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billikenfan05

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I'd hope a GT big, if we're lucky to land one, would be more of contributor than Anthony. Or a PG like Austin would be a good signee as well. Basically, provide us with experience and solid play. They don't need to be Isabell types. Actually, a Wiley type would be good if he's not so fragile. I don't think he came here expecting to be a star. Isabell did. Ford's big problem is rounding out the classes,  and GTs are a good way to do that. 

 

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5 minutes ago, Pistol said:

Spring classes started 1/14. He played on 1/15 and 1/18. He's appeared in 15 games total. I'm pretty sure he's missed his chance to be a mid-season transfer, even via waiver.

Here is the paraphrased rule on medical hardship waivers: An athlete must not have participated in more than three contests or 30 percent of their season schedule (whichever is greater) and not after the halfway point of the season (based on the number of contests rather than a particular date).  Jacobs' 15 games are over the 30% limit as is the halfway issue.

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41 minutes ago, ACE said:

Agreed. Many people on this board were convinced we were going to likely be a Tourney team BEFORE Isabell and Wiley signed. Now apparently they are big reasons why this season has been a disappointment?

Righting off an entire category of player (grad transfers) just because you don't like the way a couple of them have performed is really short-sighted. I would have been thrilled if we landed Justin Coleman (who visited) or a player like Mooney at Texas Tech.

This season would have been a LOT worse, without the two grad transfers. A lot of more of Jacobs and Thor would have been better?

Seniors are supposed to be better than freshmen.  But while freshmen on other teams are getting a lot better because they are playing and get to play through mistakes, a guy like Fred Thatch gets only enough minutes to make incremental progress.

This is how 2 stars on other teams end up better players than our 3 star players.  At some point you have to pick your best freshman and invest in that guy.  Renting  an above average guard for a year doesn't make your program better in the long run.

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12 minutes ago, slu72 said:

I'd hope a GT big, if we're lucky to land one, would be more of contributor than Anthony. Or a PG like Austin would be a good signee as well. Basically, provide us with experience and solid play. They don't need to be Isabell types. Actually, a Wiley type would be good if he's not so fragile. I don't think he came here expecting to be a star. Isabell did. Ford's big problem is rounding out the classes,  and GTs are a good way to do that. 

 

Can you name even two grad transfer bigs across any of the mid major conferences who is averaging 8-10 ppg?  I think folks are looking for a class of players that doesn't actually exist.

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i totally get the "look at what we now have and wonder where we would be without them" mentality.  

however we all pretty much agree it hasnt worked out like we expected from them.   they both have had excellent moments, but in the same sense, we've all had head shaking time as well.   

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1 minute ago, billiken_roy said:

i totally get the "look at what we now have and wonder where we would be without them" mentality.  

however we all pretty much agree it hasnt worked out like we expected from them.   they both have had excellent moments, but in the same sense, we've all had head shaking time as well.   

Outside of Bess, it hasn't worked as expected for most of the players on the team. 

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3 hours ago, Box and Won said:

In the spirit of Occam's Razor, Schrodinger's Cat, et al, I propose we call these situations "Pearson's Grandma."

Thank you for the laugh I hope to remember to use that term sometime soon.

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23 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

Seniors are supposed to be better than freshmen.  But while freshmen on other teams are getting a lot better because they are playing and get to play through mistakes, a guy like Fred Thatch gets only enough minutes to make incremental progress.

This is how 2 stars on other teams end up better players than our 3 star players.  At some point you have to pick your best freshman and invest in that guy.  Renting  an above average guard for a year doesn't make your program better in the long run.

But the expectation of this team heading into this season is that it was going to be a NCAA Tourney. Adding a couple of grad transfers made sense.  You would have given Thor and Jacobs a bunch of minutes and felt good about our chances? Thatch has had a significant role this year and gotten some good experience.

Now with the dream of an at-large bid over, I'm on board with him getting more minutes the rest of the way and it appears Ford is as well. FT has gotten over 20 minutes his last three games after getting 12 and 14 the previous two games.

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When you add two guard transfers and three freshman guards in the same class, you're basically saying two of those freshmen aren't going to get enough minutes to develop in any meaningful way.  That's one grad transfer to many. 

Now we're facing the departure of both Ingvi and Jacobs and having to replace them with more freshmen.  And if the board has its way , another grad transfer guard to park those two freshmen on the bench.  When does it end?

