Worst team since?

[bonwich]

2 hours ago, DeSmetBilliken said:

Grawer was a very successful coach at DeSmet in the 70s and early 80s. I don't have any first hand knowledge of it because it was before I was born, but I've heard that DeSmet games when Steve Stipanovich (McD's AA, Mizzou star, and NBA player) went there were a huge draw. Grawer left DeSmet to become an assistant at Mizzou for 1 year before he took the SLU job.

Other tidbits: Steve Stipanovich is the father of Sadie Stipanovich, star player on the SLU women's team, and Ryan, who is committed to Bradley. Also, Frank Cusumano was a guard on those great DeSmet teams in the late 70s.

And then, of course, there was the family-home "move" that allowed Stipo to transfer from Chaminade to DeSmet without loss of eligibility.  

[Duff Man]

13 hours ago, Taj79 said:

Charlie was a great guy and great game coach but he did nothing for the program in the long run outside of finally make the NCAAs

Great post, but that's a laughable line. Spoon was a dynamic figure and he made SLU Basketball popular in mainstream STL sports culture. They were top 10 in the country in attendance. They were featured in Sports Illustrated at the height of Sports Illustrated.

Grawer gets credit for saving the program, but Spoonhour deserves more credit for resetting the bar of what the program could aspire to be.

It sucks they ran into Joe Smith in '94, Tim Duncan in '95, and eventual National Champs Kentucky in '98...it sucks Larry left after 1 year...it sucks Spoon couldn't recruit bigs as well as he recruited guards...it sucks the program regressed in the decade after he left...

I know it took another decade for the on campus arena to become a reality, but does anyone really think Chaifetz gets built without those boom 90s years under Spoonhour? You don't build on campus arenas to hang NIT banners in.

Yes, Claggett and Highmark were already in the program but someone had to convince them to stay...Spoon surely gets credit for recruiting Waldman, Dobbs, Hughes, and Love - all of whom were vital for the 4 teams SLU sent to the dance between between Hickey in 1957 and Majerus in 2012.

We talk about how it's hard being a Billikens fan, but rarely in the history of the program has it seemed hopeless - that's because Spoon gave us reason for hope. There has always at least some faint light at the end of the tunnel or reason to believe that things will get better under fill-in-new-coach with fill-in-new-players on the way.

It took the combination of Grawer turning the program around and Spoonhour picking up the pieces and getting them off the NCAA schneid in order to reset the futility clock. If Spoon hadn't finally made the NCAAs, we're not even having this conversation because Steve almost surely wouldn't have registered billikens.com and maintained this community for as long as he has...

[NextYearBill]

Fun Fact: Spoon had his own restaurant in Union Station that was later replaced by Brett Hull's

[Taj79]

@Duff Man ---- I was going to rebut your "laughable" comment but will only agree to disagree.  Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.  And your argument for Spoon is well-made.  Unfortunately, there is no scientific method for finalizing who was good at what -- being that good is a subjective term as well.  The way you explain Grawer and then Spoon make great sense.  I won't argue and I apologize for slighting Spoon.  One of my finest moments in the program was sitting with Charley at the hotel in Birmingham after elimination from the 1999 CUSA tournament, little did we know that would be his last SLU game at the time. 

The reason I don't see Spoon as that "great" is that in the years he did not have Grawer's foundational minions and the gift of Derek Thomas/Larry Hughes, he posted relatively mediocre records of 16 - 14, 11- 18 and 15 - 16. Albeit in a very difficult conference known as CUSA.  That's a composite in those years of 42 - 48.   As for the correlation between the attendance boom and Chaifetz being built ..... I would offer the ten-year distance between the two makes them disassociated and remembered as "lore," much like going to the Dance in those years is wasted on current recruits hardly born by then.  To me, the delay in building Chaifetz rests purely at the feet of Larry Biondi.  Other things on campus were much more important to him and you can't fight city hall.  He who has the gold rules.  Upper echelon leadership at SLU has consistently failed to recognize what an asset a decent sports team means in terms of recognition, inferred valued, recruitment, prestige and NCAA rewards.  Xavier recognized it and built Cintas.  Villanova recognized it and built their on-campus Pavillion.  Gonzaga did the same with the McCarthey Center.  St. John's plays on-campus more now than then.  Butler renovated long-downtrodden Hinkle. 

