Athleticism

[jimbofive]

Many, but not all of you are making it sound like athleticism and basketball IQ are mutually exclusive. You can be a very athletic team and still play smart.

DUNKS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFoJhBlqt9g

[slu72]

I am amazed at how little your really know about basketball. Obviously, you have never played or coached and you just spout out your opinions like you are the oracle of basketball. This team just won 6 games by double digits and dominated teams with your so called superior athletes. Washington has three or four NBA first round draft choices and yet we absolutely destroyed them. Villanova is big and strong and tough and we won big. Oklahoma looked like world beaters in their early games but we beat them by 20 points. The fact is that good tough smart players who can defend and shoot will always be able to compete at a high level. look at Larry Bird and Kevin McHale--they would never meet your definition of great athletes yet they were great players who knew how to compete and win. Even Magic Johnson was not a high flying athlete but he was a brilliant player who saw things that no one else saw. Even last year's NBA champs had an MVP who is not a great athlete but he is a smart player who can shoot who competes hard. Ellis and Low are getting better every day. Conklin is playing fantastic. KM, KC and JJ have proven they can compete with your so called athletes. This is maybe the best set of game performances by a Billiken team in 40 years when you consider the competition and the level of dominance. I want these kind of players not your pie in the sky new recruiting focus for athletes.

+1 Billikan. We are watching basketball like it was meant to be played. There isn't a player on our team who's not improved from last year and some made leaps forward in these last 3 days. Most notably Loe (played stronger by the OK game) and Remekun ( who knew his role and played it to perfection).

[NH]

I am amazed at how little your really know about basketball. Obviously, you have never played or coached and you just spout out your opinions like you are the oracle of basketball. This team just won 6 games by double digits and dominated teams with your so called superior athletes. Washington has three or four NBA first round draft choices and yet we absolutely destroyed them. Villanova is big and strong and tough and we won big. Oklahoma looked like world beaters in their early games but we beat them by 20 points. The fact is that good tough smart players who can defend and shoot will always be able to compete at a high level. look at Larry Bird and Kevin McHale--they would never meet your definition of great athletes yet they were great players who knew how to compete and win. Even Magic Johnson was not a high flying athlete but he was a brilliant player who saw things that no one else saw. Even last year's NBA champs had an MVP who is not a great athlete but he is a smart player who can shoot who competes hard. Ellis and Low are getting better every day. Conklin is playing fantastic. KM, KC and JJ have proven they can compete with your so called athletes. This is maybe the best set of game performances by a Billiken team in 40 years when you consider the competition and the level of dominance. I want these kind of players not your pie in the sky new recruiting focus for athletes.

Easy there friend, quit trying to defend attacks that aren't there.

I clearly said I wouldn't trade the players on our team just to get more athletic. Mississippi Valley State and Harris Stowe are both extremely athletic yet we'd wipe the floor with them. Our guards match up well athletically with most schools but our frontcourt is not that athletic. But they make up for that with savvy and skill.

I'm very excited about this team.

[billikenfan05]

Easy there friend, quit trying to defend attacks that aren't there.

I clearly said I wouldn't trade the players on our team just to get more athletic. Mississippi Valley State and Harris Stowe are both extremely athletic yet we'd wipe the floor with them. Our guards match up well athletically with most schools but our frontcourt is not that athletic. But they make up for that with savvy and skill.

I'm very excited about this team.

No hope what is going on with Cody? Good thing majerus doesn't listen to you.

[ACE]

I hope our opponents underestimate our athleticism, but why do we continue to do it? We just need to stop with this all the "other teams we play are more athletic than us" nonsense. We just played 4 consecutive BCS teams and I didn't see us overwhelmed by the level of athleticism. In fact, our guards were quicker and more athletic than any of those guards. It really hit me when I saw Grooms play against Wash. State and Santa Clara. He was by far the quickest player on the floor in those games. Against us, he was a complete nonfactor.

[slu72]

I think, ACE, that was the point of the thread. Athleticism will take you only so far, like making the highlights on ESPN. But it doesn't guarantee you wins. Some of Dukes' championship teams weren't the most athletic either but they still won. Not saying we're a Duke, yet, but we scheme and play in a very similar fashion.

[ACE]

I think, ACE, that was the point of the thread. Athleticism will take you only so far, like making the highlights on ESPN. But it doesn't guarantee you wins. Some of Dukes' championship teams weren't the most athletic either but they still won. Not saying we're a Duke, yet, but we scheme and play in a very similar fashion.

I am not buying the premise that we lack athleticism.

[SShoe]

I am not buying the premise that we lack athleticism.