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32 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

Can you name even two grad transfer bigs across any of the mid major conferences who is averaging 8-10 ppg?  I think folks are looking for a class of players that doesn't actually exist.

Just looking at stats for 2018 GT centers and PFs at mid major or above conferences:

zach Hankins, Xavier, 9.8 ppg

Tariq Owens, Texas tech, 8.2 ppg

Trey porter, Nevada, 7.6 ppg

Ryan welage, Xavier 7.3 ppg

ryan Luther, Arizona 7.3 ppg

jack williams, Rice, 10.1 ppg

femi olujobi, DePaul 13.2 ppg

chriatian mekowulu, Texas A&M 7.9 ppg

reid travis, Kentucky 11.7 ppg

I’d say this represents about 30-40% of the big men (4s and 5s) that transferred to schools in approximately the top 15 conferences.  

Edit: I just pulled names from the 2018 GTs listed here: https://gradtransfertracker.com/2018-committed-transfers-basketball-1/

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2 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

When you add two guard transfers and three freshman guards in the same class, you're basically saying two of those freshmen aren't going to get enough minutes to develop in any meaningful way.  That's one grad transfer to many. 

Now we're facing the departure of both Ingvi and Jacobs and having to replace them with more freshmen.  And if the board has its way , another grad transfer guard to park those two freshmen on the bench.  When does it end?

So freshmen can't wait their turn on the bench behind a senior for one season?  

What would have been a better use of those last two scholarships? Another freshman guard or two? Kids leave too when there are too many players at the same position in one class. And kids also leave when there is a quality transfer sitting out and then becomes eligible and takes away playing time. And some kids leave because they miss their mommy or they're trying to run away from bad people in their hometown or because they over-inflate how good they are. 

Basically a lot of kids leave in today's college basketball for a variety of reasons, so you might as well try to build the most talented roster you can and create competition. Some kids are gong to fall by the wayside in the process.

You think really good players like Bess and French care about competition at their respective positions? I doubt it. I suspect they are confident and will work and believe they are good enough to earn playing time. I think guys like that want the coach to surround them with other talented players to try to win and don't care about perceived competition for playing time.

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15 minutes ago, moytoy12 said:

Just looking at stats for 2018 GT centers and PFs at mid major or above conferences:

zach Hankins, Xavier, 9.8 ppg

Tariq Owens, Texas tech, 8.2 ppg

Trey porter, Nevada, 7.6 ppg

Ryan welage, Xavier 7.3 ppg

ryan Luther, Arizona 7.3 ppg

jack williams, Rice, 10.1 ppg

femi olujobi, DePaul 13.2 ppg

chriatian mekowulu, Texas A&M 7.9 ppg

reid travis, Kentucky 11.7 ppg

I’d say this represents about 30-40% of the big men (4s and 5s) that transferred to schools in approximately the top 15 conferences.  

Edit: I just pulled names from the 2018 GTs listed here: https://gradtransfertracker.com/2018-committed-transfers-basketball-1/

You've made my point. Practically all the grad transfers we'd be interested in opted to play for high majors. The only one we would have been able to get is averaging double figures for a bad mid major team.

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2 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

 

You've made my point. Practically all the grad transfers we'd be interested in opted to play for high majors. The only one we would have been able to get is averaging double figures for a bad mid major team.

I'll give you Arizona and Kentucky (obviously).  But I think we'd have a chance to land the players at the other programs (depaul, rice, A&M, X, Nevada, TT).  I guess my point is that these players exist and some went to schools where we'd have a fighting chance to land them.  This doesn't take into account the bigs having success at smaller schools (granted, their numbers could be inflated because of competition) or bigs that would give us something like 5 ppg/5 rpg, which would be a good complement to next year's team. 

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39 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

When you add two guard transfers and three freshman guards in the same class, you're basically saying two of those freshmen aren't going to get enough minutes to develop in any meaningful way.  That's one grad transfer to many. 

Now we're facing the departure of both Ingvi and Jacobs and having to replace them with more freshmen.  And if the board has its way , another grad transfer guard to park those two freshmen on the bench.  When does it end?

This is the problem when the quick fix rebuild doesn't work.  You end up right back where you started. Time to bite the bullet and sacrifice the really short term for the long term.  

If we try to load up on transfers and grad transfers again, you have to really start asking what is Ford's end game.  Is it to build a program at SLU or is it to flip this job as quickly as possible for a return to the power 6.