I think our problem has always been lack of a unified front.  Here is what it says about the McCarthey Center building ... "Two brothers from Salt Lake City, Utah came together on a project. That project helped unify a student body, a university and some would say an entire city.  After the Gonzaga men's basketball team made its epic run to the Elite Eight, Phil and Tom McCarthey, pledged their support to Gonzaga Athletics by funding the building of the McCarthey Athletic Center.  "I was blown away," said Tom, who graduated from Gonzaga in 1973 with a bachelor's degree in English and is currently on the Board of Trustees. "There was a sort of magic about [the new arena] and just the feeling about it brought something special to the school and to the whole city."

Even though we have our version of McCarthey (Dr. Chaifetz) the school remains fragmented in its support of athletics.... all athletics.  roy used to call this the "little engine that could."  I hate that moniker.  Beign big time then seems an aberration.  As you know, I want continuity. 

[slu72]

Seems to me Grawer gets the medal for saving the program, and Spoon gets the medal for making it relevant. I still think one of the biggest mistakes Biondi made with the program was not making Charlie feel more appreciated, ie the ice cream expense account nonsense. Charlie made a connection with the whole St. Louis community because of his love for the Cardinals, his down home accent and attitude, as much as his being a decent hoops coach. Sorry, I missed those Savis/Scott Trade sell outs of 17,000+ those had to be heady days.

I attended a few of the games in Cincy when Charlie was coach and SLU actually had a good sized fan contingent there. Plus that was a heck of conference back in the day, and he made us one of the top teams. Had we been able to keep Spoon around for 3-4 more years and given him the necessary resources, I think today we might have been an X and Zaga type program.  

[Duff Man]

I concur Spoon was a mixed bag to a degree, but no coach is perfect. Even Majerus had his flaws - including his health, which cut his time short.

I know there were many many factors that led Larry Hughes to SLU, but does anyone think he ends up there without those 2 glorious seasons in 1993-94 and 1994-95?

On that note, does anyone think Jordan Goodwin commits to SLU if not for the 3 glorious seasons 2011-12, 2012-13, and 2013-14?

Ekker is the worst. I'm too young to remember it, but the survivors of that era all share a bond that no one else can truly understand.

Grawer saved the program from the abyss. I do remember the late 80s at the Kiel, and despite the unfulfilled promise with the Bonner-Grary-Douglass core and unraveling in the early 90s, that half decade beginning with Douglass/Gray's FR year and ending with Bonner's SR year is the halcyon era in my mind. A lot of it had to do with the building, but Grawer and his staff made SLU basketball as fun as it's ever been.

Spoon picked up the pieces (Claggett, Highmark) when the Grawer train derailed, paired them with a listed at 6'3 power forward named Donnie Dobbs, a point guard with a single letter name who had played (very little) on possibly the greatest NCAA team to fall short of the championship, and a listed at 6'6 center who shared a name with the starting center on the Dream Team...and they started the season undefeated and captured the imagination of the city, shockingly selling out the Old Barn against SIUC, and then repeating the feat over and over again throughout the Great Midwest season, climbing as high as 17 in the top 25, beating Cincy (who'd been to the Final 4 and Elite 8 in the 2 previous seasons) on SR night, and advancing to the program's first NCAA tournament since 1957.

Forget about the following year where they kept it going, forget about Hughes, forget about the miracle in Memphis, or the Majerus rebuild...for my money, that magic 1993-94 season is the single most important season in the history of the program.

Sure Biondi deserves blame for how long it took to get the on campus arena built, and they lost some of the wind that was in their sails under Spoon, but whether you're talking about corporate dollars or alumni dollars, I just don't think the project happens without the Spoonball 90s.

[Bay Area Billiken]

What the Grawer, Spoon, and Majerus Eras show us is that it can be done at SLU.  The problem has always been sustaining the success.  SLU takes one step forward, has a tendency to revert to its inexplicable Barney Fife mode and shoot itself in the foot, and then takes one or two steps back, only to (be forced to) restart the engine again. 

 

 

[wgstl]

The craziest part about this whole thing, think about Mizzou fans. mizzou is in the same boat but with absolutely no future.  Its easy to laugh about this team since we all know that in one year, we could be looking at a tournament team.  But Mizzou could be even worse next year. 

[Bay Area Billiken]

We are blessed during this time that Mizzou has allowed its program to become a dumpster fire.  In reality, Weber, a longtime thorn for SLU, and his K-State program have replaced Mizzou as a recruiting competitor.

[brianstl]

2 hours ago, NextYearBill said:

Fun Fact: Spoon had his own restaurant in Union Station that was later replaced by Brett Hull's

Didn't Spoon's restaurant move to the CWE after Union Station? I think the restaurant was actually owned and operated by Tucci and Ferrara.

[Bay Area Billiken]

16 hours ago, bonwich said:

And then, of course, there was the family-home "move" that allowed Stipo to transfer from Chaminade to DeSmet without loss of eligibility.  

