One Question

[Orange Julius]

I have been laying low for awhile and just reading the things you guys have had to say lately. I am not going to get into the whole thing about you go back and forth between praising Scott, John, and Bryant and then ripping them. Or how you find it hard to believe that Brett Thompson would not excel in Southern Illinois' system but could develop into a player at SLU. And I am definitely not going to address that goofball that said Brett could play the three, that was just ridiculous. But it seems like no matter the topic or the player the discussion comes back to one thing...Mizzou. I will confess, I love the Tigers I have been a Tiger fan since I was a little tyke and I used to take my Tiger "Rootin Rag" everywhere I go. SLU tried splitting up my loyalty with the Clagget and Highmark years and so on, but I have always been a Tiger fan. Now that I am into coaching and I am friends with a lot of ex SLU players and I even coach with three of them, I have a certain affinity for SLU, but I say all of that to ask one question......

Why does it seem like the Billiken fan's self worth is determined by whether or not you beat Mizzou? Who cares if the Tigers want to do a two for one do it and shut them up, but the crux of the matter should come down to who really freaking cares if the Bills play the Tigers. The Bills want the game but don't want to do whatever it takes to get the game so who really cares. If you feel you are more valuable than a two for one then don't sell yourself short. Be the Bills and who cares about the other programs in the state. But I wouldn't mind a couple of answers to my question about why is it so important to play the Tigers?

[kshoe]

you've been a good poster and I enjoy your insight into the local prep scene but I think you are way off on this one.

1) It isn't important to play the Tigers. We haven't done so for 5 years now and life has gone on. Would we like to sure...if its fair with a home and home. But simply scheduling a 2 for 1 is a concession that we shouldn't have to make and if Mizzou isn't man enough to play then we will just move on, which we have. There has been no serious discussion of a game so why even bring it up?

2)"Why does it seem like the Billiken fan's self worth is determined by whether or not you beat Mizzou?" I always find it funny when a Mizzou fan asks this question. Seems like I could substitute Billiken with Mizzou and Mizzou with Kansas and it is the exact same situation with the only difference being that we aren't in the same conference. Mizzou fans want to beat KU (whether it be on the court, in recruiting, tidliwinks, whatever) because historically Kansas has been the better program and they live among many KU fans. I think SLU fans feel the same way.

3) With the addition of Majerus SLU is now in the game with many of the same local recurits as Mizzou. That is the major reason for the recent bickering on here and Tigerboard. It is evident they now worry about us (all one needs to do is look at Tigerboard to see all the SLU references after they got their oral committment) so the obsession is a two-way street.

4) I can only speak for myself, but I measure the Billiken's self worth by their ability to make the NCAA tourney. But there is no doubt that there is more attention locally paid to SLU when we make the tourney and Mizzou is sitting at home then when we do well and they do even better. That is why I want them to fail.

[Billikan]

I have no idea how young you are so you may not have the lengthy background that most of us have. I would think that because you are a diehard Missouri fan that you would not understand how we feel. In any event but here are some thoughts:

1. Years ago, the Bills and Missouri played but Norm cancelled the series and announced that he would not risk a loss to a local team and he would do nothing to help and everything he could to hurt SLU in terms of its ability to increase its profile in college basketball. He personally said this at a luncheon of Billiken fans that I attended and that he was invited to address as a guest speaker. To say the least, that was infuriating. He made good on this threat and never played SLU again.

2. Yet, even when MU was refusing to play the Bills, most Missouri fans were as arrogant as could be and would always suggest that Missouri would beat the Bills by 20 or 30 points. So the Bills fans would have to put up with the constant barage of negativity and insults under circumstances where the Missouri team would never put it on the line in a game on the court.

3. Then came the three game series with Quinn as coach. Those were great games with a lot of local fan interest and they were very well attended. If you are a college basketball fan then these are the kinds of games you love to see played.

4. The Missouri admin said they wanted to continue the series but wanted a year or two off. That, of course, was a lie and MU did not want to risk a loss to SLU so the series was never restarted.

5. Fast forward to today...our state school, which is supported by the tax dollars from Billiken fans, and their arena was built with our dollars--in contrast to the Bills arena which had to be built with our donations...refuses to play an in state school located in the largest metro area in the state--where a huge % of the state tax income comes from. Why? Because of the fear of losing! Yet, if you go on the MU board you will still see repeated insults to SLU and arrogant --we are much better-- types of remarks. It reminds me of an old has been heavyweight champion who says he is the best but he refuses to fight the No. 1 contender--all the while he insults the contender and says he is lousy and he could beat him easily. This infuriates the contender and it infuriates the Bills. The difference is that MU has never been a champion of anything for a long long time. This arrogant attitude irritates the heck out of Bills fans.

6. Missouri, now acting like the has been heavyweight champ--even though it has never been champion, demands a bigger purse, a fight at his place of choosing, etc. Well, that just does not cut it. If MU want to play a game that many many fans would like to see then why not play a home and home and give the fans what they want? With respect, your attitude is similar to, but less strident than, the attitude of many Missouri fans--"we are better so you have to do whatever we want to have a game". To me that is a ridiculous attitude and until MU plays and beats SLU regularly, it is ridiculous the the MU fans always have a holier than thou attitude about the Bills. My view is that the MU fans should stop insulting us and just have the teams play the game. Then one team or another can have its fans say I told you so.

