Is this the worst ever?

[The Wiz]

Well, I don't know.

Let's go back into the Bills time machine. We will type in 8 games and see where it takes us. As we tumble back through the Bills 100 year history the machine seems to be slowing. We seem to be in a strange world that few of us would know or recognize. We have landed on campus. How strange the students dress. Wait over there... by that strange statue is a newspaper laying on the bench. It is a St L Post Dispatch. (you mean they had that left wing Commie rag back then)....OMG...The date on the paper says...Dec 2014...Let's look at the sports section. Oh no ...the Bills lose to South Dakota St. and are 4-4. Lost to a school with a direction and the word State in its title ...not good. Well at least we are 500. Let me check the Bills board. This guy called The Wiz says we will beat SDS by 1 . What was he thinking ...must have a faulty system...He says that SDS is C rated and has played less thab 6 games and has a lack of data . Flimsy excuse, He should be able to pick these games with no data... Who does he think he is ...Descartes??. Hmm...he also says they are F+...what Prof gives an F+ ? (maybe one trying to show mercy) Well at least he got the grade right. Let me flip through the Board's threads and posts....Wow ...very negative...looks like a melt down. Let me scroll to the end of the year...Bills finish at D-. Not much better. Meltdown is continuing. Some say they would be happy if we were a C team next year. Should I tell them we are a C+ a year later....Naw, let them be surprised. Besides we don't want to mess up the space time continuum. I could tell them this is the bottom but they probably wouldn't believe me.

So as I head back to 2015 what is the answer to the question ...Is this the worst ever? Well if we are talking about short term memory...then, yes it is. If we are talking about Bills basketball... then no.

[brianstl]

I am choosing Massey because his archive goes back to 1950. According to Massey we rank 167 this season (others have us higher and some lower). If the season ended today this would be out fifth lowest ranking in the past 30 seasons. Last season was the worst ever. The two season average would be the worst two season average ever. This season we would have our tenth lowest rating ever

So yes this is among the worst periods of Billiken Basketball ever.

http://www.masseyratings.com/team.php?t=6841&s=284067&all=1

[TheChosenOne]

So yes this is among the worst periods of Billiken Basketball ever.

At least we are young...

[moytoy12]

At least we are young...

And we have Calbert Chaney.

[Clock_Tower]

I am choosing Massey because his archive goes back to 1950. According to Massey we rank 167 this season (others have us higher and some lower). If the season ended today this would be out fifth lowest ranking in the past 30 seasons. Last season was the worst ever. The two season average would be the worst two season average ever. This season we would have our tenth lowest rating ever

So yes this is among the worst periods of Billiken Basketball ever.

http://www.masseyratings.com/team.php?t=6841&s=284067&all=1

Brian.

Appreciate the link. And to all the newer Billiken fans, please go back and review the records. If you don't know the past, you are doomed to repeat the same mistakes... See how bad we truly were in 1983. See how many bad years we have had since. Billiken basketball had sure had more awful and mediocre years than these recent good years. This is certainly not a great Billiken team but it is not as bad as many have presented.

And, of course, the reason we went from a no-name, but nice guy making $325,000 to possibly $375,000 (Soderberg) to an NCAA HOF coach with talent that allowed us to crack the Top 10 and make three (3) straight NCAA Tourneys is because of the involvement of Dr. Chaifetz and Novelly sitting down with President Biondi and making a big-time splash hire. We did this once prior in the modern era of basketball when Debbie Yow somehow got us into the Great Midwest Conference and allowed us to lure Spoonhour away from SMS. Similar to the RM hiring, we got a big time coach who was a strong personality and who brought excitement (Spoonball) to the program. Great coaching and top notch recruiting (Spoon rerecruited Claggs and Highmark while adding H Waldman, David Robinson, etc. before landing Larry Hughes, Baniak, Heinrich, Tatum, etc.) and we became a relevant basketball tourney and the NCAA dollars started to roll in.

We should have made a splash hire after RM. We didn't. Now, we need patience to get through this year, try to develop the talent we have and to make this as attractive a program as possible. Sorry these facts get in the way of the Jim Crews and these current players as being the worst in Billiken history.

[kwyjibo]

I am choosing Massey because his archive goes back to 1950. According to Massey we rank 167 this season (others have us higher and some lower). If the season ended today this would be out fifth lowest ranking in the past 30 seasons. Last season was the worst ever. The two season average would be the worst two season average ever. This season we would have our tenth lowest rating ever

So yes this is among the worst periods of Billiken Basketball ever.

http://www.masseyratings.com/team.php?t=6841&s=284067&all=1

You do need to adjust your denominator as the number of D-I teams has changed (you cannot just use the raw rank as this season's 164th* is better than 1987-88's 146th).