During my freshman year at SLU, 1978-79, Grawer brought his DeSmet team to West Pine Gym for a practice.  We got word of it in Griesedieck Hall and a group of us attended.  Seated in the old West Pine Gym bleachers near us were the likes of Digger Phelps of Notre Dame, Norm Stewart of Missouri, and Dean Smith of North Carolina.  I remember Digger sitting there sucking on a Tootsie Pop.  Digger thought every top Catholic player in the country was his territory, was ordained to go to Notre Dame.

Trying to help the Billikens, our Cellblock 6 sent a handwritten letter to Steve Stipanovich, urging him to come to SLU, citing how great it would be to pair him at Center with Power Forward Kelvin Henderson.

Sidebar, on a Friday night, sometime during my SLU undergraduate days, word traveled down West Pine that the famed Los Angeles Lakers were practicing at West Pine Gym.  Again, we made the short trip.  And sure enough, there on our West Pine Gym floor was Showtime, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson, Jamaal Wilkes, et al.

My Senior year, Ekker's 4th and final year, 1982, highly ranked Mizzou played Louisville on Sunday afternoon on NBC (Dick Enberg, Al McGuire, Billy Packer) the first game of a doubleheader, with SLU playing Tulane in the 2nd game.  I personally witnessed then Missouri Asst. Coach (for that single season) Rich Grawer leaving the floor toward the South Tunnel at the Arena, with Ekker entering the floor from the tunnel.  The two stopped and shook hands. I made a mental note to myself then and in fact had just watched the passing of the torch.

 

[Bobby Metzinger]

6 minutes ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

During my freshman year at SLU, 1978-79, Grawer brought his DeSmet team to West Pine Gym for a practice.  We got word of it in Griesedieck Hall and a group of us attended.  Seated in the old West Pine Gym bleachers near us were the likes of Digger Phelps of Notre Dame, Norm Stewart of Missouri, and Dean Smith of North Carolina.  I remember Digger sitting there sucking on a Tootsie Pop.  Digger thought every top Catholic player in the country was his territory, was ordained to go to Notre Dame.

Trying to help the Billikens, our Cellblock 6 sent a handwritten letter to Steve Stipanovich, urging him to come to SLU, citing how great it would be to pair him at Center with Power Forward Kelvin Henderson.

Sidebar, on a Friday night, sometime during my SLU undergraduate days, word traveled down West Pine that the famed Los Angeles Lakers were practicing at West Pine Gym.  Again, we made the short trip.  And sure enough, there on our West Pine Gym floor was Showtime, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson, James Worthy, et al.

My Senior year, Ekker's 4th and final year, 1982, highly ranked Mizzou played Louisville on Sunday afternoon on NBC (Dick Enberg, Al McGuire, Billy Packer) the first game of a doubleheader, with SLU playing Tulane in the 2nd game.  I personally witnessed then Missouri Asst. Coach (for that single season) Rich Grawer leaving the floor toward the South Tunnel at the Arena, with Ekker entering the floor from the tunnel.  The two stopped and shook hands. I made a mental note to myself then and in fact had just watched the passing of the torch.

 

Dude, holy crap. This whole thing. Amazing.

[MusicCityBilliken]

18 minutes ago, brianstl said:

Didn't Spoon's restaurant move to the CWE after Union Station? I think the restaurant was actually owned and operated by Tucci and Ferrara.

I recall coming in with a few of my old college friends during the Hughes year. Saw the Houston and UAB game at what was new then called new Kiel Center. The Kiel was packed for those games.

We all went to the Spoons restaurant for dinner and it was in the CWE section of St Louis. I recall spending about a 1/2 hour just looking at all the old Billiken memorabilia on the walls. Old clippings, pictures, jerseys, etc.. I wonder who has that stuff? I also recall Heinrich coming in and getting a large 'to go' bag. I had a pasta dish, so Tucci & Ferrara probably had something to do with the place. 

 

[billslasttermdropout]

Yeah, on the other side of Euclid from SubZero Vodka bar.  You know, the good side.  

At the train station, he was on the se lower corner of the 't'.  And yes, the sign on the front of the places said, underneath Spoons moniker, a Pasta House restaurant.

If only Tucci were Papa John, we could have some of that sports nuts money.  You can bet your hide it wouldn't Chaifetz Arena.

[Cowboy]

1 hour ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

During my freshman year at SLU, 1978-79, Grawer brought his DeSmet team to West Pine Gym for a practice.  We got word of it in Griesedieck Hall and a group of us attended.  Seated in the old West Pine Gym bleachers near us were the likes of Digger Phelps of Notre Dame, Norm Stewart of Missouri, and Dean Smith of North Carolina.  I remember Digger sitting there sucking on a Tootsie Pop.  Digger thought every top Catholic player in the country was his territory, was ordained to go to Notre Dame.

