John Manning

[ACE]

Let's not freak out because Lancona and Crawford aren't the second coming of Ellis and Highmark after 11 games.

I think all 11 players on the roster should be playing at least 20 minutes per game and if they don't, I'm going to freak out.

[Littlebill]

I understand where you're coming from, however can you really say Crews looks as good this year as he has the last two years? Shouldn't a coach as great as himself be able to adjust to teams' weaknesses and create some kind of floor leader out of all the talent we have? I sure would think so. This team definitely has some problems to work out before conference play, but regardless I'm anxious to see it play out.

As good as he looked against Santa Clara? What about Rhode Island? Or how about the whole noncon season last year (sans NM)?

It's December. We're not dropping any of these games like we have in the past. I have faith that this team will pick it up come January.

[b.hayes]

I just don't see why we redshirted Agbeko when clearly he can help.

[jbizzle09]

I've already given up on Lancona, Agbeko and Crawford. If you don't play at least 20 minutes a game as a freshman, then you will never amount to anything.

[slu72]

Yep, pull their scholies. RM would have.

[West Pine Jim]

These guys all wear yellow pullovers in practice. Not a redshirt in the bunch.

[slufan13]

We redshirted Manning?

[brianstl]

Crawford has already played 32 total minutes this year which is more than Grady played his entire freshman year (29) and approaching the amount Manning played his freshman year (47). We are used to seeing freshman play big minutes because there were no other options. I think most freshman getting less than 100 minutes will be the new norm if Crews can keep the program at it's current level of success.

You don't redshirt those kids because in most cases if they can't crack the rotation their freshman year, you don't want them eating up a scholarship for an extra year. Also, as others have said, you need them in case of an injury.

I don't think they should have redshirted anyone, but possible injuries are not a reason not to redshirt someone. If you need the kid because of injuries you just play him. Just because you plan on redshirting a kid doesn't mean you can't change your mind at any point in the season.

[JettFlight5]

I've already given up on Lancona, Agbeko and Crawford. If you don't play at least 20 minutes a game as a freshman, then you will never amount to anything.

Larry Hughes is the minimum freshman standard now.

[Taj79]

I've given up on no one. I didn't say the second coming of Ellis or Highmark, I didn't say cut them, I didn't say Hughes was the standard ..... all I wanted to see was some contribution ................... NO ..................any contribution. Just not there. Into battle on that horse ...............

Pray like hell one of our "four horsemen" doesn't go down .... the apocalypse will surely move out of Sleepy Hollow and into Chaifetz. But again, we have some more time remaining in this OOC.

[Billikenswin]

I've given up on no one. I didn't say the second coming of Ellis or Highmark, I didn't say cut them, I didn't say Hughes was the standard ..... all I wanted to see was some contribution ................... NO ..................any contribution. Just not there. Into battle on that horse ...............

Pray like hell one of our "four horsemen" doesn't go down .... the apocalypse will surely move out of Sleepy Hollow and into Chaifetz. But again, we have some more time remaining in this OOC.

It is absolutely astounding to me that you can so negative about a 9-2 team w close losses only to the 4th ranked and 11th ranked teams in the nation. And Masseys compilation has wisc at 2 and WS at 8!

[jbizzle09]

It is absolutely astounding to me that you can so negative about a 9-2 team w close losses only to the 4th ranked and 11th ranked teams in the nation. And Masseys compilation has wisc at 2 and WS at 8!

Obviously, you don't know Taj that well...

[jbizzle09]

@larry72: harsh may be harsh but I am not judging Lancona and Crawford on the Wofford game, rather it's on the body of work to date. You are absolutely right when you say judging on three or four minutes is tough but at the real issue for me is we are playing arguably some dregs of basketball society here ---- SEMO, SIUE, SIUC, Wofford, etc. --- and our freshmen are getting nothing or just one to five minutes. I know the OOC schedule is about 60% complete and yes it takes a while, but I see nothing promising on the horizon base don performances to date to suggest that these guys will contribute even an iota of usefulness right now.

Can that change? Absolutely. Luckily if I'm right, we have 40% to go and left in the OOC. Will it change? I doubt it. Short of Crawford's machine gun run in his first or second appearance, I have seen nothing to indicate otherwise. Which basically means we are riding the horse that brung us. I was hoping for a little help somewhere down the bench.