[billiken_roy]

i agree orange. if mi$$ouri doesnt want to play one for one, fine.

just let them alone. like louisville did to kentucky for years until kentucky finally saw that louisville was an equal if not a better basketball program and they came to louisville to play.

[Quality Is Job 1]

To be the best, you have to beat the best. (Hmm, come to think of it, why, indeed, do SLU fans want to play Missouri?) I think the more appropriate question is, Why do Missouri fans find it so important to avoid playing the Billikens (and Missouri State, too)? Are Missouri fans afraid the Tigers will lose, disrupting their feelings they can claim to be the flagship program in the state?

As you (and other Missouri fans) consider responding to me, understand that I root for Missouri as well as I root for SLU (though now I favor the Bills more than the Tigers, an inverse ratio compared to my leanings 15 years ago).

[jjray]

If the general point of the post is "why the fixation on this board with Mizzou?", then I agree whole-heartedly. I'm tired of the endless Mizzou posts and can't fathom why our supporters go over to the Tiger board to yank on the tiger tail. Whatever, it's a free country. That said, the short time that SLU and Mizzou played each other in recent years was cool. It was a high energy, in-state grudge match that isn't the same as playing Mo State or even SIU (who has a better program than Missouri right now). I'd love to have it back on the schedule. Other than wishing to renew the rivalry and the fact that we compete for recruits, why should they even come up? They snubbed us. Let's get over it and move on.

[thetorch]

Why is this so hard to get?

There are similar situations all over the country? Why does SLU get lumped with this obsession with Mizzou. Go anywhere, any state, the bigger schools in the bigger conferences refuse to play the smaller, sometimes private schools and those schools resent them for it. SLU is no different than anyone else in this respect. Don't come on here saying how we are obsessed if you don't want to say that to fans of countless other programs.

One more thing - SCOTT SUGGS

Best player to come out of St Louis in years and Mizzou and SLU are in the mix for him. Wouldn't that generate some increased animosity between the fans of each program? DUH

[slu72]

Billikan's analysis summed it up best. But the animosity is a two way street. I've been perusing Tigerboard the last couple of weeks, never posting just reading, and there seems to be a definite obsession with SLU since we hired Majerus. Some have called him a cheater, some say he'll be dead w/in a year, and of course our recent signees would never make the grade at Mizzery. It's kind of laughable really. Also, if you review the posts on this board, I can't think of one poster on here whose ever made a derogatory remark about Mike Anderson. In fact, just the opposite as we remember him an honorable opponent from our old CUSA days. Now granted under the Mighty Quinn, we rejoiced in the misery he bought to Mizzery. No one really likes to see a cheater win, and the whole soap opera deal with Ricky Clemons was something straight out of Hollywood. When we last played the Tigers in St.Louis, the press had nothing but praise for the game and urged both schools to continue the series on an annual basis. Alas, Mizzery saw fit to take a few years off and play the likes of Belmont, who promptly beat you in your own house. It's clear why they don't want another program competing for the state's best recruits or a rival for the casual fan's interest, especially the younger ones whose loyalties are in the formative stages. Hopefully, RM does fulfill his contract here and SLU becomes a force ala Gonzaga. Hopefully, Mizzery will find success under Anderson. Such is the case in KY with UL of UK, same in Wash with UW and Zaga, and the list goes on. There is room for both of us, but Mizzery doesn't see it that way. They want the whole pie, and that attitude seems to be prevalent with their Admin, their Alum, their fans.

[Taj79]

... Mizzou plays Belmont and Coppin State and some other losers.

We play Savannah State, Tennessee-Martin and Pacific.

It would seem to be a natural that we'd each want to play one another, don't you agree? It just seems to be a natural but I would also think that way about UMKC and Missouri State.

But it is probably difficult for the Tigers, I mean, how could you even hold such thoughts of grandeur in your own state if you were losing to the likes of these teams? Folks forget about Belmont pretty quickly once they return to Tennessee or wherever they're from. SLU/MO State/UMKC --- the banter would go on all year.

I understand but I don't condone it.

[MusicCityBilliken]

TAJ, Pacific was not all that bad of a mid-major opponent. Except for last year, they had been a tourney team for a few years.

Now, the way things are looking, it is not going get better with RM getting into the scheduling game late in the year.

[cheeseman]

All of the above responses are a part of the answer OJ. However it comes down to one simple matter - As long as one keeps lording over another the one being lorded over finally gets their fill and says OK enough is enough put up or shut up. But, the one lording over you says too bad, I am not even going to give you the time of day since everybody knows I can beat the devil out of you. All this type of attitude does is creates festering that at times boils over and at others simply stays under the surface. Personally, I think the two should play but I have long since realized that MU's actions of not playing show their true colors - they talk a good game but can not deliver or at least they don't think they can. I am happy to play others and if MU ever has a change of character then fine I will be happy to play them but until then, I am secure with myself and my team.

