Thoughts from Atlantic City

[Billi from Philly]

Having been there, this is not hate, because we've accomplished so much or that they're worried about us. It's more like they wish they never knew us.

You are definitely right on the fans....the problem was we all weren't sitting in the same section...I brought five with me, so between us,we're pushing the 11 fan forecast right there....there was somw razzing from other fans, but nothing outrageous...what I heard from a Rhody fan was that they were not so crazy about a new team that was going to contend in what had been a St Joe's,Temple, Xavier, Dayton stronghold for years....I was glad to be there and hope next year we can use the board to rally a group of us to go and take another step in letting people know that they will have to deal with SLU as a force in the league

[kmbilliken]

If animosity in a conference mattered the SEC would not be a conference at all. There is some out and out hatred in that conference. My Uncle will not watch Forest Gump because he played for Bammer. That is a minor piece of hate.

Also our coach has been highly critical of SLU in the conference lately so of course there is some distaste. I don't care. When we start winning it will increase and that will start next year.

Furthermore, this is so tiring a subject. SLU just paid to get out of CUSA we aren't going to pay to get out of the A10 in just a few years. The conference jumping is expensive.

I guess it would be really tough for SLU in the NCAA too. We will probably be up against schools with much larger fan bases and therefore, so many more fans at all the games. Maybe we should look at that NAIA or DIII where our fan base will be comparable.

In 02 I went to the CUSA tourney in Cincy. It is a 4 hr. drive from STL. It was a home game for most of the teams there from Cincy and UofL. No one had any respect for SLU. Fans of other teams ganged up on us and we only had about 22 fans there. Oh yeah and SLU choked in the first game. Sound familiar?

We paid to get out of CUSA??? I thought we were shown the door along with Charlotte because we were nonfootball schools.

[MB73]

When you look at overall history, non-conference matchups, name coaches, NCAA Tournament records, and number of alumni in the NBA, there's no comparison. The Atlantic 10 is head-and-shoulders above the Missouri Valley. I know it's a point of regional pride, but the Missouri Valley can't hold the A-10's jock.

Head and shoulders? No way. Debateable, maybe.

Not if you go back 7 yrs or so (that is the appropriate sample*, since current A-10 alignment with SLU).

RPI is equal, MVC wins some yrs, A-10 others. Look it up, I have.

In mid major land, coaches that do well leave to bigger programs, then their former teams slip dramatically.

A-10 has more NCAA bids over last 7 yrs but has 4 more teams, 14-10.

This yr A-10 should get 3 NCAA to one for MVC (TBD later today) and RPI is better. Wow.

Also, another perspective, this yr MVC has 3 ca-ca teams, A-10 has 6.

(*Hell, if you go back further, then how far back? Do you include the MVC Cincinnati Bearcats 2 NCAA Championships, etc, etc?)

[MusicCityBilliken]

For the Atlantic 10, I think Atlantic City is a great venue. I am not thrilled about the move to Friday - Sunday, but the crowds were larger this year than in years past...so I may have to swallow that. (I bet Rhode Island would not have been as good at the press if they played the day before)

You are right, the advantage of being in the top 4 is gone if your opponent had 2 days off.

[MusicCityBilliken]

We paid to get out of CUSA??? I thought we were shown the door along with Charlotte because we were nonfootball schools.

I also thought that the non-football schools> Charlotte, Marquette, Depaul & us had been let go with no penalty. Now maybe Louisville and Cincy had to pay something being that they have D1 level football.

[billiken_roy]

Head and shoulders? No way. Debateable, maybe.

Not if you go back 7 yrs or so (that is the appropriate sample*, since current A-10 alignment with SLU).

RPI is equal, MVC wins some yrs, A-10 others. Look it up, I have.

In mid major land, coaches that do well leave to bigger programs, then their former teams slip dramatically.

A-10 has more NCAA bids over last 7 yrs but has 4 more teams, 14-10.

This yr A-10 should get 3 NCAA to one for MVC (TBD later today) and RPI is better. Wow.

Also, another perspective, this yr MVC has 3 ca-ca teams, A-10 has 6.

(*Hell, if you go back further, then how far back? Do you include the MVC Cincinnati Bearcats 2 NCAA Championships, etc, etc?)

the extra teams is not an advantage. the fordhams or the st bonnies in the past have only held the conference back and hurt their rpi and overall national perception.

