Is Conk the all time most improved player in recent times?

[slu72]

He gets my vote. Others that come to mind are IV, but his development before his outstanding JR year took place the summer he played for Greece in the worlds. But then he took a bit of a dive his SR year. TL did develop an outside shot under UB, but it didn't hold up under RM. KL just made steady progress that was barely noticeable since he was the complete package from the day he arrived on campus. Still, I wish RM had him for 4 years. Heinrich comes to mind, but he seemed to fall off from his JR year to his SR year. Mo Jeffers had a breakout SR year, but I think that was due more to becoming the go to guy after Love departed. You can't teach guys how to fly. Baniak never reached his full potential. He'd show us flashes of what might have been then disappear. For the longest time it seemed no Billikens made the consistent strides that BC has. But also on this team you can see improvement in CE, MM, DE (although it's up and down), and JJ. KM made a big leap his SO year because he had to. I'm not sure where he is on the development scale right now, but maybe because he doesn't need to be the man it's just harder to spot. KC, as much as we all appreciate him, has just seemed to be on a level path. CR's development is still a work in progress. Hopefully, next year is his breakout season, because we're gonna need him. So, all this proves is RM is a BB professor emiritus.

[slu72]

Forgot RL. You can see he's getting more physical, but still aways from being the ideal RM big, physical guy with a nice touch from the perimeter. Am sure his development will speed up this summer, as he seems to be the type who wants to get better.

[Taj79]

I don't think there is much of a competitive basis amongst candidates here.

[Archy McNally]

Yes, Conk is the most improved player of all time. There is several to choose from in the upperclassmen, Fisher, Sloan, Carlos his senior year but Conk is by the far the best.

And everybody always brings up former players that would make good coaches, but for the most part I think it is hard to predict that and I never had strong feelings on that. But I do believe that Conk is the one guy I have seen play at SLU and think "that guy might make a great coach". One thing always sticks out with me - he is maybe one of the best help defenders, but when you sit down low at a game and here him direct the defense, it is like a coach on the floor on the defensive end. He makes others better on the defensive end. He has maximized every ounce of potential in himself.

[MusicCityBilliken]

The improvement of IV and BC were very different.

During IV's freshman year and fall semester soph year I thought we had another Paul Nondas and hoping the Greek Army would rescue us. Then the injuries and health condition of Frericks caught up with him by IVs second semester and IV got the starting position by default. It was like flipping a light switch. No one knew he was such a beast. For 2.5 years he dominated.

BC, came in really raw. He was the kind of player that takes 20,000 shots over the summer and learned how to maximize every little advantage, like proper positioning and foot work. A real joy to watch.

I have to give the vote to BC.

[Clock_Tower]

Hard to argue and say much negative about BC. Based upon the criteria set though - if KL is not most improved bc he was rather good already as a Frosh then I would have to say IV. His freshman year, IV was terrible. He contributed almost nothing except as a slow big bodied practice player. In contrast, BC was a starter his Frosh year who showed signs of real promise before struggling his Soph yearwhile injured.

Id probably rather have BC's senior over IV,s but give most improved to IV.

[Box and Won]

IIRC, Kenny Brown made huge strides in his two years at SLU.

[slu72]

Hard to argue and say much negative about BC. Based upon the criteria set though - if KL is not most improved bc he was rather good already as a Frosh then I would have to say IV. His freshman year, IV was terrible. He contributed almost nothing except as a slow big bodied practice player. In contrast, BC was a starter his Frosh year who showed signs of real promise before struggling his Soph yearwhile injured.

Id probably rather have BC's senior over IV,s but give most improved to IV.

Conk started out of total necessity. If IV had been on that team, he'd have started as well. I'll grant IV made a huge leap, but it was more the summer of Greek coaching than anything else.

[kmbilliken]

Sloan made amazing progress offensively. His freshman year he couldn't score at all. By the time he was a senior he was a threat and a big part of the offense.

[Box and Won]

Sloan made amazing progress offensively. His freshman year he couldn't score at all. By the time he was a senior he was a threat and a big part of the offense.

True. I think he was injured, but I remember people wondering if he was even a DI-caliber player.

