year path forward. We also echo similar thoughts about understanding why it was done and how deserving JC is of the shot. We are both likely skeptical, but as someone else said, fans of the Bills, not necessarily of the coach, no matter who that might be. I will not condemn the man until he has a track record. And I may not condemn him if he never has a bad track record. So off we go.

JC also seems at first blush quite consistent with another Majerus tendancy --- over-inflating expectations. We all know and still hold RM's analysis of JM and his being the most likely to make an NBA roster. Now here comes JC saying he "expects two signings this week" and ... BANG, HE DOESN'T NAIL IT. We are left to waiting and you all know how uncomfortable waiting makes each and every one of us.

Majerus missed on quite a few recruits. Thompson. Cotto. Cassity (to an extent). Jordan. Smith. Reid. Carter. John. Maybe Manning. Maybe Glaze. maybe Barnett. Not all were missed for the same reasons.

I'd like to close with Lancona and Onwuasor.

RM missed as all coaches do, but who you include on that list can certainly be debated. I would not put Cassity, Reid or John on that list and not fair at this point to list any of the current players, even if it is a "maybe." Even RM's "misses" had potential - Thompson Top 150 on some lists and was offered by Alabama among other BCS schools. Cotto also had BCS interest, just seemed to be a risk for academic/cultural/language reasons. He was worth a gamble. Jordan, while he had his problems, on the court he still averaged 5 ppg as a freshman. We've had a lot worse over the years. Unlike RM, some of our previous coaches had "misses" who you just knew when they were signed had little potential to succeed - Horace, Varner, Newbourne, Simmons, Barentine, Eric Jones and there are more.

[Cowboy]

Continuity in recruiting was never as issue in the hiring of JC. It was "did he want/like to recruit?" The continuity question was all over the Majerus bloodline.

roy and I echo similar thoughts on the hiring of JC and the new, five-year path forward. We also echo similar thoughts about understanding why it was done and how deserving JC is of the shot. We are both likely skeptical, but as someone else said, fans of the Bills, not necessarily of the coach, no matter who that might be. I will not condemn the man until he has a track record. And I may not condemn him if he never has a bad track record. So off we go.

JC also seems at first blush quite consistent with another Majerus tendancy --- over-inflating expectations. We all know and still hold RM's analysis of JM and his being the most likely to make an NBA roster. Now here comes JC saying he "expects two signings this week" and ... BANG, HE DOESN'T NAIL IT. We are left to waiting and you all know how uncomfortable waiting makes each and every one of us.

Majerus missed on quite a few recruits. Thompson. Cotto. Cassity (to an extent). Jordan. Smith. Reid. Carter. John. Maybe Manning. Maybe Glaze. maybe Barnett. Not all were missed for the same reasons.

I'd like to close with Lancona and Onwuasor.

-you are one tough grader, Taj, by including players that got hurt or who could have two more seasons on the 'missed recruiting' list, imo

[ACE]

April 30th. Today's the day Djambo announces his decision...oh, nevermind...

This historic thread began because of Djambo. This was supposed to be a big day on the board.

I think the fact that we have two available scholarships at this time is the source of some of the uneasiness on the board. If Carter hadn't left OR we signed Djambo OR we signed Lancona during his visit and had just one scholarship left, I think most people would relax a bit.

I am willing to let it play out before I make a judgement about the staff's ability to recruit. At this point, Crawford and Agbeko sound very promising, but hoped to have at least one more locked up by now. There is still time. Keep working the transfer list in case our top targets don't come through.

[slufanskip]

RM missed as all coaches do, but who you include on that list can certainly be debated. I would not put Cassity, Reid or John on that list and not fair at this point to list any of the current players, even if it is a "maybe." Even RM's "misses" had potential - Thompson Top 150 on some lists and was offered by Alabama among other BCS schools. Cotto also had BCS interest, just seemed to be a risk for academic/cultural/language reasons. He was worth a gamble. Jordan, while he had his problems, on the court he still averaged 5 ppg as a freshman. We've had a lot worse over the years. Unlike RM, some of our previous coaches had "misses" who you just knew when they were signed had little potential to succeed - Horace, Varner, Newbourne, Simmons, Barentine, Eric Jones and there are more.

