BE7 Future Conference

[slu72]

My guess is if STL is in the mix, so's Creighton and not GM. Rounds out the geographics.

[Basketbill]

George Mason or an additional eastern school makes sense. That leaves a Midwestern divison of Butler, Xavier Dayton, SLU, DePaul and Marquette.

[kshoe]

The central purposed of the article is to discuss which league will retain the Big East name but there is this blurb:

A Post source said though St. Mary’s and Gonzaga are attractive candidates, the travel costs to fly non-revenue teams cross-country will almost surely make adding them prohibitive. The source said Butler, Dayton, George Mason, St. Louis and Xavier are the top five options as the league seeks to transform into an elite, 12-team, hoops conference.

This is the first time I have heard George Mason so just like with every other bit of info these reporters are getting from their "sources" we need to take it with a grain of salt but we all like to see SLU consistently popping up as a member of the new league

http://www.nypost.co...7CNrVQYweK2jPQK

George Mason (or any East Coast school for that matter) makes some sense as a league of 12 would ideally be split into a western and eastern division. With Marq and Depaul already there, only 4 can join the West and there are 5 schools seemingly in the running (SLU, X, Butler, Creighton and Dayton). The only way all 5 find a bid is if Dayton or X join the eastern division.

[slu72]

I'm guessing they'd put X in the East. Right now the balance of power would be in the West.

[bonwich]

Lots of weird, vague information being posted in this thread. First and foremost, everyone please put the name Paul Reinert into the board spellcheck.

Reinert was president from 1949-1972 and then chancellor, which was his fundraising role. O'Connell succeeded him, followed for 2 years by Father Drummond, who was perhaps the "very old" person confused in a prior post. Then Father Fitzgerald followed by Biondi.

Of all of them, Reinert and Biondi were the ones who made significant marks, although Fitzgerald shored up the finances and allowed Biondi to pilot a sound if not terribly attractive ship. The difference was style: Reinert gave us the fabled Chaifetz episode and was pretty universally loved; I doubt anyone would say that about Biondi. (O'Connell, by the way, was very well-liked by the students, and we see where that went in both the short and long terms.)

Another small irony was that Reinert was responsible for laicizing the Board of Trustees. I'm reasonably sure his intent was not to make it the hypersecret rubber-stamp board that it eventually evolved into.

I also finally found at least one article that completely debunks the whole "move to West County" thing about Reinert -- and I continue to contend quite strongly that Biondi never once has had the opportunity to do so other than using it as a bluff.

[brianstl]

I'm guessing they'd put X in the East. Right now the balance of power would be in the West.

I think that holds appeal for 4 of the current BE7. Plus, this is college basketball and things can change with a couple of good recruiting classes.

[SLU7881]

West--St Mary's, Gonzaga, Creighton, St. Louis

Midwest--X, Dayton, Butler, DePaul, Marquette

East-- Georgetown, Providence, St. John’s, Seton Hall, Villanova

I know its not 12 but what a conference. Plus it will get more national recognition given its breadth

[MB73]

Alumin fan, what? I clarified for you, so you could understand. You finally do, maybe.

OK, Bonwitch, Bonwhatever. I respect your info, for sure, you are an insider, know what went on...

Either way, though, by the time Biondi took over, the inner city, the world had changed, and there was need for nicer, safer inner city campuses. My WIFE would have figured that out for Chrissake. Good for Biondi. He was there. But lets not give him a super legacy tag for putting in lawns and benches and doing some upgrades.

Like taking credit for... oh, never mind.

[Duff Man]

If it's BE7+ X, Butler, Dayton, Creighton, and SLU, I would expect Marquette to be the 6th team in the East (i.e. 'traditional') division rather than the retro-MCC West.

A major objective is to get as many nationally televised conferences games as possible, and the key element is highlighting traditional rivalries and establishing new ones.

The 5 original BE programs surely prefer Marquette to Xavier or any other new addition. Marquette has the brand of a successful BIg East program and in selling the TV rights, you're going to want as many premium 'traditional' Big East matchups as possible.