[tiger72]

I think it would be crazy to play SLU right now. Missouri has nothing to gain. If they win people will say they were supposed to win. If they lose which could happen then it helps SLU recruit Saint Louis. All the mid major schools like SIU, VCU, Butler are having trouble getting games with BCS opponents, because the bigger schools have more to lose.

[Box and Won]

But that will basically always be the case, and it's no different than Marquette-Wisconsin, Gonzaga-Washington, Xavier-Cincinnati, etc., and those schools all play each other every year. And what a great attitude to have - "What if we lose?" Smaller schools beat the big state schools all the time, big deal. Indiana lost to Butler last year, but somehow managed to recover.

Sack up and play us.

[cheeseman]

OJ - all you have to do read the post by 72 Tiger - he attitude sums it up.

[AlumniFan]

I hope we never play Missouri. Bad experiences with their fans every time we did. No interest. Nada. Zip. Zero. Do not assume that every Billiken fan wants to play Missouri or even cares that they exist.

"A strong man stands up for himself; a stronger man stands up for others." - Ben

[Clock_Tower]

The basketball teams recover but the pride of the bigger school's alumni and fans do not recover so quickly. There have been many more quality teams to have played these past 10 years than Mizzou. Mizzou really hasn't been very good at all. Sure, they can pull an upset over their hated rival, KU, every so often. Such a win, though, was a regular occurance under Norm.

The real reason SLU fans want to play Mizzou is that the game would provide SLU with an easy opportunity to earn respect.

Beating SIUC (better team and higher rank than Mizzou) or Missouri State each year and beating Cincy, Memphis, Louisville and Marquette (old Conf USA days) does not and did not earn real respect for SLU with the casual fan and the local media. The local media (TV, radio and print) place Mizzou on a pedestal, provide them with much more coverage to cater to Mizzou gradutes and fans who greatly outnumber SLU graduates and fans and even consist of former graduates - Jeff Gorden cannot write a SLU article without comparisons to Mizzou.

While Ohio State wants to avoid XU and now Romar and Washington want to avoid Gonzaga, Ohio State respects XU and Washington respects Gonzaga. Mizzou does not respect SLU. Hopefully, things will improve for us under RM.

[Taj79]

... its not so much to knock playing Pacific as much as asking why we need a west coast team to share home-and-homes with when the locals don't get in here to begin with.

On a Satuday night in St. Louis, we play Pacific and we get the usual 7 to 8,000 regular fans with a walk-up of maybe one to three thousand more. Less if either team is doing less than middlin'. I guarantee you that if Mizzou comes to town, scalpers are getting a couple hundred a seat at the Chai, Savvis is 99% full, or the dome could see 25 to 30K .... its hugely different. That's all.

[GOSLU68]

rather play Illinois and other Big Ten schools if we get bangers and our 4's and 5's can stand up to it; I always root for Illinois over Missouri and I live in the city; I expect if RM does turn us around we will get our ticket punched on the E Side. I really thought we played Illinois well inour last meetings

[slu72]

Wasn't the last time when we had the legend, and we won at the TWA dome? I think it set an attendance record at the time for a regualar season game, right? Something like 31,000+ in attendance?

[GOSLU68]

to play SLU in St. Louis-the intensity of the game and fan base

matched anything that the MO-ILL games offered and obviously

MO has been no match for Illinois the last few years no matter what their ranking prior to the game. And SLU should play them

home and home as Assembly Hall is not the home atmosphere

that the old Huff gym was

[cheeseman]

I wonder if the Illini would really want to play two games in StL in a year? I bet if you talked to Weber he would not want to do that.

[GOSLU68]

I believe anytime we played them we played in the TWA dome and the MO-ILL game was in the Savvis in recent history they played two games in St, Louis and TWA was not our home court per se as we played our home games in Savvis-it sold out for the Illinois game no matter who the opponent and Weber being from

SIU before would have more reason to play us than go to what he would recognize as a mine pit in Carbondale;

Of course once we go to Chaifetz we would have to rationalize staying home before 10,600 or going to the ED Jones Dome for

32,000-I'd say book the big hall and make two payments on the

Chaifetz

[Sheltiedave]

Tiger, this is exactly the attitude that has grown over twenty years.

The three recent games have all been outstanding, and showed there is a very strong competition between the two schools. There was a time when Mizzou didn't care who they played in football, and basketball scheduling didn't hold back much either. The "we don't want to play you" line has grown stronger than the "name a place, date, and time" line to the detriment of both programs. The games make money.

I don't much care for the more obnoxious fans on both sides, but arguing who gains and loses more is a discussion for people wearing skirts. Let the game decides who loses.

[cheeseman]

I not sure if I am remembering correctly or not but I think Self said that he did not want to play to games in StL anymore but I could be wrong.

[Cowboy]

i would be shocked if illinois signed a contract to play 2 games in stl regardless of the venue(s) - even if they had a couple stl area players