*Also Massey includes teams from all division's in later years and there are currently 3 better D-II teams so our D-1 rank this year is 164 right now. This link is what you want and note they have the D-1 denominators for each year:

http://www.masseyratings.com/team.php?t=6841&s=284067⊂=11590&all=1

[brianstl]

Brian.

Appreciate the link. And to all the newer Billiken fans, please go back and review the records. If you don't know the past, you are doomed to repeat the same mistakes... See how bad we truly were in 1983. See how many bad years we have had since. Billiken basketball had sure had more awful and mediocre years than these recent good years. This is certainly not a great Billiken team but it is not as bad as many have presented.

And, of course, the reason we went from a no-name, but nice guy making $325,000 to possibly $375,000 (Soderberg) to an NCAA HOF coach with talent that allowed us to crack the Top 10 and make three (3) straight NCAA Tourneys is because of the involvement of Dr. Chaifetz and Novelly sitting down with President Biondi and making a big-time splash hire. We did this once prior in the modern era of basketball when Debbie Yow somehow got us into the Great Midwest Conference and allowed us to lure Spoonhour away from SMS. Similar to the RM hiring, we got a big time coach who was a strong personality and who brought excitement (Spoonball) to the program. Great coaching and top notch recruiting (Spoon rerecruited Claggs and Highmark while adding H Waldman, David Robinson, etc. before landing Larry Hughes, Baniak, Heinrich, Tatum, etc.) and we became a relevant basketball tourney and the NCAA dollars started to roll in.

We should have made a splash hire after RM. We didn't. Now, we need patience to get through this year, try to develop the talent we have and to make this as attractive a program as possible. Sorry these facts get in the way of the Jim Crews and these current players as being the worst in Billiken history.

If the current season ended today this would be our fifth lowest rating of the modern 64 team tournament era. Last season was our lowest ranking ever. We are as far from being a top 50 program as we have ever been in the modern era of NCAA basketball. We can disagree on who should get the blame, how to fix it, and if major changes are needed. Hell, we can even argue if the goal of being a top 50 program nearly every year is an attainable goal for this program. We shouldn't disagree on how bad the program is right now. That is denying the reality of the situation.

[brianstl]

You do need to adjust your denominator as the number of D-I teams has changed (you cannot just use the raw rank as this season's 164th* is better than 1987-88's 146th).

*Also Massey includes teams from all division's in later years and there are currently 3 better D-II teams so our D-1 rank this year is 164 right now. This link is what you want and note they have the D-1 denominators for each year:

http://www.masseyratings.com/team.php?t=6841&s=284067⊂=11590&all=1

The numbers of teams in D1 shouldn't matter when judging this program's rating. The distance from being a tournament team should be what we are judged by. Adjusting for D1 teams only changes little. Last season was still the worst ever and this season is the sixth lowest ranking of the modern tournament era. This program is as far away from the tournament as it has ever been.

[brianstl]

The only thing that having more teams in D1 now means is that this team gets a C grade instead of a D in 1985. This C team is no closer to making the tournament than a D team in 1985. They have the same number of programs they need to pass to get there.

[hsmith19]

The SRS on Sports-Reference has last year as the fourth worst SLU team going back to 1949. Worse than Grawer's last year and one spot "better" than Ekker's last year.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I was a SLU Senior for Ekker's 4th and final year, 6-21, 1-11 in the Metro. There was legitimate concern that SLU might drop down to D-2. I remember going to the press conference at Busch Center and the relief when it was announced that SLU was staying in D-1, albeit moving (stepping down) from the Metro to the then Midwestern City Conference (now Horizon League).

I was a First Year at SLU Law for Grawer's 1st year. Although that team went 5-23, 2-12 in the MCC, with home court losses to D-2 UMSL and then D-2 SIUe, there was at least hope that Coach Grawer would turn things around, which happened incrementally until SLU cleared .500, going 18-12 in Grawer Year 4. The team returned to Kiel Auditorium for Grawer Year 1. Kiel was a much better venue than the cavernous Checkerdome, with its curtains covering the South end zone seats Ekker's 4th year.

But still, the all-time single game low for me was SLU, with #22 David Burns on the SLU team, losing to McKendree College at The Checkerdome my Junior Year, Ekker Year 3.