A miss is a miss is a miss. It's not less of a miss because others would have also missed. Cotto was a miss. Thompson was a huge miss as he couldn't even excell at Lindenwood. Releford was a miss because RM failed to see who he was and was insistent on making him someone else. Jordan was a miss as was the really skinny forward who transfered after the situation. You sign a kid to succeed in your program, in the end barring injury, he either does or you missed

[kshoe]

I'm shocked you and Cheese agree. Contrary to what you and Cheese state, you two aren't simply asking one question. You two have been consistently negative about Crews. In fairness, the worries you and Cheese have might be validated, but let the man fail first and then feel free to criticize. None of us know what is going on with this recruiting period and no one knows exactly how RM's went.

What would be your strategy with Randy O. and Tanner L.? Give them an ultimatum? What happens under your scenario if they both say "no"?

And are you intentionally being thick about the whole late start thing? JC got a late start because RM died. This isn't brain surgery and it's something JC has basically stated a number of times.

+1

I'm surprised that long-time fans such as Clock and Cheese aren't giving Crews a fair shake. Regardless of how one felt about his hiring, for better or worse he is our coach now and we should support him until he gives real reason to doubt him.

Constant comparisons to the recruiting of Sodie is about as negative a statement as one can make in the Billiken community. I'll let things play out this spring and next fall before I jump to any conclusions, good or bad!

[slufanskip]

+1

I'm surprised that long-time fans such as Clock and Cheese aren't giving Crews a fair shake. Regardless of how one felt about his hiring, for better or worse he is our coach now and we should support him until he gives real reason to doubt him.

Constant comparisons to the recruiting of Sodie is about as negative a statement as one can make in the Billiken community. I'll let things play out this spring and next fall before I jump to any conclusions, good or bad!

+2

He earned the opportunity and deserves a fair shake at success. However, if you express your concerns now, you'll be able to say I told you so later

[kshoe]

+2

He earned the opportunity and deserves a fair shake at success. However, if you express your concerns now, you'll be able to say I told you so later

Fair enough. Let the record forever show that Cheese and Clock (along with just about everyone else) have concerns about Crews' recruiting abilities.

[ACE]

A miss is a miss is a miss. It's not less of a miss because others would have also missed. Cotto was a miss. Thompson was a huge miss as he couldn't even excell at Lindenwood. Releford was a miss because RM failed to see who he was and was insistent on making him someone else. Jordan was a miss as was the really skinny forward who transfered after the situation. You sign a kid to succeed in your program, in the end barring injury, he either does or you missed

Femi John and Jeff Reid are NOT misses.

Every coach has misses, including RM. It's going to happen and I said as much. Recruiting is an inexact science. I don't think all misses are created equal. Was Willie Reed a miss? Some have labeled him as such. I think it was worth the risk because he had potential. He could actually play a little bit. Most of our previous coaches had some players (I listed them) who based on their HS or juco careers you were quite certain they were going to suck. RM's had very few of those types of misses. Yes, a miss is a miss, but I don't think they are all created equal when judging recruiting.

[ACE]

+1

I'm surprised that long-time fans such as Clock and Cheese aren't giving Crews a fair shake. Regardless of how one felt about his hiring, for better or worse he is our coach now and we should support him until he gives real reason to doubt him.

Constant comparisons to the recruiting of Sodie is about as negative a statement as one can make in the Billiken community. I'll let things play out this spring and next fall before I jump to any conclusions, good or bad!

My thoughts exactly.

[slufanskip]

Femi John and Jeff Reid are NOT misses.

Every coach has misses, including RM. It's going to happen and I said as much. Recruiting is an inexact science. I don't think all misses are created equal. Was Willie Reed a miss? Some have labeled him as such. I think it was worth the risk because he had potential. He could actually play a little bit. Most of our previous coaches had some players (I listed them) who based on their HS or juco careers you were quite certain they were going to suck. RM's had very few of those types of misses. Yes, a miss is a miss, but I don't think they are all created equal when judging recruiting.

Are you having a comprehension issue? "barring injury"

Saying a guy was worth the risk isn't relevent to whether or not he was a miss. Ricky Cranford was a miss.

[slufanskip]

Fair enough. Let the record forever show that Cheese and Clock (along with just about everyone else) have concerns about Crews' recruiting abilities.

I also have concerns and I wish to retain the right to gloat later if the need arises

[brianstl]

doesnt help that larry doesnt have the best of reputations. i.e. who knows what lengths he might go to "win".

Larry was never accused of cheating to win.