ACE, I agree to a point. While they may lack some in size, our guards are just as "athletic" as anybody. I think we give up some on the frontcourt (see rebounding stats), but our guys make up for it with fundamentals and toughness. Either way, athleticism is obviously overrated given the pounding we've given teams with more "athleticism".

[TheA_Bomb]

Let's not confuse being white with being unathletic.

Being in the right position and having good help defense will negate a more athletic player. Executing screens, good passing and moving will shed those athletic defenders. This isn't a decathlon it is basketball and the results have been great so far.

[Clock_Tower]

NH. Then what is your point? Trolls come on to this Board and write negative things about our coach, our team and our program. I get that you are a loyal Billiken fan and that you would not trade any of our current players, but then you write:

We could certainly afford to be more athletic. CE and RL are both below average athletes. The last two years we were unathletic and small however our guys have beefed up now which helps. And you wouldn't trade our skill and iq for more athleticism. With more wons we can recruit better athletes but try and continue with smart basketball players.

1. Why the need to take repeated shots at CE and RL? Yes, they are not local players but so what. You have had an agenda against CE for years. All he does is improve his all-around game, help the team win and now that he is healthy he has regained his shot. As to RL, he is only a Sophomore. He is light years ahead of Brian Conklin (when BC was a Sophomore). Just wait until RL is a JR/SR and you will see him dominate games. Right now, he is continue to develop while playing quite well for us.

2. You start with these opinions of yours: that RM is lazy, that PM is the greatest recruiter, that our team(s) is/have been "small and unathletic". What are you basing this upon? These past 2 years, we have been young and inexperience but not small and unathletic. Sorry, but when I read "small" I assume height. RL is 7 ft., WR was 6'10", CE is 6'8", CR is 6'9", BC is 6'7", DE is 6'6" and now Manning is 7' and Glaze is 6'6". If you mean "small" as it relates to strenght/size, then I'd suggest that BC has certainly gotten stronger as have DE, CE and the rest of the team.

3. Your posts, whether you realize it not, are full of backhand compliments. You clearly are not happy that we don't recruit enough local players. Get over it. Certain local basketball experts have an agenda: to get their players known so that scholarship offers come. Their interests and agendas are not always the same as SLU's. Now, you are actually suggesting that if we continue to win, then and only then will we start to get athletic recruits. I say b.s. We already have athletic players now. Will recruiting get easier with alot of wins, sure it will. Then again, RM has been doing quite well without the wins.

[Billsrmajic]

NH. Then what is your point? Trolls come on to this Board and write negative things about our coach, our team and our program. I get that you are a loyal Billiken fan and that you would not trade any of our current players, but then you write:

We could certainly afford to be more athletic. CE and RL are both below average athletes. The last two years we were unathletic and small however our guys have beefed up now which helps. And you wouldn't trade our skill and iq for more athleticism. With more wons we can recruit better athletes but try and continue with smart basketball players.

1. Why the need to take repeated shots at CE and RL? Yes, they are not local players but so what. You have had an agenda against CE for years. All he does is improve his all-around game, help the team win and now that he is healthy he has regained his shot. As to RL, he is only a Sophomore. He is light years ahead of Brian Conklin (when BC was a Sophomore). Just wait until RL is a JR/SR and you will see him dominate games. Right now, he is continue to develop while playing quite well for us.

2. You start with these opinions of yours: that RM is lazy, that PM is the greatest recruiter, that our team(s) is/have been "small and unathletic". What are you basing this upon? These past 2 years, we have been young and inexperience but not small and unathletic. Sorry, but when I read "small" I assume height. RL is 7 ft., WR was 6'10", CE is 6'8", CR is 6'9", BC is 6'7", DE is 6'6" and now Manning is 7' and Glaze is 6'6". If you mean "small" as it relates to strenght/size, then I'd suggest that BC has certainly gotten stronger as have DE, CE and the rest of the team.

3. Your posts, whether you realize it not, are full of backhand compliments. You clearly are not happy that we don't recruit enough local players. Get over it. Certain local basketball experts have an agenda: to get their players known so that scholarship offers come. Their interests and agendas are not always the same as SLU's. Now, you are actually suggesting that if we continue to win, then and only then will we start to get athletic recruits. I say b.s. We already have athletic players now. Will recruiting get easier with alot of wins, sure it will. Then again, RM has been doing quite well without the wins.

Good post, Clock

[slufanskip]

I just don't get what defines athleticism. Is a running back athletic but a middle linebacker isn't. After all the running back does run faster and probably jumps higher.

Athleticism comes in different packages. Is MM more athletic than JJ? He's quicker and probably faster.