Circa to 2014, and SLU is ranked 8th in the entire country. That proves that it can be done.

[almaman]

I was a SLU Senior for Ekker's 4th and final year, 6-21, 1-11 in the Metro. There was legitimate concern that SLU might drop down to D-2. I remember going to the press conference at Busch Center and the relief when it was announced that SLU was staying in D-1, albeit moving (stepping down) from the Metro to the then Midwestern City Conference (now Horizon League).

I was a First Year at SLU Law for Grawer's 1st year. Although that team went 5-23, 2-12 in the MCC, with home court losses to D-2 UMSL and then D-2 SIUe, there was at least hope that Coach Grawer would turn things around, which happened incrementally until SLU cleared .500, going 18-12 in Grawer Year 4. The team returned to Kiel Auditorium for Grawer Year 1. Kiel was a much better venue than the cavernous Checkerdome, with its curtains covering the South end zone seats Ekker's 4th year.

But still, the all-time single game low for me was SLU, with #22 David Burns on the SLU team, losing to McKendree College at The Checkerdome my Junior Year, Ekker Year 3.

Circa to 2014, and SLU is ranked 8th in the entire country. That proves that it can be done.

BAB where does the Morehead state game rank in your all-time worst single game list?

[willie]

The first half of Morehead would rank in my top 10 crappers. BAB's McKendree would be at or near the top. An overtime win against Blackburn in west pine gym is in there somewhere. A 40 point loss to Georgia Tech on national TV stands out and of course the record low point total. Lots to choose from.

[Bay Area Billiken]

BAB where does the Morehead state game rank in your all-time worst single game list?

Morehead State has to rank among the 10 worst. It was that unexpected. I sat down and looked for the halftime score, 38-15. What?

McKendree was very bad, but was a close game. I was at that Blackburn game at West Pine Gym Willie cited. SLU trailed by 10 at halftime and was booed off the court. But the Billikens rallied to win by 13 in double OT, with Tony Brown having his greatest game as a Billiken.

I wish we could return to 2, 3, 4 years ago. SLU was ranked 8th in the entire country at one point just 2 seasons ago.

[ACE]

The first half of Morehead would rank in my top 10 crappers. BAB's McKendree would be at or near the top. An overtime win against Blackburn in west pine gym is in there somewhere. A 40 point loss to Georgia Tech on national TV stands out and of course the record low point total. Lots to choose from.

NOTHING is worse than getting slapped around at our place by SEMO in the Sodie era. I worked in the can collecting business with a SEMO guy and I had to listen to that fool for weeks. The game was embarrassing. We were never in it.

[Bay Area Billiken]

NOTHING is worse than getting slapped around at our place by SEMO in the Sodie era. I worked in the can collecting business with a SEMO guy and I had to listen to that fool for weeks. The game was embarrassing. We were never in it.

I was at that SEMO game you reference too. My goodness.

However, the Sons of Majerus years proved SLU can have a nationally ranked basketball team. I can't regard those years as flukes.

How can it be a sin to be negative about what has happened since? We don't want to go back to the Ekker Era.

I recall 3,200 and change was announced for #1 ranked DePaul my Senior year. We don't want to go back there.

So when there is dissent, that dissent is a good thing.

[willie]

Morehead State has to rank among the 10 worst. It was that unexpected. I sat down and looked for the halftime score, 38-15. What?

McKendree was very bad, but was a close game. I was at that Blackburn game at West Pine Gym Willie cited. SLU trailed by 10 at halftime and was booed off the court. But the Billikens rallied to win by 13 in double OT, with Tony Brown having his greatest game as a Billiken.

I wish we could return to 2, 3, 4 years ago. SLU was ranked 8th in the entire country at one point just 2 seasons ago.

Tony Brown? I remember Paul Jansen having his career game.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Tony Brown? I remember Paul Jansen having his career game.

I remember Tony Brown scoring over 20 points in that game, something like 23 or 24 points. It was a weekday afternoon game at West Pine Gym, as Coach Grawer was trying to stimulate interest in the team on campus.

There was another weekday matinee that season against Greenville College, with SLU winning that one easily, like 79-59.

Another classic was an overtime thriller in the 40's, something like 48-45, at UMSL during the Grawer years. We made the trek out there and sat behind the basket. SLU prevailed, Thank God.

I had left for the Golden State by the time SLU was asked to help open the renovated Wash U Fieldhouse. That game was close for awhile, but the Billikens prevailed over the dreaded Battling Bears 68-50. Coach Grawer said SLU could never be back.