Trying to help the Billikens, our Cellblock 6 sent a handwritten letter to Steve Stipanovich, urging him to come to SLU, citing how great it would be to pair him at Center with Power Forward Kelvin Henderson.

Sidebar, on a Friday night, sometime during my SLU undergraduate days, word traveled down West Pine that the famed Los Angeles Lakers were practicing at West Pine Gym.  Again, we made the short trip.  And sure enough, there on our West Pine Gym floor was Showtime, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson, James Worthy, et al.

My Senior year, Ekker's 4th and final year, 1982, highly ranked Mizzou played Louisville on Sunday afternoon on NBC (Dick Enberg, Al McGuire, Billy Packer) the first game of a doubleheader, with SLU playing Tulane in the 2nd game.  I personally witnessed then Missouri Asst. Coach (for that single season) Rich Grawer leaving the floor toward the South Tunnel at the Arena, with Ekker entering the floor from the tunnel.  The two stopped and shook hands. I made a mental note to myself then and in fact had just watched the passing of the torch.

 

-that the Los Angeles Lakers, with what they were at that point, practiced in WPG in or around 1980 is amazing, simply amazing - btw, Bird/Magic final four in SLC was March 1979 so Magic wouldn't be with the Lakers until that fall if that helps you identify when this would have been - jeez, Kareem would have to duck just about everywhere in that building except on the court, he was probably used to it.....I still don't know how he fit in the co-pilot's seat 

 

[Box and Won]

4 hours ago, slu72 said:

Seems to me Grawer gets the medal for saving the program, and Spoon gets the medal for making it relevant. I still think one of the biggest mistakes Biondi made with the program was not making Charlie feel more appreciated, ie the ice cream expense account nonsense.

And lack of institutional support is something Spoon and Grawer shared, manifesting itself in everything from ice cream to Craig Muhfuggin Upchurch.

[Duff Man]

3 hours ago, wgstl said:

The craziest part about this whole thing, think about Mizzou fans. mizzou is in the same boat but with absolutely no future.  Its easy to laugh about this team since we all know that in one year, we could be looking at a tournament team.  But Mizzou could be even worse next year. 

BenFred quoted Joe Walljasper today with the following....

Joe Walljasper of the Columbia Daily Tribune painted this grim scene.

If you haven’t been to games at Mizzou Arena lately — and you probably haven’t — they have become almost surreal, played in eerie quiet in front of the least-judgmental portion of the fan base. Those prone to agitation stopped coming a while back. On Wednesday, the student section consisted of the band and three Antlers.

This is what the absence of hope looks, sounds and feels like.

[Duff Man]

3 hours ago, Bay Area Billiken said:

Sidebar, on a Friday night, sometime during my SLU undergraduate days, word traveled down West Pine that the famed Los Angeles Lakers were practicing at West Pine Gym.  Again, we made the short trip.  And sure enough, there on our West Pine Gym floor was Showtime, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Magic Johnson, Jamaal Wilkes, et al.

So they were in town for a pre-season exhibition at the Arena? Kiel? 

Did the Kansas City Kings pull a Kroenke and schedule a regular season game against a premier opponent in another market before leaving for good?

Was Riley the coach yet? Was Jerry West along for the trip? Jerry Buss? I imagine it was a profitable night over on the East Side or wherever the party was at...

[Cowboy]

-Duff Man, can you link or re-post your game photos? I could use looking at the good times again. Thanks in advance.

[Duff Man]

4 hours ago, Cowboy said:

-Duff Man, can you link or re-post your game photos? I could use looking at the good times again. Thanks in advance.

First game I photographed was vs X in 2010...this was the game Stamos was originally rumored to be at and I relayed the rumor to Matt Sebek who accepted the rumor at face value, regretted that he was out of town, but offered to get me credentialed...

http://timday.net/20100224billikens/

 

[Duff Man]

Dayton 2011

http://timday.net/20110105billikens/

 

[Duff Man]

Washington 2011

http://timday.net/20111120billikens/

[White Pelican]

Thanks Duff Man! Takes me back....Willie Reed in there too. Wow. I wanna get back to those kinda days!

[Taj79]

Just goes to show it CAN be done.  I envy many of young youngsters for missing "the dregs."  And I'd apologize to Bonowich for forgetting him but he called me Fordham University (FU).  NEVER have I been so insulted!!!!

[Duff Man]

Xavier 2012