John Manning

[TheChosenOne]

Until his concussion, it seemed like Reggie was stepping up and taking minutes. And if TL can find that early season stroke, I suspect he'll take minutes too.

True, injuries have certainly not helped Reggie's cause. My post came across more negative than I intended it to. I have been slightly underwhelmed by the freshmen, but they have all had moments where they show their ability which is encoruaging. I was hoping for at least one of the freshmen to pass one of the more experienced guys (names mentioned above) in the rotation, but that could still happen and Reggie may have been on his way to doing so prior to the concussion.

[brianstl]

That 06-07 team lost their 4th game of the year to Texas A&M 69 to 33. I can't see this team getting embarrassed like that. That team also had absolutely no depth at all. The starting 5 was Polk, Lisch, Liddell, Meyer, Vouyoukas and the bench was just Danny Brown, Justin Johnson, and Husak. Outside of the top 3 for each team, there is really no comparison.

Looking back though, that team did inexplicably have some pretty good wins (MO State, Mississippi, Xavier all at home), but they were negated by awful losses (@St. Bonaventure, Duquense, @Fordham). They basically did as expected W-L record wise OOC. If you look more closely at the point spreads, there was worrisome trends. Once conference play started, their flaws were exposed. Only 1 conference road win wasn't going to cut it.

Tom Timmerman sometimes says you can judge a team by their record in blowout games (we'll say 15+ points). The 06-07 team was 3-2 in such games during the non-conference schedule. This team is 5-0 so far (with a 14 pointer over Wofford as well).

This team is clearly better than the 2006-07 team. Just being better than 2006-07 team doesn't get me all that excited anymore. I think they are a tournament team. I just think this team should be better than it has been so far. The way this team has played won't even get you one win in the tournament and it really isn't all that early in the season anymore.

[NextYearBill]

tomorrows game will be very telling

[slu72]

So far I'd rank them in this order: TL, RA, and MC. TL largely on the BG game. RA because he can board, but still needs work on O. MC looked like a sniper against SEMO and a fifth wheel against everyone else. But to be fair, we really haven't got a decent sample size to make a decent evaluation on what contributions they will make in the future . Obviously they're going to have the adrenaline flowing when they get minutes in real game time, real game time being defined as minutes in the heat of battle not scrub time. They're either going to try and do too much to impress the staff, or they're going the other way and be tentative so as to not screw things up too much. In both cases they're thinking too much and not playing instinctively like they did in HS. Go back and look at their high light vids for proof. They're frosh, let's give them some break in time and be thankful that right now we don't need them to come thru big time. Although, that's subject to change at any time due to injuries. Yes, it would be nice if they were UK and Duke type frosh, but we've only had one of those in the over 40 years I've been a Bills fan.

[TheChosenOne]

Yes, it would be nice if they were UK and Duke type frosh, but we've only had one of those in the over 40 years I've been a Bills fan.

There is a lot in between that and what we are currently getting from our freshmen though. I don't think anybody was expecting these kids to walk in and be stars like the Kansas, Kentucky, and Duke kids. I also don't think anyone is crushing these kids or writing their careers off based on the first two months of the season. I just think most probably hoped/expected for a little bit more and that is not unreasonable. The season is far from over, so hopefully the freshmen show improvement and maybe one of them establishes themsleves in the rotation.

[ACE]

That 06-07 team lost their 4th game of the year to Texas A&M 69 to 33. I can't see this team getting embarrassed like that. That team also had absolutely no depth at all. The starting 5 was Polk, Lisch, Liddell, Meyer, Vouyoukas and the bench was just Danny Brown, Justin Johnson, and Husak. Outside of the top 3 for each team, there is really no comparison.

Looking back though, that team did inexplicably have some pretty good wins (MO State, Mississippi, Xavier all at home), but they were negated by awful losses (@St. Bonaventure, Duquense, @Fordham). They basically did as expected W-L record wise OOC. If you look more closely at the point spreads, there was worrisome trends. Once conference play started, their flaws were exposed. Only 1 conference road win wasn't going to cut it.

Tom Timmerman sometimes says you can judge a team by their record in blowout games (we'll say 15+ points). The 06-07 team was 3-2 in such games during the non-conference schedule. This team is 5-0 so far (with a 14 pointer over Wofford as well).

That loss to A&M was perhaps the most embarrasing loss by a SLU team that had some decent talent. Looking at that rotation highlights a point I have made previously... back in the day guys like Polk and Meyer were never pushed for playing time. The depth was terrible.

