? for Xs and Os experts

[davidnark]

Am I correct in my observation that Butler plays a very similar man-to-man as Majerus. It appears to me that both teams closely guard the 3, double off screens with the big men who then quickly recover, and force the defenders to the middle on penetration.

Can someone who has a keen eye for these things explain?

[TheA_Bomb]

I've been thinking the same thing about Butler and SLU regarding the similarities in the style of play. I'm already pumped about SLU next year. 2012 the Final Four will be at Cowboys Stadium I'm ready to have an epic party for SLU.

[moytoy12]

I'm not an x's and o's guy, but in looking at the starting 5 for Butler this year and SLU next year, SLU's talent should match, if not exceed, Butler's.

KM - Nored

MM/KC - Mack

CE - Hayward

Willie - Veasley

Loe - Howard

Our bench will also have MM/KC (whoever isn't starting), CS, JJ, PE, Femi, DE, JS, CR. Wow!

Combine talent, with depth, offseason preparation, and RM as our coach and we could imitate Butler (maybe not a final 4, but a damn good season).

[NH]

I'm not an x's and o's guy, but in looking at the starting 5 for Butler this year and SLU next year, SLU's talent should match, if not exceed, Butler's.

KM - Nored

MM/KC - Mack

CE - Hayward

Willie - Veasley

Loe - Howard

Our bench will also have MM/KC (whoever isn't starting), CS, JJ, PE, Femi, DE, JS, CR. Wow!

Combine talent, with depth, offseason preparation, and RM as our coach and we could imitate Butler (maybe not a final 4, but a damn good season).

I say we have the advantage at two positions and an advantage on the bench. But I definitely think we could've hung with Butler this year.

[moytoy12]

In listening to Dickie V. and Bilas, if you didn't know who they were describing, you'd think they were talking about SLU when discussing the type of offense and defense Butler plays (and in describing the youth of the team).

[joe_davola]

I've been thinking the same thing about Butler and SLU regarding the similarities in the style of play. I'm already pumped about SLU next year. 2012 the Final Four will be at Cowboys Stadium I'm ready to have an epic party for SLU.

Hope you have good homeowner's insurance...I plan to do some stair diving, 'Revenge of the Nerds' style

[moytoy12]

I say we have the advantage at two positions and an advantage on the bench. But I definitely think we could've hung with Butler this year.

It's funny, the 2 games I watched Butler, they looked to play that style that keeps games close (didn't we hear this about SLU somewhere?). It only got them to the final and dang near won the whole thing.

[jimbofive]

Hope you have good homeowner's insurance...I plan to do some stair diving, 'Revenge of the Nerds' style

hahahahaha, i never knew that i didn't own the patent on that move. i call it the Stairpedo®. a couple of years ago, i Stairpedo®'d your brother after an afternoon at the augusta wineries and almost blew out both his ACLs. we were there on mother's day just screaming at each other about who was better, stan musial or lou gehrig. we were more or less politely thrown out of montelle's w/ our "dates"... they were just accessories at that point.

"GET ONION RINGS!"

STAT.

[slu72]

I'm not an x's and o's guy, but in looking at the starting 5 for Butler this year and SLU next year, SLU's talent should match, if not exceed, Butler's.

KM - Nored

MM/KC - Mack

CE - Hayward

Willie - Veasley

Loe - Howard

Our bench will also have MM/KC (whoever isn't starting), CS, JJ, PE, Femi, DE, JS, CR. Wow!

Combine talent, with depth, offseason preparation, and RM as our coach and we could imitate Butler (maybe not a final 4, but a damn good season).

Kind of over the top to put us in the same league as Butler at this point, isn't it? But we're definitely making strides. One of the differences I see in us vs them is they seem to gang rebound a whole lot better than us at this point. Also, we'd struggle with Hayward. They also seem to be a little quicker on D than we are at this point. I do think we might shoot the 3 better. Would love to see us play them next year just to see how we'd do. X gave 'em a hell of a game this year. A game many people thought X got jobbed at the end. If Butler keeps their key players for another year, which they probably will after this run, they will be a big player in the hunt next year.