[MB73]

the extra teams is not an advantage. the fordhams or the st bonnies in the past have only held the conference back and hurt their rpi and overall national perception.

Yes, it is an advantage, you have more opportunity to get some teams that improve when others decline.

St Joes is one of the 6 lousy teams now but was pretty strong just 2-3 yrs ago; same with George Washington.

SLU, the other way, was so-so to mediocre now is a factor, and Richmond has emerged from medicority a few yrs ago.

[courtside]

I don't want to discuss the game with this post. As we all know the Billikens got smothered by the Rams. Therefore, I won't talk about it, but rather use this thread to talk about my experience attending the Atlantic 10 Tournament this Friday.

For all the naysayers that think SLU should never join the Missouri Valley for fear of downgrading our level of competition, I say this: Attend a game at the conference tournament in Atlantic City. Before attending the Billiken-Ram game, I generally agreed with SLU's current conference affiliation with the Atlantic 10. However, now I'm convinced that SLU is not in the right conference. I will pinpoint three points I found most relevant:

1) The Crowd. I counted 11 Billiken supporters (not including the contingent of parents sitting behind the bench) as I walked through Boardwalk Hall. For the 4th seed in the tournament with an outside chance of an NCAA berth, this indicates that the distance is just too far. When the average student doesn't have a realistic opportunity to attend the conference tournament (keep in mind SLU is on Spring Break), that is a problem and enforces the idea that our university is playing in the wrong conference. Not surprisingly, it was basically a home game for the Rams. Unless SLU can send a couple bus loads of students to Atlantic City next year, our Billikens are fighting a losing battle. Teams like Temple, Rhode Island, Dayton, and even St. Bonaventure had sizable cheering sections. We will never have a chance to win the A-10 conference tournament by playing against three hostile crowds in as many days. It's simply not realistic, no matter the quality of our team.

2) Animosity directed at SLU. I overheard numerous conversations (more than six) belittling and mocking SLU. Whether it's Majerus' large personality or geographic location, it became obvious not many opposing fans like or respected the Billikens. As I recall, SLU joined the A-10 because Father Biondi wanted to establish a presence in the Northeast. However, my experience indicates that these snobby East Coast types want nothing to do with SLU. Whether the fans were cheering for Xavier, Dayton, Charlotte, or Rhode Island, they seemed weary of SLU's affiliation with the Atlantic 10. Hell, I even overheard a couple of Bonnie fans making fun of SLU.

3) Officiating. I know it's the easiest excuse following a loss and I'm not saying we should have won the game, because in all honesty we should have lost. We played absolutely terrible basketball. With that said, the officiating at SLU games this year has been atrocious and sadly continued with the game this Friday. For some reason, there is an anti-SLU bias in the A-10, which includes the fans and the referees. Did anyone watch the game on television? Did you see some of the calls? Questionable call after questionable call was made against SLU. A few Temple fans I was sitting next to were originally casually pulling for Rhode Island, but quickly switched to our side after witnessing the horrendous officiating against SLU began cheering if they had attended our university. They were (and myself included) along with several obnoxious Ram fans (they couldn't even complain when a Billiken drew a foul) were suspended in disbelief at the nature of the calls being made (Kwamain's 'charge', Ellis getting hacked on a 3-point attempt, etc.).

After speaking to an assistant coach in the airport, my thoughts about the tournement were reinforced. He described the A-10 Tournament as 'brutal' for SLU. Furthermore, he explained the nature of the tournament experience as this: "SLU is essentially playing a road game, every game in this tournament. Expecting to win three straight road games in this league is too much to simply expect. This conference is too good." In addition, he stated the team needed four commercial flights to get back to campus. If someone who was watching or attending the game would please comment and add their experiences upon my reflections that would be much appreciated. Please keep in mind that this thread is not simply senseless rants following a tough loss. I have stewed these thoughts for over a day and would like to hear from others.

So is the solution to see if Missouri Bap, Fontbonne, Wash U, Maryville, Harris Stowe, UMSL, etc...will play in a league with SLU.