[jbizzle09]

The previous three seasons, we went into May with scholarships still left to fill. The last two seasons, we went into June with open scholarships. Jett and Barnett came aboard in May 2010. Glaze didn't sign until June 2011. Emmanuel Tselentakis didn't commit until July 2011. McBroom wasn't a done deal until June 2012. It wasn't like Majerus had everything finalized by the beginning of the spring signing period. And, yes, most of those signings can be linked to transfers that occurred that same spring (Jordan, Smif, Salecich, Tselentakis), but those transfers took place pretty much right after the season ended. Majerus still took some time to get players signed, especially the last two seasons.

Right now, we can't judge Crews on this recruiting period because it isn't over yet. And it seems a bit silly to wonder if he is waiting around too long on certain recruits to make a decision. It isn't like he is a long-shot on some 4-5* recruits, hoping for the lottery to hit. He is waiting a reasonable amount of time on decent recruits who seem rather interested, who could make an impact down the road, to make their final decisions. Should he just tell them 'Fuok off! Jim Crews don't wait for nobody! Either you sh!t or get off the pot, jagoff, or I'm moving on!' Not sure that is the best strategy. Probably better to let these two (Lancona and Randy O.) know that they are the priorities right now. Considering that there is a decent chance both can be landed and become good players on this team down the road, I think it is an appropriate recruiting strategy.

And, let's face it, moving on to other decent D-1 recruits right now that you haven't really considered prior is not a really good move. To come in really late and try to schmooze a kid into coming to SLU, considering he has numerous other schools interested, is just a mostly futile effort, with work being done for naught. It seems to me that Jolly and Strawberry are the backup plans to the better two, and that Crews can easily land them if he chooses to. Isn't it better to wait a little while on players that may have a bigger impact, or is it just better to get players to sign quickly so you are done with the recruiting period?

[Cowboy]

The previous three seasons, we went into May with scholarships still left to fill. The last two seasons, we went into June with open scholarships. Jett and Barnett came aboard in May 2010. Glaze didn't sign until June 2011. Emmanuel Tselentakis didn't commit until July 2011. McBroom wasn't a done deal until June 2012. It wasn't like Majerus had everything finalized by the beginning of the spring signing period. And, yes, most of those signings can be linked to transfers that occurred that same spring (Jordan, Smif, Salecich, Tselentakis), but those transfers took place pretty much right after the season ended. Majerus still took some time to get players signed, especially the last two seasons.

Right now, we can't judge Crews on this recruiting period because it isn't over yet. And it seems a bit silly to wonder if he is waiting around too long on certain recruits to make a decision. It isn't like he is a long-shot on some 4-5* recruits, hoping for the lottery to hit. He is waiting a reasonable amount of time on decent recruits who seem rather interested, who could make an impact down the road, to make their final decisions. Should he just tell them 'Fuok off! Jim Crews don't wait for nobody! Either you sh!t or get off the pot, jagoff, or I'm moving on!' Not sure that is the best strategy. Probably better to let these two (Lancona and Randy O.) know that they are the priorities right now. Considering that there is a decent chance both can be landed and become good players on this team down the road, I think it is an appropriate recruiting strategy.

And, let's face it, moving on to other decent D-1 recruits right now that you haven't really considered prior is not a really good move. To come in really late and try to schmooze a kid into coming to SLU, considering he has numerous other schools interested, is just a mostly futile effort, with work being done for naught. It seems to me that Jolly and Strawberry are the backup plans to the better two, and that Crews can easily land them if he chooses to. Isn't it better to wait a little while on players that may have a bigger impact, or is it just better to get players to sign quickly so you are done with the recruiting period?

-some think it best to complain

[Taj79]

@ACE/Cowboy -- tough grader? Okay, I can accept that. But still, a miss is a miss, as skip notes. There are different reasons to miss, just as there are to hit. Conklin could've been in the same category as Cassity, save for his final 1 or 1.5 years. So it goes. Once I start down the path of grading on a curve, it could go all over the place. So I just go on the Pass/Fail or Hit/Miss method.

Conklin would be a miss, until he gets to his junior year. Reed would be a hit, until he flunks out of school. Reid and John are complete misses, but not for the same reason Smif or Jordan are. Manning has been a huge miss to date, not as such for Glaze. But overall, both are trending to overall failing grades in my book.

I'm just calling them as I see them right now. On a separate note, Harrelson was a total all around miss --- one lucky year in Kentucky does not erase the overall body of work in my book. Some guys you have to give collegiate incompletes to --- so maybe John and Reid go there. But so too does Hughes, Beal, Noel and some of these other guys going one and done the usual NBA route.

I for one, don't count Larry the Legend in my SLU records w/o the one-and-done caveat. He didn't graduate .. although I guess neither did Douglas and some others. But they played four years so they count in my book. Just a strange little perk of mine.