[MB73]

You sure cannot say anyone ever improved MORE than BC, even from last yr to this, much less as a freshman to senior.

-his hands are 1,000% better this yr... he would so often be stripped when he took it to the hoop.

-his inside shooting is superior, even compared to last year, he gets the close shots in whearas in previous yrs if he got bumped, he'd miss

-his body positioning was always very good, but now it is superior, you wont't find a forward with better footwork and ability to leverage his body and position his shot

-he even has a nice jump shot now

-he was always intense, but now is godd*am ferocious, the kind of ferocious that provides positive leadership for the rest of the team

We've played great team ball, the whole 9 man rotation, and had great coaching, but this yr BC is THE MAN, he put us into the next level. He was the difference.

What a great story, a tribute to dedication and hard work.

[b.hayes]

Conk is the all-time best player in recent times.

[TheOldie]

According to conk's mom, during the summer he shot 1000 jumpers a day to help his mid range game.

[slu72]

Conk is the all-time best player in recent times.

He's definitely been the difference maker this year, but I'd still have to rank KL, the Bellville Beauty, as being the best Billiken of the new millenium. I just feel sorry he never got to experience a season like this during his Billiken tenure.

[jimbofive]

He's definitely been the difference maker this year, but I'd still have to rank KL, the Bellville Beauty, as being the best Billiken of the new millenium. I just feel sorry he never got to experience a season like this during his Billiken tenure.

i loved KL, but to be fair, he score a dickload of his points on mop-up FTs at the end of games. by the same token, he also iced a lot of games that way. if TL could have gotten his act together, he'd have had a monster career. KM, though, was the man his FRESHMAN year when both KL and TL were seniors. and he scored more per game his soph year than either of those two, or BC did. this year he has facilitated more and still gotten his points when he needed to. he might have to be the best modern billiken. and man, the way DE is coming on... and CE... we just have a great team NOW.

[SLU7881]

_{Some might not remember Bonner's growth as a bball player. Came in Roland Gray and Monroe Douglas were seniors.When they left he became the floor leader, playing both ends directing traffic. His shot selection got better each year and he ate the boards like it was no one's business. He was the main reason the Billikens remained competitive in the next few years, going back to the NIT.}

[slu72]

i loved KL, but to be fair, he score a dickload of his points on mop-up FTs at the end of games. by the same token, he also iced a lot of games that way. if TL could have gotten his act together, he'd have had a monster career. KM, though, was the man his FRESHMAN year when both KL and TL were seniors. and he scored more per game his soph year than either of those two, or BC did. this year he has facilitated more and still gotten his points when he needed to. he might have to be the best modern billiken. and man, the way DE is coming on... and CE... we just have a great team NOW.

If KL was playing with this team and had 4 years under RM, we'd probably be undefeated and the talk of the nation. But that's just a hypothetical. I don't think TL had the discipline to play for RM. Just imagine for a minute a lineup with KL and KM at the 1 and the 2 and on the same page. One of the best 2 guard combos in the whole damn land, I'm telling ya!

[joe_davola]

You sure cannot say anyone ever improved MORE than BC, even from last yr to this, much less as a freshman to senior.

-his hands are 1,000% better this yr... he would so often be stripped when he took it to the hoop.

-his inside shooting is superior, even compared to last year, he gets the close shots in whearas in previous yrs if he got bumped, he'd miss

-his body positioning was always very good, but now it is superior, you wont't find a forward with better footwork and ability to leverage his body and position his shot

-he even has a nice jump shot now

-he was always intense, but now is godd*am ferocious, the kind of ferocious that provides positive leadership for the rest of the team

We've played great team ball, the whole 9 man rotation, and had great coaching, but this yr BC is THE MAN, he put us into the next level. He was the difference.

What a great story, a tribute to dedication and hard work.

Agreed with everything here. Good post. No BC, no potential for tourney.

[bauman]

SLU7881 has the right guy but one big fact incorrect. Bonner came in the year after MD and RG. The young members of this Board won't know much about AB, but he was clearly the Billiken who improved most from his FR to his SN year. Don't get me wrong, BC might very well win that award for players in the past 20 years or so and I love the way he plays and competes, but he has merely gone from fairly good as a FR to relly good and a team leader as a SN.