I'd bet if you put all 7 footers give or take an inch in a gym RL would compare quite well in agility and quickness however not so well in strength.

MM, JJ, and KM are all pretty athletic, but all in different ways

[ACE]

NH. Then what is your point? Trolls come on to this Board and write negative things about our coach, our team and our program. I get that you are a loyal Billiken fan and that you would not trade any of our current players, but then you write:

We could certainly afford to be more athletic. CE and RL are both below average athletes. The last two years we were unathletic and small however our guys have beefed up now which helps. And you wouldn't trade our skill and iq for more athleticism. With more wons we can recruit better athletes but try and continue with smart basketball players.

1. Why the need to take repeated shots at CE and RL? Yes, they are not local players but so what. You have had an agenda against CE for years. All he does is improve his all-around game, help the team win and now that he is healthy he has regained his shot. As to RL, he is only a Sophomore. He is light years ahead of Brian Conklin (when BC was a Sophomore). Just wait until RL is a JR/SR and you will see him dominate games. Right now, he is continue to develop while playing quite well for us.

2. You start with these opinions of yours: that RM is lazy, that PM is the greatest recruiter, that our team(s) is/have been "small and unathletic". What are you basing this upon? These past 2 years, we have been young and inexperience but not small and unathletic. Sorry, but when I read "small" I assume height. RL is 7 ft., WR was 6'10", CE is 6'8", CR is 6'9", BC is 6'7", DE is 6'6" and now Manning is 7' and Glaze is 6'6". If you mean "small" as it relates to strenght/size, then I'd suggest that BC has certainly gotten stronger as have DE, CE and the rest of the team.

3. Your posts, whether you realize it not, are full of backhand compliments. You clearly are not happy that we don't recruit enough local players. Get over it. Certain local basketball experts have an agenda: to get their players known so that scholarship offers come. Their interests and agendas are not always the same as SLU's. Now, you are actually suggesting that if we continue to win, then and only then will we start to get athletic recruits. I say b.s. We already have athletic players now. Will recruiting get easier with alot of wins, sure it will. Then again, RM has been doing quite well without the wins.

+1,000 Keep in mind that this kid said that Anthony Booker was better than any of our bigs. He also is still holding out hope that local recruit Connell Crossland will make an impact at TCU.

[NH]

NH. Then what is your point? Trolls come on to this Board and write negative things about our coach, our team and our program. I get that you are a loyal Billiken fan and that you would not trade any of our current players, but then you write:

We could certainly afford to be more athletic. CE and RL are both below average athletes. The last two years we were unathletic and small however our guys have beefed up now which helps. And you wouldn't trade our skill and iq for more athleticism. With more wons we can recruit better athletes but try and continue with smart basketball players.

1. Why the need to take repeated shots at CE and RL? Yes, they are not local players but so what. You have had an agenda against CE for years. All he does is improve his all-around game, help the team win and now that he is healthy he has regained his shot. As to RL, he is only a Sophomore. He is light years ahead of Brian Conklin (when BC was a Sophomore). Just wait until RL is a JR/SR and you will see him dominate games. Right now, he is continue to develop while playing quite well for us.

2. You start with these opinions of yours: that RM is lazy, that PM is the greatest recruiter, that our team(s) is/have been "small and unathletic". What are you basing this upon? These past 2 years, we have been young and inexperience but not small and unathletic. Sorry, but when I read "small" I assume height. RL is 7 ft., WR was 6'10", CE is 6'8", CR is 6'9", BC is 6'7", DE is 6'6" and now Manning is 7' and Glaze is 6'6". If you mean "small" as it relates to strenght/size, then I'd suggest that BC has certainly gotten stronger as have DE, CE and the rest of the team.

3. Your posts, whether you realize it not, are full of backhand compliments. You clearly are not happy that we don't recruit enough local players. Get over it. Certain local basketball experts have an agenda: to get their players known so that scholarship offers come. Their interests and agendas are not always the same as SLU's. Now, you are actually suggesting that if we continue to win, then and only then will we start to get athletic recruits. I say b.s. We already have athletic players now. Will recruiting get easier with alot of wins, sure it will. Then again, RM has been doing quite well without the wins.

1. CE's improvement this year has really helped the team. Him coming off the bench brings a spark to our offense and hopefully he can continue to get better on the defensive and rebounding end it will help even more. I too am excited for RL's progression. He has a long way to go but his upside is great. And Majerus seems really excited about Manning as well so the frontcourt certainly has potential.

2. I do think we were small last year. But like you said and like I said, as our players have gotten older they've definitely gotten stronger. So as my post pointed out, we've gotten better in this area. Other guards can often leap higher or move quicker than Cody but if he's in good position to take charges and continues to get stronger, he can be a decent defender.