Additionally, you want to maximize the number of Xavier's match-ups against their natural rivals. They're not going to take Dayton and then split them up from Xavier.

[cheeseman]

Thanks for posting the article info - I wonder why VCU is not considered over George Mason? I still think that Creighton is not the lock everybody thinks - they may get an invite but I think the Omaha thing is a problem. I also still think Dayton is a question - they are not needed for the Ohio market if X joins. I understand the - Conf will not have their own TV network - but the conf should not want to relegate itself to small markets to start with - they could easily see that in a bigger market the team their could become good and take over.

[willie]

Lots of weird, vague information being posted in this thread. First and foremost, everyone please put the name Paul Reinert into the board spellcheck.

Reinert was president from 1949-1972 and then chancellor, which was his fundraising role. O'Connell succeeded him, followed for 2 years by Father Drummond, who was perhaps the "very old" person confused in a prior post. Then Father Fitzgerald followed by Biondi.

Of all of them, Reinert and Biondi were the ones who made significant marks, although Fitzgerald shored up the finances and allowed Biondi to pilot a sound if not terribly attractive ship. The difference was style: Reinert gave us the fabled Chaifetz episode and was pretty universally loved; I doubt anyone would say that about Biondi. (O'Connell, by the way, was very well-liked by the students, and we see where that went in both the short and long terms.)

Another small irony was that Reinert was responsible for laicizing the Board of Trustees. I'm reasonably sure his intent was not to make it the hypersecret rubber-stamp board that it eventually evolved into.

I also finally found at least one article that completely debunks the whole "move to West County" thing about Reinert -- and I continue to contend quite strongly that Biondi never once has had the opportunity to do so other than using it as a bluff.

Fr.Fitz saved the university from going broke. This was the era of 18% short term rates. The university was a heavy short term borrower and was quickly going broke. Fitzgerald came in and floated long term bonds and got off the negative cash flow.

[Duff Man]

Thanks for posting the article info - I wonder why VCU is not considered over George Mason? I still think that Creighton is not the lock everybody thinks - they may get an invite but I think the Omaha thing is a problem. I also still think Dayton is a question - they are not needed for the Ohio market if X joins. I understand the - Conf will not have their own TV network - but the conf should not want to relegate itself to small markets to start with - they could easily see that in a bigger market the team their could become good and take over.

Creighton was 6th in attendance last year averaging 16,665. Dayton ranked 28th averaging 12,154. These programs dominate their smaller markets and don't have to compete against pro sports locally. They might not have the upside of bigger media markets, but they do offer stability and both are a safe bet to pull their weight when it comes to non-conference RPI, even in their rebuilding seasons.

I know Brian Gregory is long gone - and this phenomenon was primarily true under his tenure - but what conference wouldn't want a program that consistently builds an NCAA caliber non-conference resume then under-performs in conference play?

[bonwich]

Alumin fan, what? I clarified for you, so you could understand. You finally do, maybe.

OK, Bonwitch, Bonwhatever. I respect your info, for sure, you are an insider, know what went on...

Either way, though, by the time Biondi took over, the inner city, the world had changed, and there was need for nicer, safer inner city campuses. My WIFE would have figured that out for Chrissake. Good for Biondi. He was there. But lets not give him a super legacy tag for putting in lawns and benches and doing some upgrades.

Like taking credit for... oh, never mind.

I actually wasn't disagreeing with you -- just providing a much deeper level of context.

I think Biondi is clothed in many layers of gray. Yes, he took a fairly obvious path for an urban university -- but he pulled it off where others hadn't. He consolidated power and fundraising so he could move decisively, but it also meant he didn't have to deal with little details like whether anyone thought he was destroying many elements of St. Louis' urban fabric at the same time he was exponentially improving the campus environment. (I've been reading "Bitter Brew," the A-B story, and there are more than a few parallels between Biondi and Gussie Busch in the '60s and '70s.)

Would another president also have made many of the same moves if provided the same starting point? Maybe. But give Father Biondi tons of credit for articulating a consistent vision and then pulling it off. The issue now is whether it's gotten critical that someone else -- perhaps in more of a Paul Reinert personality -- needs to come in an shepherd the U. to its next level.