Perhaps the MCC high school Catholic League? Sometimes the answers are inward Steve. SLU has made some progress, but it has a long way to go to have a serious commitment to a successful men's hoops program. I find it interesting that last week the NY Times did a piece highlighting that Marquette has the largest hoops budget in the Big East Conference. There aren't a lot of complaints of having to travel to the Garden or how many East Coast alums can make it to Mid-Town Manhattan. That budget certainly hasn't hurt the fact that only one other Big East team besides Marquette has finished in the top 5 in the league every year since Marquette joined.

Officiating? Have you seen Jim Burr and the like ref games?

Dislike? Plenty of that going on in that league for various teams.

[moytoy12]

Head and shoulders? No way. Debateable, maybe.

Not if you go back 7 yrs or so (that is the appropriate sample*, since current A-10 alignment with SLU).

RPI is equal, MVC wins some yrs, A-10 others. Look it up, I have.

In mid major land, coaches that do well leave to bigger programs, then their former teams slip dramatically.

A-10 has more NCAA bids over last 7 yrs but has 4 more teams, 14-10.

This yr A-10 should get 3 NCAA to one for MVC (TBD later today) and RPI is better. Wow.

Also, another perspective, this yr MVC has 3 ca-ca teams, A-10 has 6.

(*Hell, if you go back further, then how far back? Do you include the MVC Cincinnati Bearcats 2 NCAA Championships, etc, etc?)

7 years? lol. How convenient.

Yes, the A-10 is historically head and shoulders above the MVC. It's not debatable.

[p diddy]

The A-10 is getting ready to have two at-large teams for the third consecutive years. No other non-BCS league has been able to do that. 2005-07 were down years for the leauge and they still got an at-large bid. Even at the league's darkest hour, the A-10 has never been relegated to one bid with 25 and 26-victory teams having no shot at the NCAA. It wasn't that long ago that we had two elite eight teams and the No. 1 team in the country. There was an Elite eight team just two years ago.

BTW. The first team A-10 team has no seniors on it for the first time in league history. Temple, Rich and X will be loaded once again next year, so they will set the pace again with us looking to move up in the mix. Don't expect any drop-off in the league any time soon.

bad boyz for life

[bonwich]

In 02 I went to the CUSA tourney in Cincy. It is a 4 hr. drive from STL.

In a nuclear-powered car, perhaps.

[TheA_Bomb]

It's been a while. The ride back seemed a lot longer after that disappointing loss.

[GoBills]

Having been there, this is not hate, because we've accomplished so much or that they're worried about us. It's more like they wish they never knew us.

They should be worried about us over the next few years. If opposing fans are not, fine by me. They will be in for a rude awakening. I am certain opposing coaches will be worried about playing a talented team coached by Rick Majerus.

[Schasz]

I do not think the problem mentioned by the OP is NOT the league...it is history. SLU does not have a rich history of winning basketball, and until that changes you will continue to see 11 people at a first round tourney game. We start winning and get on a run of consecutive NCAA Tourney appearances with some success in the Tourney included and see how many fans start traveling to conference tournaments.

Courtside mentions Marquette but I would mention schools like Xavier, Gonzaga, and Butler. Heck, I remember when we were in the same conference as Butler and they were pretty mediocre back in those days. How things can change in a few short years. I will guarantee you that many of the teams in those BCS conferences will not want to see Butler in their half of the bracket come selection time tonight.

The A10 is the best option for SLU now as we did not have the history to be invited to join the Big East a few years ago. I do sense changes on the horizon once the Big 10 adds its team and hopefully with some success in getting NCAA invites we can be a more attractive team for any conference realignments that happen in the future.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Head and shoulders? No way. Debateable, maybe.

Not if you go back 7 yrs or so (that is the appropriate sample*, since current A-10 alignment with SLU).

RPI is equal, MVC wins some yrs, A-10 others. Look it up, I have.

In mid major land, coaches that do well leave to bigger programs, then their former teams slip dramatically.

A-10 has more NCAA bids over last 7 yrs but has 4 more teams, 14-10.

This yr A-10 should get 3 NCAA to one for MVC (TBD later today) and RPI is better. Wow.

Also, another perspective, this yr MVC has 3 ca-ca teams, A-10 has 6.

(*Hell, if you go back further, then how far back? Do you include the MVC Cincinnati Bearcats 2 NCAA Championships, etc, etc?)