[ACE]

I think most on this board realized with the number of experienced upperclassmen returning that we would not need to rely heavily on the freshmen, but I think you would have to acknowledge that they have provided less than anticipated to this point. I think most were hoping/expecting one of the freshmen to step up and play themselves into a role taking minutes from Billikens.com favorites like Jake "the Snake" Barnett and John Manning or Grandy Glaze. Some of the more optimistic posters saw Lancona as possibly stepping into the role left by Cody Ellis, Reggie pushing Glaze and Manning for minutes, and Crawford passing Barnett on the depth chart and being the knock down 3 point shooter. To this point none of that has happened and unfortunately it is not because the guys ahead of them are playing lights out.

The freshmen have pretty much provided what I expected. I take it you are being a smart a$$ by calling some of these guys billikens.com favorites, but Grandy most definitely should be one. He is leading the team in rebounding. Who predicted that? As moy pointed out, Reggie has battled a couple little injuries but was working his way into the rotation.

I have seen enough of Lancona and Agbeko to feel good about what the future holds. One of them will settle in and be a part of the rotation the rest of this year and both will be a big part of the rotation next year.

[Box and Won]

Looking back though, that team did inexplicably have some pretty good wins (MO State, Mississippi, Xavier all at home), but they were negated by awful losses (@St. Bonaventure, Duquense, @Fordham).

In fairness to the 06-07 team, Fordham was not bad that year. They had Bryant Dunston back then. They've basically been in a freefall ever since.

[cheeseman]

My my - such critiques. Having read through this thread I see many of the same comments I have made myself before - better be careful you will be labeled a "Debbie Downer".

[Bizziken]

That 06-07 team lost their 4th game of the year to Texas A&M 69 to 33. I can't see this team getting embarrassed like that. That team also had absolutely no depth at all. The starting 5 was Polk, Lisch, Liddell, Meyer, Vouyoukas and the bench was just Danny Brown, Justin Johnson, and Husak. Outside of the top 3 for each team, there is really no comparison.

Looking back though, that team did inexplicably have some pretty good wins (MO State, Mississippi, Xavier all at home), but they were negated by awful losses (@St. Bonaventure, Duquense, @Fordham). They basically did as expected W-L record wise OOC. If you look more closely at the point spreads, there was worrisome trends. Once conference play started, their flaws were exposed. Only 1 conference road win wasn't going to cut it.

Tom Timmerman sometimes says you can judge a team by their record in blowout games (we'll say 15+ points). The 06-07 team was 3-2 in such games during the non-conference schedule. This team is 5-0 so far (with a 14 pointer over Wofford as well).

The 06-07 team really pissed me off...I was a Junior, and had high hopes for that team. They had gone 10-3 in the Non-Conference, with losses to 2 Top 10 caliber teams (UNC, Texas A&M) and a Sweet-16 SIUC team. They had a Bonaventure (who went 7-22 that year) on the road and a crappy Duquesne squad (10-19) at home to open the conference. I had penciled those in as Wins and we them up and our season went downhill from there...no way will this year's team do that...they aren't that bad.

That loss to A&M was perhaps the most embarrasing loss by a SLU team that had some decent talent. Looking at that rotation highlights a point I have made previously... back in the day guys like Polk and Meyer were never pushed for playing time. The depth was terrible.

I remember losing @Kent State 81-40 in 07-08...That was embarrassing too. I was hoping that team could vie for an NIT bid that year (Marjerus's first) since we returned Lisch, Liddell, Brown, Meyer, Polk, and Husak while adding Eberhardt

[MB73]

The Billikens are a solid 9-2 with close losses to two top notch teams. If we had won one of those, it would have helped immensely of course for our NCAA resume.

Sure, we all wish to see more of the freshmen, especially the bigs, but we should not quibble over these matters, they are being brought along by a good staff and the team comes first. Patience.

Losing shooters and leaders like KM and CE takes time, Crews is figuring out the best combinations for the long run this year and getting the freshmen playing minutes is of secondary concern.

We should have a nice year barring injuries, get into the NCAA's again. Maybe not as formidable a team as last year, but we should be OK.

[JohnnyJumpUp]

How can a Junior big man, 6'11" 240 lbs, be so bad on the boards? The only players on the team he out-rebounded during the pre-conference schedule were Barnett, McBroom and Crawford. I don't get it.