[cheeseman]

Am I correct in my observation that Butler plays a very similar man-to-man as Majerus. It appears to me that both teams closely guard the 3, double off screens with the big men who then quickly recover, and force the defenders to the middle on penetration.

Can someone who has a keen eye for these things explain?

Yes, I saw the same thing. It reminded me of the woman who sometimes sits behind me yelling at WR to get back and guard your man along with complaining that he should not be out there!. I tried once to explain that WR was helping out on defense as our defensive scheme required but she just looked at me like I was from outer space or something.

[Taj79]

There's only so much one can do on defense and what you are describing is prevalent among the teams that Bill Rafftery idolizes in his "men-to-men" statement at the beginning of games.

Dribble-drive offensive schemes are just that ... driblbe and drive to the basket with a kick out to a cutter or a three point shooter, wherever the help defense comes from. Because the dribble-drive will start somewhere on the perimter, the jump out by the big man forces their guard to bow out further, giving his original defender the chance to catch up at which point the big man moves back to his man. However, you will notice the rotation that is key --- if the big man is the five, then a lower posted four defender will slide over and deny the roll part ofthe pick-and-roll. Of course, that either leaves the four's original man open, or the four is essentially covering two men at once. I think the key then, and what Majerus scrams about in terms of defense is #1) the point defender figthing through the big man pick and getting back to his man, the big man jumping out far enough and long enough to be more than a token obstacle, the four man sliding inot hte void and defnding two and the big man thne recovering and getting back to his man or sliding to the now uncovered four. This is a lot of movement and switching and rotating so it eventually means manning up and boxing someon eout when the shot goes up. I saw Mack and others going toe-to-toe with the behemoth Zoubek last night. Zoubek was winning a lot of those but the swarm rebounding seemed to work well. What impressed me even more than was despite the swarm, Butler was still able to get out and run a few times up the court. This seemed to add to Butler's ability to keep all opponents, even Duke, somewhat off-balance.

Butler showed me a team aspect again. A mix-it-up five, a garbage man four, a star power three, a shooting star two and an adequate point. Plus their bench became that "X" factor some of the announcers said was needed. To me, this is Butler's pinnacle. They should have won last night as I suspect they will never reach that height again. Look down I-70 and say "Indiana State." Its a great story, but without a Jimmy Chitwood, its not "Hoosiers" but more "Gettysburg." We have witnessed the "high water mark" of the Butler program. Duke on the other hand is MacArthur --- "they shall return."

But getting seven points, I won the Last Chance Sweet Sixteen Pool. Thanks a lot, Dawgs.

[moytoy12]

Kind of over the top to put us in the same league as Butler at this point, isn't it? But we're definitely making strides. One of the differences I see in us vs them is they seem to gang rebound a whole lot better than us at this point. Also, we'd struggle with Hayward. They also seem to be a little quicker on D than we are at this point. I do think we might shoot the 3 better. Would love to see us play them next year just to see how we'd do. X gave 'em a hell of a game this year. A game many people thought X got jobbed at the end. If Butler keeps their key players for another year, which they probably will after this run, they will be a big player in the hunt next year.

Didn't say (but maybe implied) that we were in their league. I just thought a side-by-side look at talent was interesting. I think we have nearly the same level of talent. I understand talent does not alone make a good team.

[slufanskip]

There's only so much one can do on defense and what you are describing is prevalent among the teams that Bill Rafftery idolizes in his "men-to-men" statement at the beginning of games.