[willie]

The Shoe boys just gave me "bitter brew" for Christmas. Eager to read.

[MusicCityBilliken]

(O'Connell, by the way, was very well-liked by the students, and we see where that went in both the short and long terms.)

I had Fr O'Connell for a psychology class, an outstanding professor, probably one of my favorites. Now as a university president, he was clueless.

I would count ole Fr Bondi out in these negotiations just yet. During his tenure we got out of the old MCC and put us in the Great Midwest (if that one only survived). When that happened XU (a superior basketball program) was left behind and both UD and SLU got in. When the Great Midwest incorporated some of the Metro teams and formed CUSA, UD was left in the cold. So you never know with these negotiations.

I do have give Fr Bondi credit in putting us in the A10. He could just as easily given in to the misinformed and placed us in the MVC. Being in the A10, we are in a much better position for this new conference. Well, this is the 'big enchilada' or Holy Grail, lets do what it takes to get in.

[MB73]

I actually wasn't disagreeing with you -- just providing a much deeper level of context.

I think Biondi is clothed in many layers of gray. Yes, he took a fairly obvious path for an urban university -- but he pulled it off where others hadn't. He consolidated power and fundraising so he could move decisively, but it also meant he didn't have to deal with little details like whether anyone thought he was destroying many elements of St. Louis' urban fabric at the same time he was exponentially improving the campus environment. (I've been reading "Bitter Brew," the A-B story, and there are more than a few parallels between Biondi and Gussie Busch in the '60s and '70s.)

Would another president also have made many of the same moves if provided the same starting point? Maybe. But give Father Biondi tons of credit for articulating a consistent vision and then pulling it off. The issue now is whether it's gotten critical that someone else -- perhaps in more of a Paul Reinert personality -- needs to come in an shepherd the U. to its next level.

Fair enough, coming from you...

[cgeldmacher]

_{This article cites Peter Thamel of Sports Illustrated as its source saying that Xavier and Dayton are locks and that Dayton and Creighton are next in line. Thamel says that the 12th spot is "up for grabs," but that "Saint Louis would be the favorite for the final spot."}

_{http://www.sbnation.com/college-basketball/2012/12/22/3795498/catholic-7-league-xavier-butler-creighton-dayton}

_{I'm not all that familiar with Peter Thamel, so I don't know if he has credible information or if he is just providing an educated prediction.}

[Aquinas]

The new Beast has an opportunity to fix the east and west balance that was missing in the old Big East and the current A10. The lack of balance has caused all Midwest schools to do most of the travel and it affects all sports. Bottom line is improved with increased revenue or reduced expenditures. Reducing the travel costs for all sports improves the financial bottom line. Given all of the attention Midwest schools are receiving in expansion discussions, it certainly appears that the new Beast is looking for balance, to bring a reduction to travel fatigue and costs.

As discussed to the point of exhaustion, it is easy to get to 7 mid-west schools. I suspect Dayton and Creighton are the last 2 in. While Creighton holds a number of advantages over Dayton, I suspect basketball history with other Catholic schools in this proposed western division will carry a lot of weight.

I don’t see any way that any school further west than Creighton gets because the travel would be crazy.

The big question is what east team(s) will be added. Ironically while it is easy to pick the additional schools in the Midwest, there are no clear school(s) to add in the east. Each one of the Midwest teams being talked about raises the new Beast power rating. However only VCU would do that in the east, but it is a large public school. Other east schools are in the same city or area of an existing member, or the team would bring down the new conference power rating. At this point, the east division will be the weak division coming out of the starting gate.

I suspect travel sanity is something all of the schools are looking for, so a balance of East and Midwest teams will prevail. Playing home and away in division and once a year each team in the other division makes a lot of sense.

[IndyDawg]

Thanks for posting the article info - I wonder why VCU is not considered over George Mason? I still think that Creighton is not the lock everybody thinks - they may get an invite but I think the Omaha thing is a problem. I also still think Dayton is a question - they are not needed for the Ohio market if X joins. I understand the - Conf will not have their own TV network - but the conf should not want to relegate itself to small markets to start with - they could easily see that in a bigger market the team their could become good and take over.