I've given up on no one. I didn't say the second coming of Ellis or Highmark, I didn't say cut them, I didn't say Hughes was the standard ..... all I wanted to see was some contribution ................... NO ..................any contribution. Just not there. Into battle on that horse ...............

Pray like hell one of our "four horsemen" doesn't go down .... the apocalypse will surely move out of Sleepy Hollow and into Chaifetz. But again, we have some more time remaining in this OOC.

So Lancona scoring 12 points in 14 minutes against BG while shooting 5 of 7 and 2 of 3 from three doesn't count? Or how about Agbeko getting two starts already and logging 14 minutes against Old Dominion? Does that not count for anything? Or is it just easier to say that the cupboard is empty and none of the seniors better get hurt because, well, YOU just haven't been given enough information to make a determination on how good these freshmen are yet? Perhaps we should just tell Coach Crews that he needs to make sure to give the freshmen more minutes per game to allay Billiken.com's Taj's fears of the future so he can finally make his projection on how decent they might be.

[JettFlight5]

We don't want any of the seniors to get hurt, but it has nothing to do with the freshmen.

These seniors are pretty good...get all 4 of them going, and I'll take my chances.

[almaman]

So Lancona scoring 12 points in 14 minutes against BG while shooting 5 of 7 and 2 of 3 from three doesn't count? Or how about Agbeko getting two starts already and logging 14 minutes against Old Dominion? Does that not count for anything? Or is it just easier to say that the cupboard is empty and none of the seniors better get hurt because, well, YOU just haven't been given enough information to make a determination on how good these freshmen are yet? Perhaps we should just tell Coach Crews that he needs to make sure to give the freshmen more minutes per game to allay Billiken.com's Taj's fears of the future so he can finally make his projection on how decent they might be.

And Crawford's 8 points in 3 minutes against the mighty SEMOians!

[Billboy1]

The real problem is this team has not looked like a machine at all. Playing the "dregs" should allow for the freshmen to get their feet wet to see if they can help out down the road. It seems like a lot of folks feel this team will turn it on when conference play starts and be the team we all thought it would be. Hope I'm wrong but unless this team finds itself soon NIT might be SLU's landing spot.

[Taj79]

@Billikenswin: on the contrary, I'm not being half as negative as I can be. As jbizz said, you don't know me well enough. Here is my sole point in this thread --- the freshmen have shown me little to nothing. I wanted more, especially considering who we have played. Yes, we lost to two very good teams and yes we are 9 and 2. Positives but I haven't addressed the team just yet. I was talking about what I have seen from our freshmen vis-a-vis what I expected. As for those losses -- and we could have won --- we fell short because this team is limited as I see it.

@jbizz/almaman: So Lancona had one game; and Crawford had three glorious minutes. One game does not a career make. Look up "Haughn, Shawn." Again, I didn't say the cupboard was bare. I said the contributions from the freshmen cupboard appears to be bare or at least not approaching the goals I had hoped for. That's on me but I don't think its unreasonable to see more than one to five minute glimpses of these kids especially considering who we are playing. I also said there is time to rectify that. Let's call this mid-term grades of their first semester. When I was in school, mid-term grades were a pat on the back or a kick in the butt. Consider these kicks. Crews need not adjust his recruiting and playing schedules to fit my needs. But the national coach of the year is about to have to stand on his own merits once this season goes bye-bye. I sure hope Lancona is more Ellis than Varner. I sure hope Crawford is more Highmark than he is Deiner. And I sure hope Agbeko is more Bonner than he is Newborne. Maybe not to the sdame levels, but on the positive side of the ledger.

@billsboy: exactly what I believe I am saying. Given this mid-term grade, despite the record, I don't see a team identity emerging yet. I don't see the same stick-to-them defense I've seen in the recent past. The offense is jumbled. We get big leads and lose them --- does this mean our horsemen lose intensity or is it because the replacement parts are weak? Manning 3.0 and Glaze 3.0 are showing signs but still not consistent enough. Seems everyone is reading the scouting reports and Evans' frustration level will only grow.

Tomorrow night will be a huge test in my mind. Let's see how it plays out from there. Then Vandy. NC A&T and Yale are throwaway games. I don't expect any real data out of those. The two games left to play will be very interesting ---- can we beat a pretty decent team at home, and can we beat a less thna decent team on the road? I expect 13 and 2 heading into conference play. But conference play is a whole different animal.