It's the "appropriate sample size" ONLY if you want to spin it in favor of the Missouri Valley apologists. And it doesn't make sense to pick the years SINCE Saint Louis U. decided to move to the Atlantic 10. Those years which almost favor the MVC could not have been part of the decision-making process because they hadn't happened yet. So it's more "appropriate" to look at 7, 10, 15, or however many years you want, PRIOR to the decision. Still, the years before and the years after simply and plainly demonstrate that the A-10 is preferable, head-to-head with the MVC. It's too bad you just don't want to see it. Thank God you're not responsible for the decision. (Heck, Rick Majerus is a great coach, but I'm glad he's not responsible for the decision!)

[Quality Is Job 1]

(*Hell, if you go back further, then how far back? Do you include the MVC Cincinnati Bearcats 2 NCAA Championships, etc, etc?)

P.S., this straw man is an obvious indication that you have a weak argument.

[JMM28]

One thing is obvious. The conference tournament needs to be done with Atlantic City. Any time you have a 15 minute delay on the one national tv game of the year, thanks to your ###### tv package, because of A LEAKING ROOF. Really? How embarrassing. Totally minor league.

I'd rather have the tournament be in Philadelphia. I don't think it gives teams from Philly any more advantage than being in Atlantic City which is supposedly only an hour away from Philly.

So my list of things to improve...

-Get rid of no less than 2 and no more than 4 schools.

-Get the conference tournament out of Atlantic City.

-Get a tv deal where teams can actually be on TV! Maybe a nice internet feed would be nice too.

[courtside]

I do not think the problem mentioned by the OP is NOT the league...it is history. SLU does not have a rich history of winning basketball, and until that changes you will continue to see 11 people at a first round tourney game. We start winning and get on a run of consecutive NCAA Tourney appearances with some success in the Tourney included and see how many fans start traveling to conference tournaments.

Courtside mentions Marquette but I would mention schools like Xavier, Gonzaga, and Butler. Heck, I remember when we were in the same conference as Butler and they were pretty mediocre back in those days. How things can change in a few short years. I will guarantee you that many of the teams in those BCS conferences will not want to see Butler in their half of the bracket come selection time tonight.

The A10 is the best option for SLU now as we did not have the history to be invited to join the Big East a few years ago. I do sense changes on the horizon once the Big 10 adds its team and hopefully with some success in getting NCAA invites we can be a more attractive team for any conference realignments that happen in the future.

Schasz you can enter other examples of teams too. It isn't exclusive to one team. But I think a lesson can be learned about building long term relationships, University commitment to winning hoops, with everyone on board from the top down. SLU's President is still the guy who said, "Okay, okay, we built the Arena now there are no excuses." ...As if to say, leave me alone now....That strikes me as someone who doesn't get it. It was and is also topical, considering the recent article on the topic and budgets.

If SLU wanted or wants to be in the Big East then, now or in future...SLU will have to do things radically different in many areas to have any type of success.

The Big East plays rough and tumble physical ball. The refs won't be SLU's friends. It takes money to be competitive. Dust the pocket books for moth balls. It takes communication, leadership, relationships, money, cooperation, etc...on down the line. Marquette probably looks like it has ten fans compared to ...say...the 'Cuse at the Garden. There is no love lost for their team and several others in that league.

Spending money doesn't guarantee success, but it is an interesting tidbit to see the NY Times piece this past week and compare it to how Marquette has done in their league. Only one other team in their league has finished top 5 annually since Marquette joined the league.

[Schasz]

Schasz you can enter other examples of teams too. It isn't exclusive to one team. But I think a lesson can be learned about building long term relationships, University commitment to winning hoops, with everyone on board from the top down. SLU's President is still the guy who said, "Okay, okay, we built the Arena now there are no excuses." ...As if to say, leave me alone now....That strikes me as someone who doesn't get it. It was and is also topical, considering the recent article on the topic and budgets.

If SLU wanted or wants to be in the Big East then, now or in future...SLU will have to do things radically different in many areas to have any type of success.

The Big East plays rough and tumble physical ball. The refs won't be SLU's friends. It takes money to be competitive. Dust the pocket books for moth balls. It takes communication, leadership, relationships, money, cooperation, etc...on down the line. Marquette probably looks like it has ten fans compared to ...say...the 'Cuse at the Garden. There is no love lost for their team and several others in that league.