Probably because the NY Post has been contradicted on nearly everything they have added to this whole discussion. I'm sure that they are incorrect once again. There's 0% chance of George Mason getting an invite before VCU and VCU isn't even likely. (They are the geniuses that randomly inserted Duquense a couple weeks ago)

Given all that is out there, I'd be shocked if its anything other than Xavier, Butler, Creighton, St Louis, Dayton if they go to 12 immediately. (There still seems to be a strong pull for 10 or at least starting there though, in places)

[brownwolves]

Hate to see you guys go. I always penciled in a "W" when we are going to play you.

East coast and West coast look at St Louis is like the Red headed Step-child. That's why you wont go BE7

Maybe they could have a Large Catholic East, Central and West. With SLU, X, Marq, DePaul etc in the Central.

[GOSLU68]

Is the NCAA rule allowing these seven teams to keep the big east name because they are 70% of the founders?

If that is the case I see no reason they would want to dilute their founders status by changing things by starting a new league with more than 10 teams.

[OkieBilliken]

Hate to see you guys go. I always penciled in a "W" when we are going to play you.

East coast and West coast look at St Louis is like the Red headed Step-child. That's why you wont go BE7

Maybe they could have a Large Catholic East, Central and West. With SLU, X, Marq, DePaul etc in the Central.

If you guys dont get selected in the BE7, will you just quit like your team usually does???? I will just pencil that in.

http://a.espncdn.com/ncb/columns/bilas_jay/1518727.html

[kshoe]

Is the NCAA rule allowing these seven teams to keep the big east name because they are 70% of the founders?

If that is the case I see no reason they would want to dilute their founders status by changing things by starting a new league with more than 10 teams.

Depaul and Marquette didn't found the Big East. It's not an NCAA rule, rather a bylaw written into the Big East charter that allows a more than 2/3 majority to dissolve the league if they desire. That being said, its not certain they will be able to keep the name and there are ongoing negotiations as to who will keep it and how much it is worth to do so. There are many complexities to the negotiations but dissolving the league is unlikely because if they did that they may have to forgo some of the withdrawal fees that the ACC bounds schools have to pay. Rather, they are better off negotiating with the other 3 schools and coming to a mutual resolution on the name and $$$.

I don't see how the unique circumstance of them have a 2/3 majority at this point would at all factor into the size of the league going forward.

[GOSLU68]

kshoe thanks, I did not mean to imply the seven were all founders but thought I read somewhere if they had 70% they had ongoing control. I still may not be saying it correctly. I was really looking for an answer as to why some felt they

would only go with 10 teams initially when we would be better off if they took 12.

I think two divisions of 6 would be more updated like the Big 10 with how many teams-or the Big 8, etc.

[kshoe]

kshoe thanks, I did not mean to imply the seven were all founders but thought I read somewhere if they had 70% they had ongoing control. I still may not be saying it correctly. I was really looking for an answer as to why some felt they

would only go with 10 teams initially when we would be better off if they took 12.

I think two divisions of 6 would be more updated like the Big 10 with how many teams-or the Big 8, etc.

I struggle with this one as well. Particularly the concept of let's go to 10 and then move to 12 shortly thereafter. Why make the other 2 schools wait and suffer through those years.

To me the only reason to only go to 10 is if the t.v. contract offers nothing more for 12 teams than it does 10, thus the total revenue has to get divided by 12 instead of 10. I personally don't think that will be the case as there will be more inventory and SLU/Creighton/Dayton bring as much to the table as any in the lower half of the BE7 and t.v. rights will increase accordingly (maybe not enough to exactly offset the extra two mouths but enough to make it negligible).

The other reason I've heard is that 10 teams allows for teams to play everyone twice in an 18 game schedule. The problem with that is that it actually makes travel worse than a 12 team league with divisions where you only play the other division once. If you assume that travel between the East and West is "problematic" each team will have 5 "problematic" trips with a 10 team league but only 3 in the 12 team league. Again, 12 makes more sense to me.