3. I'm sorry if my posts come across as more willing to point out my perceived flaws of the team. I don't mean to be negative. At the end of the day I'm thoroughly enjoying the chance to walk around the hallways of SLUH yelling "23rd" as loudly as I can.

[For-DaLove]

1. CE's improvement this year has really helped the team. Him coming off the bench brings a spark to our offense and hopefully he can continue to get better on the defensive and rebounding end it will help even more. I too am excited for RL's progression. He has a long way to go but his upside is great. And Majerus seems really excited about Manning as well so the frontcourt certainly has potential.

2. I do think we were small last year. But like you said and like I said, as our players have gotten older they've definitely gotten stronger. So as my post pointed out, we've gotten better in this area. Other guards can often leap higher or move quicker than Cody but if he's in good position to take charges and continues to get stronger, he can be a decent defender.

3. I'm sorry if my posts come across as more willing to point out my perceived flaws of the team. I don't mean to be negative. At the end of the day I'm thoroughly enjoying the chance to walk around the hallways of SLUH yelling "23rd" as loudly as I can.

I thought you yelled "35"?

[Cowboy]

I thought you yelled "35"?

-nice

-another one newbies won't understand

[bomble]

NH. Then what is your point? Trolls come on to this Board and write negative things about our coach, our team and our program. I get that you are a loyal Billiken fan and that you would not trade any of our current players, but then you write:

We could certainly afford to be more athletic. CE and RL are both below average athletes. The last two years we were unathletic and small however our guys have beefed up now which helps. And you wouldn't trade our skill and iq for more athleticism. With more wons we can recruit better athletes but try and continue with smart basketball players.

1. Why the need to take repeated shots at CE and RL? Yes, they are not local players but so what. You have had an agenda against CE for years. All he does is improve his all-around game, help the team win and now that he is healthy he has regained his shot. As to RL, he is only a Sophomore. He is light years ahead of Brian Conklin (when BC was a Sophomore). Just wait until RL is a JR/SR and you will see him dominate games. Right now, he is continue to develop while playing quite well for us.

Getting local players is about as dumb as "buying local." Why limit your talent pool? Is the MO/IL/AR/IA/KS region known for stars? Get the best.

[cheeseman]

I hope our opponents underestimate our athleticism, but why do we continue to do it? We just need to stop with this all the "other teams we play are more athletic than us" nonsense. We just played 4 consecutive BCS teams and I didn't see us overwhelmed by the level of athleticism. In fact, our guards were quicker and more athletic than any of those guards. It really hit me when I saw Grooms play against Wash. State and Santa Clara. He was by far the quickest player on the floor in those games. Against us, he was a complete nonfactor.

One thing you can not dispute is that these "more athletic" teams have all out rebounded us and more importantly they killed us on the offensive board. I understand that if we make a lot of our shots then that decreases our chances to get offensive rebounds but these other teams are just far better rebounders and that is somewhat attributed to their ability to jump a lot better then us and being quicker to the ball. I am not complaining about us - I am also excited and pleased with our play to date - but rebounding is where athletes ability shows.

[TheA_Bomb]

Our C is often on the perimeter so that may negate some of the rebounding opportunities. OU didn't out rebound SLU.

One thing you can not dispute is that these "more athletic" teams have all out rebounded us and more importantly they killed us on the offensive board. I understand that if we make a lot of our shots then that decreases our chances to get offensive rebounds but these other teams are just far better rebounders and that is somewhat attributed to their ability to jump a lot better then us and being quicker to the ball. I am not complaining about us - I am also excited and pleased with our play to date - but rebounding is where athletes ability shows.

[For-DaLove]

One thing you can not dispute is that these "more athletic" teams have all out rebounded us and more importantly they killed us on the offensive board. I understand that if we make a lot of our shots then that decreases our chances to get offensive rebounds but these other teams are just far better rebounders and that is somewhat attributed to their ability to jump a lot better then us and being quicker to the ball. I am not complaining about us - I am also excited and pleased with our play to date - but rebounding is where athletes ability shows.

Rebounding is as much about effort as it is athleticism.

[gbs]

One thing you can not dispute is that these "more athletic" teams have all out rebounded us and more importantly they killed us on the offensive board. I understand that if we make a lot of our shots then that decreases our chances to get offensive rebounds but these other teams are just far better rebounders and that is somewhat attributed to their ability to jump a lot better then us and being quicker to the ball. I am not complaining about us - I am also excited and pleased with our play to date - but rebounding is where athletes ability shows.