Dribble-drive offensive schemes are just that ... driblbe and drive to the basket with a kick out to a cutter or a three point shooter, wherever the help defense comes from. Because the dribble-drive will start somewhere on the perimter, the jump out by the big man forces their guard to bow out further, giving his original defender the chance to catch up at which point the big man moves back to his man. However, you will notice the rotation that is key --- if the big man is the five, then a lower posted four defender will slide over and deny the roll part ofthe pick-and-roll. Of course, that either leaves the four's original man open, or the four is essentially covering two men at once. I think the key then, and what Majerus scrams about in terms of defense is #1) the point defender figthing through the big man pick and getting back to his man, the big man jumping out far enough and long enough to be more than a token obstacle, the four man sliding inot hte void and defnding two and the big man thne recovering and getting back to his man or sliding to the now uncovered four. This is a lot of movement and switching and rotating so it eventually means manning up and boxing someon eout when the shot goes up. I saw Mack and others going toe-to-toe with the behemoth Zoubek last night. Zoubek was winning a lot of those but the swarm rebounding seemed to work well. What impressed me even more than was despite the swarm, Butler was still able to get out and run a few times up the court. This seemed to add to Butler's ability to keep all opponents, even Duke, somewhat off-balance.

Butler showed me a team aspect again. A mix-it-up five, a garbage man four, a star power three, a shooting star two and an adequate point. Plus their bench became that "X" factor some of the announcers said was needed. To me, this is Butler's pinnacle. They should have won last night as I suspect they will never reach that height again. Look down I-70 and say "Indiana State." Its a great story, but without a Jimmy Chitwood, its not "Hoosiers" but more "Gettysburg." We have witnessed the "high water mark" of the Butler program. Duke on the other hand is MacArthur --- "they shall return."

But getting seven points, I won the Last Chance Sweet Sixteen Pool. Thanks a lot, Dawgs.

One thing you'll also notice is that the on ball defender that is screened does not fight through that screen, he should initially deny the return pass to the screener while the big forces the ball as high as possible giving the help side d some time and giving the original on ball defender time to recover. The key is the big has to force the ball high.

On the other hand, it always seems to me that if the man with the ball rotated the ball quicker to the weak side and then have the original screener rotate down to the ball side low block with the 4 rotating to the high post it could quickly be exploited. This tactic seems to becoming more and more prevalent and it seems to me that it has to be attacked like a zone with quick ball rotation not with a dribble. With that said, I'm sure I haven't discovered anything every coach doesn't already know or hasn't already tried and found to not work. It's just that while watching it play out it seems easy to exploit.

[billiken_roy]

I'm not an x's and o's guy, but in looking at the starting 5 for Butler this year and SLU next year, SLU's talent should match, if not exceed, Butler's.

KM - Nored

MM/KC - Mack

CE - Hayward

Willie - Veasley

Loe - Howard

Our bench will also have MM/KC (whoever isn't starting), CS, JJ, PE, Femi, DE, JS, CR. Wow!

Combine talent, with depth, offseason preparation, and RM as our coach and we could imitate Butler (maybe not a final 4, but a damn good season).

maybe it is just me, but hayward seems to be one of those once in a lifetime like program players. imo we do not have a gordon hayward.

[JohnnyJumpUp]

maybe it is just me, but hayward seems to be one of those once in a lifetime like program players. imo we do not have a gordon hayward.

We sure don't

[P.B.]

maybe it is just me, but hayward seems to be one of those once in a lifetime like program players. imo we do not have a gordon hayward.

Agree 100% about Gordo.

I think we would have a whole lot of trouble scoring against Butler and they are young but do not waste any possessions like we sometimes did. I think Zoubek was big on defense and on the glass and that made the big difference. He might not be as offensively talented as Willie but I dont think Willie is as big of a matchup problem for Butler. The only thing in our favor is Butler is pretty low scoring so we might have been able to hang around but Mitchell would be hassled all day and our other guards would have problems handling the rock with their defenders in their grill.

[mcglotherirvin]

CE cannot match up with Hayward, who is to Butler what Larry Hughes was for us.

I'm not an x's and o's guy, but in looking at the starting 5 for Butler this year and SLU next year, SLU's talent should match, if not exceed, Butler's.

KM - Nored

MM/KC - Mack

CE - Hayward

Willie - Veasley

Loe - Howard

Our bench will also have MM/KC (whoever isn't starting), CS, JJ, PE, Femi, DE, JS, CR. Wow!