[gobillsgo]

How can a Junior big man, 6'11" 240 lbs, be so bad on the boards? The only players on the team he out-rebounded during the pre-conference schedule were Barnett, McBroom and Crawford. I don't get it.

I've always maintained that he is just naturally uncoordinated, which is understandable given his height. Muscle memory on shooting and such probably help some, but you can never fully cure a lack of coordination.

[JohnnyJumpUp]

I've always maintained that he is just naturally uncoordinated, which is understandable given his height. Muscle memory on shooting and such probably help some, but you can never fully cure a lack of coordination.

In the pre-conference schedule, he was the lowest on the team in ppm, just beating out Barnett for that honor. His scoring is not really a concern though. Given his size he should be close to top on the team in boards and blocks. His rebounding is terrible.

[billslasttermdropout]

Bad hands don't help. I think he cures this mostly by next season though.

[Bobby Metzinger]

I've always maintained that he is just naturally uncoordinated, which is understandable given his height. Muscle memory on shooting and such probably help some, but you can never fully cure a lack of coordination.

Don't we have a strength and conditioning and coordination coordinator?

Why do we recruit uncoordinated players? Shouldn't that be a "red flag" for most Division I, II, III, NAIA coaches, etc?

[gobillsgo]

Don't we have a strength and conditioning and coordination coordinator?

Why do we recruit uncoordinated players? Shouldn't that be a "red flag" for most Division I, II, III, NAIA coaches, etc?

Well, I assume they were willing to take the chance that he might develop more coordination given he is 7ft tall. Seems like sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. 7 footers that are coordinated in high school go to UK and the like for one year.

[cheeseman]

JM is why you don't redshirt a player just because he might not play his freshman year. There has to be potential that you can see not just hope for. If we had redshirted him we would have 2 more years not just one tied up.

[Taj79]

Again, name a redshirt that has "helped" us. I am not talking about the transfer redshirts but the developmental redshirts. Since 2000, we have redshirted Justin Johnson, Byrce Husak, Jared Drew, Daniel Lisch, Emmanual Tselenkakis, and Dustin Maguire. Did I miss anyone? I can see taking a flyer on a seven-footer because, as the old NBA adage goes, "you can't teach height," but next year, it is possible we have three "flyers" on our roster in Manning, Gillmann and Jolley. And Welmer is going to prep school.

The team that wins still scores more baskets than the other guys and that takes some skill.

[Bobby Metzinger]

Well, I assume they were willing to take the chance that he might develop more coordination given he is 7ft tall. Seems like sometimes it works out and sometimes it doesn't. 7 footers that are coordinated in high school go to UK and the like for one year.

As much as I love SLU and think that's a valid point, the comparison between 7 footers who go to Kentucky for a year and then to the Association and John Manning is a stretch Manning fits the "project" mold in the same way a Brett Thompson or Husak did. And maybe Manning wows 'em in practice and it just doesn't translate when the spotlight is on... just like I can hit a driver straight off the tee on the driving range, but when I get on the course, I shank the out of the ball!

[NH]

As much as I love SLU and think that's a valid point, the comparison between 7 footers who go to Kentucky for a year and then to the Association and John Manning is a stretch Manning fits the "project" mold in the same way a Brett Thompson or Husak did. And maybe Manning wows 'em in practice and it just doesn't translate when the spotlight is on... just like I can hit a driver straight off the tee on the driving range, but when I get on the course, I shank the ###### out of the ball!

I don't know if "project" is the right term for Thompson.

He was big, coordinated and he could shoot. However he was also, soft, fat and lazy. He just didn't have the mindset needed to be a D-1 player even though physically he might have, as evidence by how highly touted a recruit he was.

[Bobby Metzinger]

I don't know if "project" is the right term for Thompson.

He was big, coordinated and he could shoot. However he was also, soft, fat and lazy. He just didn't have the mindset needed to be a D-1 player even though physically he might have, as evidence by how highly touted a recruit he was.

That is also true. I guess Thompson and Manning are at opposite ends of the spectrum then. Manning has the "work ethic" intangibles, for sure. There's no arguing his hustle. The way you see it, NH, you'd take Manning over Thompson just from a hustle standpoint any day of the week, and the more I think about it, the more I agree with you. It's just making the transition from the practice court to game day. Maybe it's just the speed of the game that's overwhelming, but Manning does work hard.