Spending money doesn't guarantee success, but it is an interesting tidbit to see the NY Times piece this past week and compare it to how Marquette has done in their league. Only one other team in their league has finished top 5 annually since Marquette joined the league.

Building the Chaifetz was a huge step in the right direction, but we would agree that it simply cannot be the final step in becoming what Fr. Biondi wanted what seems like ions ago...a Top 50 program. The one thing mentioned several times on this board and mind you it is just one thing was the supposed taking away of charter flights. If you want to be big time it's one thing to say that is what you want and another to get the job done. Building Chaifetz and getting a top notch HC were good steps and Fr has to be complimented for them. Not allowing charter flights is a step backwards. I would simply say spending money is not an end all, but spending it wisely is necessary to reach the goal of being big time.

[eastsidejoe]

Building the Chaifetz was a huge step in the right direction, but we would agree that it simply cannot be the final step in becoming what Fr. Biondi wanted what seems like ions ago...a Top 50 program. The one thing mentioned several times on this board and mind you it is just one thing was the supposed taking away of charter flights. If you want to be big time it's one thing to say that is what you want and another to get the job done. Building Chaifetz and getting a top notch HC were good steps and Fr has to be complimented for them. Not allowing charter flights is a step backwards. I would simply say spending money is not an end all, but spending it wisely is necessary to reach the goal of being big time.

++2

[courtside]

Building the Chaifetz was a huge step in the right direction, but we would agree that it simply cannot be the final step in becoming what Fr. Biondi wanted what seems like ions ago...a Top 50 program. The one thing mentioned several times on this board and mind you it is just one thing was the supposed taking away of charter flights. If you want to be big time it's one thing to say that is what you want and another to get the job done. Building Chaifetz and getting a top notch HC were good steps and Fr has to be complimented for them. Not allowing charter flights is a step backwards. I would simply say spending money is not an end all, but spending it wisely is necessary to reach the goal of being big time.

It's safe to say there has never been a time when anyone could say SLU spent too much on its men's hoops program.

It's a given to spend wisely, but you won't get far if you don't spend at all. And for most of its existence, that has been SLU.

[moytoy12]

It's safe to say there has never been a time when anyone could say SLU spent too much on its men's hoops program.

I bet there has. It's all relative.

[slu72]

I'd rather have the tournament be in Philadelphia. I don't think it gives teams from Philly any more advantage than being in Atlantic City which is supposedly only an hour away from Philly.

Pittsburgh would be a better choice than Philly. You've got 3 A-10 schools in Philly. They already have a big advantage with ACity. It's only about an hour from Philly. Now granted DU might gain an advantage but they don't draw too well anyways. Pitt's 4 hours from Philly, about 5 from Dayton and Cinn. And if it was held in Pitt both X and UD would have big contingents. Again, Charlotte and SLU have the most miles to travel but it's better and closer than ACity by a long shot.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Pittsburgh would be a better choice than Philly. You've got 3 A-10 schools in Philly. They already have a big advantage with ACity. It's only about an hour from Philly. Now granted DU might gain an advantage but they don't draw too well anyways. Pitt's 4 hours from Philly, about 5 from Dayton and Cinn. And if it was held in Pitt both X and UD would have big contingents. Again, Charlotte and SLU have the most miles to travel but it's better and closer than ACity by a long shot.

Agreed re putting A-10 Tournament in Pittsburgh. A new arena will be ready there. It is about the closest thing to being centrally located- it isn't, but at least it's not a 64 mile bus ride for Temple. And Pittsburgh is accessible by commercial flights.

2 minutes until NIT Selection Show. I'm hoping for the best ...

[JamminJamalJohnson]

After speaking to an assistant coach in the airport, my thoughts about the tournement were reinforced. He described the A-10 Tournament as 'brutal' for SLU. Furthermore, he explained the nature of the tournament experience as this: "SLU is essentially playing a road game, every game in this tournament. Expecting to win three straight road games in this league is too much to simply expect. This conference is too good." In addition, he stated the team needed four commercial flights to get back to campus.

If a coach was sitting in the airport saying this that is really disappointing. That stuff needs to stay in house.