Combine talent, with depth, offseason preparation, and RM as our coach and we could imitate Butler (maybe not a final 4, but a damn good season).

[Guest BillikenReport]

There are a lot of similarities between SLU and Butler.

If all the returning players improve and the newcomers make an impact next season, there's no reason the Billikens can't be a Top 25-type team and have a chance to be a dangerous opponent in the NCAA tournament.

It will be harder for SLU than Butler because the Billikens' conference is more difficult, but it's possible to make some big noise during the next two years.

Don't forget that the players Majerus has recruited to SLU are well aware that the coach took Utah to the national championship game, have watched replays of that game and were sold on the idea that the Billikens could do something special during their time at SLU.

[BillikenROAR]

anyone who thinks that we could have "hung with butler" this year is absolutely insane...

they were better than us in virtually every aspect of the game..rebound better, tougher, smarter, coaching (push), AIR GORDON, have multiple scoring threats....so please don't fall into some fairy tale land where you think we had any shot at playing with them...they would win 10 out of 10 games this year for sure.. im saying we may match up better next year..but to say that this year would be ignorant.. just because we are billiken fans doesnt mean we have to think we could hang with any team in the nation...

[Bizziken]

While I think SLU and Butler share similarities, the one glaring difference is that their guards (Veasley, Nored, Mack) as well as Hayward can ALL handle the ball effectively...and by effectively I mean the ability to dribble out of trouble, take someone off the dribble, and create points through their passing...

SLU, imo, has only 1 guy (KwaMi) that can do that consistently (maybe 2, or 1.5, if you add in Cassity)...

And that's not to say SLU can't develop into a team like Butler

[Taj79]

"anyone who thinks that we could have "hung with butler" this year is absolutely insane..."

Completely disagree. Hung with Butler at Hinkle? Highly, highly doubt it. Hung with Butler at Chaifetz? Absolutely. Even when we were both at our peaks.

Case in point ... Xavier lost at Hinkle on what some would call a job call by one or two points. We lost to that Xavier team at home by two. Would we have won? Who knows but "to hang with Butler" is not out of the question and absolutley not "insane."

[mcglotherirvin]

You're right that we certainly were not nearly as good as Butler, but your post implies Butler would have blown SLU out of the water 10 times out of 10, which is silly to think. We hung with Temple and Xavier. We beat Richmond and Dayton. There was enough parity across the board this year that there wasn't a huge difference between those teams. To say we could not have hung with Butler is ridiculous.

anyone who thinks that we could have "hung with butler" this year is absolutely insane...

they were better than us in virtually every aspect of the game..rebound better, tougher, smarter, coaching (push), AIR GORDON, have multiple scoring threats....so please don't fall into some fairy tale land where you think we had any shot at playing with them...they would win 10 out of 10 games this year for sure.. im saying we may match up better next year..but to say that this year would be ignorant.. just because we are billiken fans doesnt mean we have to think we could hang with any team in the nation...

[Guest BillikenReport]

"anyone who thinks that we could have "hung with butler" this year is absolutely insane..."

Completely disagree. Hung with Butler at Hinkle? Highly, highly doubt it. Hung with Butler at Chaifetz? Absolutely. Even when we were both at our peaks.

Definitely disagree that SLU couldn't have hung with Butler this year.

You know it would have been a low-scoring game. Butler is obviously a great team, but I think the Billikens could have given them a game.

[BillikenROAR]

we hang w/ them at home..we still dont win.. we get beaten convincingly on the road.. still believe we lose 10/10..

ps...everyone must be going "absolutely insane"

[Billsrmajic]

we hang w/ them at home..we still dont win.. we get beaten convincingly on the road.. still believe we lose 10/10..

ps...everyone must be going "absolutely insane"

Wow - I wish I could make that bet - I'd bet a lot of money we wouldn't lose 10 out of 10 to Butler -

If 5 were played in each team's home, I say we'd win two - we'd have a hell of a time with Hayward - that dude is great

The one thing that impressed me about Butler that hasn't been mentioned is that they only start one senior. I pitty the Horizen League next year