[brianstl]

It is absolutely astounding to me that you can so negative about a 9-2 team w close losses only to the 4th ranked and 11th ranked teams in the nation. And Masseys compilation has wisc at 2 and WS at 8!

We started the 2006-07 season 9-2. Our only losses were in true road games to eventual Sweet 16 teams. I was making posts just like yours. We ended up not making any postseason tournament that year.

There are some major differences between now and then, but I learned never to get too excited about the record at this time of the year. We have an outstanding defense and could end up being a really good team. That won't happen if we don't fix the problems on the offensive end.

[NH]

We started the 2006-07 season 9-2. Are only losses were in true road games to eventual Sweet 16 teams. I was making posts just like yours. We ended up not making any postseason tournament that year.

There are some major differences between now and then, but I learned never to get too excited about the record at this time of the year. We have an outstanding defense and could end up being a really good team. That won't happen if we don't fix the problems on the offensive end.

Brian I will say this much about comparing those two teams, when watching our team this year that 2006-07 team has felt eerily similar to this. I'm not saying they are the same team, because I don't have the basketball insight it would take to know something like that. But I will say that on paper they are very similar to me. Both teams returned two good guards (MM and JJ versus Lisch and Liddell), and an established inside scorer (Evans versus Vouyoukas). Both teams lacked another true presence at the 4 spot, or much scoring off the bench. Both teams started the non-con 9-2 by beating the teams they were supposed to and losing the bigger challenges.

I think that players like Loe, McBroom, Glaze and MAYBE even Barnett give this team the depth to be better than that team. But right now, that's the scary comparison that keeps popping up to me. We need to keep defending just as well, improve our 3-point shooting to an acceptable rate, and better establish our players' roles within the team in order for me to feel comfortable saying we will have a better finish than that year's squad.

[Bizziken]

@jbizz/almaman: So Lancona had one game; and Crawford had three glorious minutes. One game does not a career make. Look up "Haughn, Shawn." Again, I didn't say the cupboard was bare. I said the contributions from the freshmen cupboard appears to be bare or at least not approaching the goals I had hoped for. That's on me but I don't think its unreasonable to see more than one to five minute glimpses of these kids especially considering who we are playing. I also said there is time to rectify that. Let's call this mid-term grades of their first semester. When I was in school, mid-term grades were a pat on the back or a kick in the butt. Consider these kicks. Crews need not adjust his recruiting and playing schedules to fit my needs. But the national coach of the year is about to have to stand on his own merits once this season goes bye-bye. I sure hope Lancona is more Ellis than Varner. I sure hope Crawford is more Highmark than he is Deiner. And I sure hope Agbeko is more Bonner than he is Newborne. Maybe not to the sdame levels, but on the positive side of the ledger.

Just curious...what were you expecting from the freshmen? With 5 Seniors, plus McBroom, Manning, and Glaze coming into this season, I didn't see too much room for freshmen to play unless they were simply unbelievable. That being said, I had held out a fool's hope that Agbeko would start from Day 1 and be averaging 7PPG and 7RPG by now...

[ACE]

Crawford has already played 32 total minutes this year which is more than Grady played his entire freshman year (29) and approaching the amount Manning played his freshman year (47). We are used to seeing freshman play big minutes because there were no other options. I think most freshman getting less than 100 minutes will be the new norm if Crews can keep the program at it's current level of success.

The idaa of freshman not playing is a tough one to grasp for old-time, long-suffering fans like Taj. Thankfully, we've enjoyed a new era in Billiken basketball the last few seasons. I'm not sure where all of these minutes for the freshmen were going to come from? On a roster with quality depth like we have had for the last two plus seasons, most freshmen are going to have to wait their turn. Now next year will be a little different... some freshmen, particularly the guards will have to be counted on to be a regular part of the rotation. I also uspect next year, some people will freak out when we see a lot of sloppy play and bad defense from the freshmen early in the season.

[brianstl]

Brian I will say this much about comparing those two teams, when watching our team this year that 2006-07 team has felt eerily similar to this. I'm not saying they are the same team, because I don't have the basketball insight it would take to know something like that. But I will say that on paper they are very similar to me. Both teams returned two good guards (MM and JJ versus Lisch and Liddell), and an established inside scorer (Evans versus Vouyoukas). Both teams lacked another true presence at the 4 spot, or much scoring off the bench. Both teams started the non-con 9-2 by beating the teams they were supposed to and losing the bigger challenges.