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1 minute ago, brianstl said:

This is the problem when the quick fix rebuild doesn't work.  You end up right back where you started. Time to bite the bullet and sacrifice the really short term for the long term.  

If we try to load up on transfers and grad transfers again, you have to really start asking what is Ford's end game.  Is it to build a program at SLU or is it to flip this job as quickly as possible for a return to the power 6.

Ultimately, I think I agree with you and 3-star. However, if we're in a position where we either reach for a Freshman big (i.e. Jolly, Neufeld, etc.) or take a GT big with a decent track record, i'm going with the latter. 

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7 minutes ago, brianstl said:

This is the problem when the quick fix rebuild doesn't work.  You end up right back where you started. Time to bite the bullet and sacrifice the really short term for the long term.  

If we try to load up on transfers and grad transfers again, you have to really start asking what is Ford's end game.  Is it to build a program at SLU or is it to flip this job as quickly as possible for a return to the power 6.

The fact that we are again in position scrambling to fill more scholarships in the spring has nothing to do with going after grad transfers last year. It has more to do with 2, possibly 3 freshmen leaving and with a player having a career ending injury. 

Ford entered this season with 5 freshmen, so it's not like he abandoned the idea of signing young players.

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6 minutes ago, moytoy12 said:

Ultimately, I think I agree with you and 3-star. However, if we're in a position where we either reach for a Freshman big (i.e. Jolly, Neufeld, etc.) or take a GT big with a decent track record, i'm going with the latter. 

I think we’re in position to take both 

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1 hour ago, ACE said:

So freshmen can't wait their turn on the bench behind a senior for one season?  

What would have been a better use of those last two scholarships? Another freshman guard or two? Kids leave too when there are too many players at the same position in one class. And kids also leave when there is a quality transfer sitting out and then becomes eligible and takes away playing time. And some kids leave because they miss their mommy or they're trying to run away from bad people in their hometown or because they over-inflate how good they are. 

Basically a lot of kids leave in today's college basketball for a variety of reasons, so you might as well try to build the most talented roster you can and create competition. Some kids are gong to fall by the wayside in the process.

You think really good players like Bess and French care about competition at their respective positions? I doubt it. I suspect they are confident and will work and believe they are good enough to earn playing time. I think guys like that want the coach to surround them with other talented players to try to win and don't care about perceived competition for playing time.

 

28 minutes ago, moytoy12 said:

Ultimately, I think I agree with you and 3-star. However, if we're in a position where we either reach for a Freshman big (i.e. Jolly, Neufeld, etc.) or take a GT big with a decent track record, i'm going with the latter. 

Those aren't the the only choices. You can give the 13th scholarship to a walk on. Or to a two year transfer. It's not written anywhere that you have to dress 13.

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2 hours ago, moytoy12 said:

I would take the Isabell equivalent of a grad transfer big man in a heartbeat.  

Me too. 

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So next year we have

C     ...

PF    H French

SF     Hankton, Goodwin, Hargrove, Goodwin, Perkins, Jimmerson

Shooting Guard     ...

Combo guard     Thatch, Jacobs

PG     Collins

if Welmer and/or Jacobs slots become open, we need  a center, a second PG, and a shooter. We are so thin in the front court, it would be nice to get a center, a stretch four, and a second larger PG.

Current playing time has proven that we are in little danger of developing one of our combo guards into a PG with a good handle.

 

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46 minutes ago, 3star_recruit said:

 

Those aren't the the only choices. You can give the 13th scholarship to a walk on. Or to a two year transfer. It's not written anywhere that you have to dress 13.

No thank you to the first option. When the school year began, we had 13 scholarship players and we now barely have enough to play. I think we should know by now that you can never have too much depth.

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If you're losing so many players to injury and attrition, that you need to rely on your 13th player for "depth", you've got to re-evaluate how you're practicing or how you're recruiting.

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Bummer about Hankton. He needs the experience. that 11 point game in part time minutes was promising.

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1 hour ago, 3star_recruit said:

 

Those aren't the the only choices. You can give the 13th scholarship to a walk on. Or to a two year transfer. It's not written anywhere that you have to dress 13.

I understand.  I'm just saying, if it's either/or, i'm going with the GT big in my scenario.  That being said, we have plenty of open spots and I think we both agree that there is a place on the roster for both a solid GT big (if possible) and a freshman big.  

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