Cheeseman:

I respectfully beg to differ. According to the great Larry Bird, "90% of all rebounds are taken below the rim." Out-rebounding your opponent is first and foremost about positioning. Having a group of kids who can leap out of the gym and run a fast 40 yd dash is helpful (if that in fact represents NH's definition of 'athletic'), but nothing replaces getting yourself between your opponent and the basket at every shooting opportunity.

[Pistol]

This thread is pointless. Anyone who has ever watched basketball or listened to basketball coverage knows that a team lauded for its "athleticism" is shorthand for "a team with a lot of black players". Black guys can only be "athletic", "smooth", "gifted', "explosive", and so forth. White guys can only be "smart", "scrappy", "gym rats", "hard working", and so forth. There is no need for a discussion about athleticism when the rules are already so clear.

[Pistol]

In all seriousness, I'm tired of the notion that SLU is competitive in spite of its athleticism. Have any of the people questioning SLU's athleticism actually watched the games? I never for a moment felt that SLU's players couldn't keep up with those of Oklahoma, Villanova, Boston College or the rest. OU and UW and teams like that have a few more huge dudes who can dunk and pass the eye test of athleticism (which is always loaded) but watching them actually play for 40 minutes, you'd have to be so purposefully ignorant to think SLU has been at a huge disadvantage athletically so far, trying to shoehorn us in a narrative that doesn't fit.

McCall and Mitchell glide around the floor and find holes easier than any guards (except Wayns) we've seen so far. Jett looks like he could play in the NFL and has shown brilliant flashes this season, including almost hitting his forehead on the rim while swatting at shots. Conklin has outplayed every big from every team we've seen so far in nearly every facet of the game. Remekun is leading us in rebounds per minute and has had some really nice boards, blocks, and strong moves to the goal. I hear Ellis is a very good surfer. Evans has not nearly lived up to expectations so far but has still made plays that make me ask, "Whoa, was that Dwayne?"

Every game I've seen this year, I'm impressed with how we match up with the 'incredible athletes' all our opponents put on the floor, and so far we've absolutely forced the tempo of the games. Unathletic teams don't do that, they try to win in spite of their disadvantage. Just watch our games again. We are as athletic as our opponents, or close to it, and will be more athletic than most of the A10 teams we'll face. Soderberg is 5 years gone now. The conversation should not be framed around athleticism, or our lack thereof, anymore.

[NH]

In all seriousness, I'm tired of the notion that SLU is competitive in spite of its athleticism. Have any of the people questioning SLU's athleticism actually watched the games? I never for a moment felt that SLU's players couldn't keep up with those of Oklahoma, Villanova, Boston College or the rest. OU and UW and teams like that have a few more huge dudes who can dunk and pass the eye test of athleticism (which is always loaded) but watching them actually play for 40 minutes, you'd have to be so purposefully ignorant to think SLU has been at a huge disadvantage athletically so far, trying to shoehorn us in a narrative that doesn't fit.

McCall and Mitchell glide around the floor and find holes easier than any guards (except Wayns) we've seen so far. Jett looks like he could play in the NFL and has shown brilliant flashes this season, including almost hitting his forehead on the rim while swatting at shots. Conklin has outplayed every big from every team we've seen so far in nearly every facet of the game. Remekun is leading us in rebounds per minute and has had some really nice boards, blocks, and strong moves to the goal. I hear Ellis is a very good surfer. Evans has not nearly lived up to expectations so far but has still made plays that make me ask, "Whoa, was that Dwayne?"

Every game I've seen this year, I'm impressed with how we match up with the 'incredible athletes' all our opponents put on the floor, and so far we've absolutely forced the tempo of the games. Unathletic teams don't do that, they try to win in spite of their disadvantage. Just watch our games again. We are as athletic as our opponents, or close to it, and will be more athletic than most of the A10 teams we'll face. Soderberg is 5 years gone now. The conversation should not be framed around athleticism, or our lack thereof, anymore.

I've seen this team play about as much as anyone else has so I wasn't making my comments blindly.

My objection comes not when said when we our competing in spite of our athleticism but when people say we are competing in spite of our talent. That really frustrates me as I think this is a very talented team.

[Quality Is Job 1]

This thread is pointless. Anyone who has ever watched basketball or listened to basketball coverage knows that a team lauded for its "athleticism" is shorthand for "a team with a lot of black players". Black guys can only be "athletic", "smooth", "gifted', "explosive", and so forth. White guys can only be "smart", "scrappy", "gym rats", "hard working", and so forth. There is no need for a discussion about athleticism when the rules are already so clear.

Hear here!