I think that players like Loe, McBroom, Glaze and MAYBE even Barnett give this team the depth to be better than that team. But right now, that's the scary comparison that keeps popping up to me. We need to keep defending just as well, improve our 3-point shooting to an acceptable rate, and better establish our players' roles within the team in order for me to feel comfortable saying we will have a better finish than that year's squad.

That team did nothing particular well. it was just sort of average across the board. This team is outstanding defensively, but is just pedestrian offensively.

I really can't figure out what we our trying to do offensively. I know Crews has said they want to run more and they have. They are playing at a much faster tempo. I just don't know if that works for the talent we have. We are not shooting a ton of three pointers, but way too many for how many we make. We rank 296 in 3 pt fg% and seem way too ready to settle for that shot. I am probably completely wrong on this, but I think they have to find a way to make Loe and Manning on the inside a bigger part of the offense. It would take pressure off Dwayne and maybe give McCall enough wide open looks on the perimeter that would help his confidence. We are not going anywhere with McCall shooting 29% from 3.

[TheChosenOne]

The idaa of freshman not playing is a tough one to grasp for old-time, long-suffering fans like Taj. Thankfully, we've enjoyed a new era in Billiken basketball the last few seasons. I'm not sure where all of these minutes for the freshmen were going to come from? On a roster with quality depth like we have had for the last two plus seasons, most freshmen are going to have to wait their turn. Now next year will be a little different... some freshmen, particularly the guards will have to be counted on to be a regular part of the rotation. I also uspect next year, some people will freak out when we see a lot of sloppy play and bad defense from the freshmen early in the season.

I think most on this board realized with the number of experienced upperclassmen returning that we would not need to rely heavily on the freshmen, but I think you would have to acknowledge that they have provided less than anticipated to this point. I think most were hoping/expecting one of the freshmen to step up and play themselves into a role taking minutes from Billikens.com favorites like Jake "the Snake" Barnett and John Manning or Grandy Glaze. Some of the more optimistic posters saw Lancona as possibly stepping into the role left by Cody Ellis, Reggie pushing Glaze and Manning for minutes, and Crawford passing Barnett on the depth chart and being the knock down 3 point shooter. To this point none of that has happened and unfortunately it is not because the guys ahead of them are playing lights out.

[moytoy12]

I think most on this board realized with the number of experienced upperclassmen returning that we would not need to rely heavily on the freshmen, but I think you would have to acknowledge that they have provided less than anticipated to this point. I think most were hoping/expecting one of the freshmen to step up and play themselves into a role taking minutes from Billikens.com favorites like Jake "the Snake" Barnett and John Manning or Grandy Glaze. Some of the more optimistic posters saw Lancona as possibly stepping into the role left by Cody Ellis, Reggie pushing Glaze and Manning for minutes, and Crawford passing Barnett on the depth chart and being the knock down 3 point shooter. To this point none of that has happened and unfortunately it is not because the guys ahead of them are playing lights out.

Until his concussion, it seemed like Reggie was stepping up and taking minutes. And if TL can find that early season stroke, I suspect he'll take minutes too.

[RUBillsFan]

That 06-07 team lost their 4th game of the year to Texas A&M 69 to 33. I can't see this team getting embarrassed like that. That team also had absolutely no depth at all. The starting 5 was Polk, Lisch, Liddell, Meyer, Vouyoukas and the bench was just Danny Brown, Justin Johnson, and Husak. Outside of the top 3 for each team, there is really no comparison.

Looking back though, that team did inexplicably have some pretty good wins (MO State, Mississippi, Xavier all at home), but they were negated by awful losses (@St. Bonaventure, Duquense, @Fordham). They basically did as expected W-L record wise OOC. If you look more closely at the point spreads, there was worrisome trends. Once conference play started, their flaws were exposed. Only 1 conference road win wasn't going to cut it.

Tom Timmerman sometimes says you can judge a team by their record in blowout games (we'll say 15+ points). The 06-07 team was 3-2 in such games during the non-conference schedule. This team is 5-0 so far (with a 14 pointer over Wofford as well).