[ACE]

Are you having a comprehension issue? "barring injury"

Saying a guy was worth the risk isn't relevent to whether or not he was a miss. Ricky Cranford was a miss.

Chill out. I was responding to Taj including John and Reid as "misses." Sounds like you think he was off on that point, so even you differentiate some among the "misses."

We simply view it differently. If you want to take the simple a "miss is a miss" approach when viewing recruiting fine. I prefer to look at it in a more nuanced way. You bring up Ricky Cranford. Good ecample. IMO, he had some ability and actually turned out to be a decent player at Northeastern. The kid had some talent. I can understand Spoon offering that kid. What is more difficult to understand is why Spoon would offer guys like Eric Jones, Barentine and Larry Simmons. IMO, those are BIG misses because they never really made any sense in the first place. It was a long time ago, but if I recall those guys were considered borderline D1 players. Cranford on the other hand, had a prolific high school career. Yes, you could lump them all together as all misses, but in the example I cite, I can at least understand the thought process in offering Cranford. It would be great if we could all look into a crystal ball and know for certain how a career is going to turn out, but you can't. A Ricky Cranford at least had the potential to be a good player based on ability and he wound up being I believe a second team all conference. The other guys I mentioned earlier seemingly had little to no hope of being players productive based on their limited abiliity.

[slufanskip]

Chill out. I was responding to Taj including John and Reid as "misses." Sounds like you think he was off on that point, so even you differentiate some among the "misses."

We simply view it differently. If you want to take the simple a "miss is a miss" approach when viewing recruiting fine. I prefer to look at it in a more nuanced way. You bring up Ricky Cranford. Good ecample. IMO, he had some ability and actually turned out to be a decent player at Northeastern. The kid had some talent. I can understand Spoon offering that kid. What is more difficult to understand is why Spoon would offer guys like Eric Jones, Barentine and Larry Simmons. IMO, those are BIG misses because they never really made any sense in the first place. It was a long time ago, but if I recall those guys were considered borderline D1 players. Cranford on the other hand, had a prolific high school career. Yes, you could lump them all together as all misses, but in the example I cite, I can at least understand the thought process in offering Cranford. It would be great if we could all look into a crystal ball and know for certain how a career is going to turn out, but you can't. A Ricky Cranford at least had the potential to be a good player based on ability and he wound up being I believe a second team all conference. The other guys I mentioned earlier seemingly had little to no hope of being players productive based on their limited abiliity.

I get what you're saying. So if a coach only offers 3 stars or better he'll really never have a miss because others missed also.

Injury has to be taken into account. I'm shocked anyone would count Femi John as a miss. However, in your scenario if he wasn't recruited by other schools at our level shouldn't it be a miss as he was probably never going to be more than a practice player anyway.

I don't see how it matters when judging whether a recruit was a hit or a miss what others thought. If Jordan Strawberry comes and ends up starting and playing well for 2-3 years he's a hit despite the fact he isn't highly recruited. If Reggie Agbeko doesn't play much and leaves in a year he was a miss.

It's silly for any of us to think we can judge a player on being a hit or miss before his career at SLU is over unless we're overestimating our ability to judge D1 talent. It appears as if you can predetermine who actually has D1 talent and who doesn't. Who says Ricky Cranford had the potential and Horace Dixon didn't? Ricky Cranford in the end did not have the talent to be a good player at SLU. He had the talent to be a good player at a lower level school regardless of what anyone thought during his recruiting

It seems you want to judge a hit or miss by your perception of the validity of the offer not the actual results of the signing

[Box and Won]

Gotdamn, we need a commitment from somebody soon.

[billiken_roy]

Gotdamn, we need a commitment from somebody soon.

you got that right. i just found myself nodding to both ace and skip's posts.

[JettFlight5]

Larry was never accused of cheating to win.

Doesn't matter if he was. We had the discussion before about the specter of sanctions involving Chievous and Tennessee post-Pearl.

[billiken_roy]

Larry was never accused of cheating to win.

scum is scum

[TheA_Bomb]

The A Bomb: I'm releasing one coach from criticism RM, BS, or JC

Board Morons: RM, RM, RM

The A Bomb: But what about JC the new Head Coach?

Board Morons: Nail him, Criticize him

The A Bomb: He's new and already landed 2 recruits what did he do?

Board Morons: Criticize him, criticize him, criticize him

The A Bomb: OK but I wash my hands of it.