AB's journey far surpasses that of BC. AB had two D1 scholarship offers coming out of Vashon-SLU and SIU-C yet by his last yr as a Bill he became an All-American who was good enough to be drafted in the late-first round of the NBA draft. Without checking the record book, it's my recollection that he is the all-time leading Bill in points and very near the top in rebounding. Besides that he was an outstanding defender when he graduated. AB far exceeds anyone else that I can recall over the past 40 years.

[slu72]

No argument on AB. I was thinking a little more recent. But if you go back that far, I've no problem with AB. I wish he was more associated with the program actually. Like give him an AC job. Sure couldn't hurt the bigs learning some tricks from AB.

[bonwich]

Beat me to it. Bonner was Missouri player of the year, or something like that, but no one had him pegged as future NBA. And he had his head-game problems as a freshman. It's a different scale (didn't RickMa say something about Conk's "limited talents" in the Senior Night speech?!?!), but I still think AB made a larger leap than BC. (Not to take any love away from either of them.)

The other two might be Claggett and Highmark. Their freshman year was, um, underachieving -- through no fault of theirs.

[Clock_Tower]

Conk started out of total necessity. If IV had been on that team, he'd have started as well. I'll grant IV made a huge leap, but it was more the summer of Greek coaching than anything else.

72. Out of necessity? As a reminder, we still had Barry Eberhardt Conk's freshman year as well as Thompson and Willie Reed. BC started 29 of 31 games and played 723 minutes and averaged 6.1 ppg. BE had started 11 games the year prior and returned that year for his Senior season -BC's Freshman season- probably expecting to start. BE actually scored more than BE at 6.7 ppg but started only 4 games that year bc of BE's play. BT started 7 games and played 341 minutes so he was another option.

IV, as a Freshman would not have started ahead of WR, BT, BE or BC. IV showed us next to nothing his 220 minutes his Freshman year playing behind Frericks (7.79 ppg) and Ohanon (7.71 ppg) and Ross Varner.(2.32 ppg) - not exactly stiff comprtition

[Franchise_08]

Does Conklin have any chance of being 1st team All A10?

[thetorch]

I'm going to disagree on Bonner. Sure he became an NBA player, All American candidate, led the nation in rebounding, all time leading scorer list goes on and on and on. Look at AB's freshman year though. 10 ppg, 9 rpg his numbers went up and down, similar to DE now but bigger, but remember he was playing on the same team as Monroe & Roland, both great scorers and Roland an excellent rebounder. Bonner his freshman year had games of 18-19, 10-17, 16-16, & 21-13. He was hardly a work in progress. He certainly got better but he dominated on day one.

The same arguments used for Bonner are better used for Roland. He was a nobody in HS. Norm wouldn't offer Monroe because he didn't think Roland was good enough to include in a package deal. Roland became a much better player overall than Monroe in the end and in modern times, at the very least a top 5 Billiken & a case could be made only Bonner is better than him since 80.

Disagree on Voyoukas as well. The only thing he did was get into shape. He walked into SLU as the best offensive post player in the A-10. Problem was he couldn't walk 10 feet without needing to sit down. His footwork and post moves were extremely advanced the moment he stepped foot on campus. He did get much better defensively, but he was no Heinrich or Brown inside. He improved his ballhandling and outside shooting but that really took away from his strengths rather than improving his overall game.

I'll take Conklin as most improved. Fisher, Carlos Macauley, Harris, Redden. Have to mention Jeff Leuchtefeld. His freshman year he wasn't on a basketball scholarship, played in just 14 games, was a walk on scrub. Went on to become the Billiken version of Danny Ainge on the Bonner teams. After Bonner left he was 2nd in the team in scoring at nearly 13 a game.

[GOSLU68]

Bonner was 86-90

Gray and Douglas were 85-89

When Bonner started practice his freshman year I had conversation with Putz in the AD department he said if they split gray and Roland the team that had Bonner always won scrimmages.

He was a beast on the boards from day one