I painted at SLU the summer after Ekker, with Coach Grawer having been hired. Grawer had West Pine Gym painted, and brought out the old Missouri Valley Conference banners, Wichita, Tulsa, et al.

[Taj79]

Grawer's last year included a freshman class of Claggett, Highmark, Winfield and Bickle. There might have been someone else. Winfield left with Dad Lee for Mizzou when Grawer got canned. I think Bickle quit. The other might have been Ryan Grant from Effingham who sustained a career-ending injury. So I'd disagree that Spoon "recruited" Claggett and Highmark as Clock Tower says. Unless you want to debate "re-recruited." But I never heard that as I did when Romar had to re-recruit Marque Perry. Spoon almost exclusively went the JUCO route with Dobbs, Robinson, Campbell and Turner. He added transfer Waldman from UNLV so I'll credit Spoon. But Hughes came mostly (I was told) because of the assistant coach and brought Eagle teammates Bainak, Tatum and Redden with him. Heinrich I believe they picked up off the AAU circuit because of Hughes. I have been told Spoon was a somewhat lazy recruiter ergo Cranford, Caswell and Adkins to name a few. In his last years, rumor was he took guys sight unseen.

Spoon was a great regional hire at the time and was a personality unto himself. But his hire was nowhere close to the Majerus bolt of lightning. Yow did what had to be done and Charlie worked then. Plus with Charlie's game coaching, you never felt you were out of it at home. Spoon tired of the Biondi politics and retired. Majerus tired of the same but died taking his choice of free will away.

[Bay Area Billiken]

I'm for SLU, want SLU to win, no question. I rooted for the Billikens when Ekker was the Coach, before that during the one season of Ron Coleman. I even remember Bob Polk vaguely, and Randy Albrecht. I'll always root for the Billikens.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Grawer's last year included a freshman class of Claggett, Highmark, Winfield and Bickle. There might have been someone else. Winfield left with Dad Lee for Mizzou when Grawer got canned. I think Bickle quit. The other might have been Ryan Grant from Effingham who sustained a career-ending injury. So I'd disagree that Spoon "recruited" Claggett and Highmark as Clock Tower says. Unless you want to debate "re-recruited." But I never heard that as I did when Romar had to re-recruit Marque Perry. Spoon almost exclusively went the JUCO route with Dobbs, Robinson, Campbell and Turner. He added transfer Waldman from UNLV so I'll credit Spoon. But Hughes came mostly (I was told) because of the assistant coach and brought Eagle teammates Bainak, Tatum and Redden with him. Heinrich I believe they picked up off the AAU circuit because of Hughes. I have been told Spoon was a somewhat lazy recruiter ergo Cranford, Caswell and Adkins to name a few. In his last years, rumor was he took guys sight unseen.

Spoon was a great regional hire at the time and was a personality unto himself. But his hire was nowhere close to the Majerus bolt of lightning. Yow did what had to be done and Charlie worked then. Plus with Charlie's game coaching, you never felt you were out of it at home. Spoon tired of the Biondi politics and retired. Majerus tired of the same but died taking his choice of free will away.

In Clock's defense, I'm sure he said, "re-recruited." Rumor was that Highmark was seriously considering transferring to Mizzou (and that was well before the Winfields went there [Julian originally opted for Kansas]) and Claggett was seriously considering transferring to Northern Iowa.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Grawer's last year included a freshman class of Claggett, Highmark, Winfield and Bickle. There might have been someone else. Winfield left with Dad Lee for Mizzou when Grawer got canned. I think Bickle quit. The other might have been Ryan Grant from Effingham who sustained a career-ending injury. So I'd disagree that Spoon "recruited" Claggett and Highmark as Clock Tower says. Unless you want to debate "re-recruited." But I never heard that as I did when Romar had to re-recruit Marque Perry. Spoon almost exclusively went the JUCO route with Dobbs, Robinson, Campbell and Turner. He added transfer Waldman from UNLV so I'll credit Spoon. But Hughes came mostly (I was told) because of the assistant coach and brought Eagle teammates Bainak, Tatum and Redden with him. Heinrich I believe they picked up off the AAU circuit because of Hughes. I have been told Spoon was a somewhat lazy recruiter ergo Cranford, Caswell and Adkins to name a few. In his last years, rumor was he took guys sight unseen.

Spoon was a great regional hire at the time and was a personality unto himself. But his hire was nowhere close to the Majerus bolt of lightning. Yow did what had to be done and Charlie worked then. Plus with Charlie's game coaching, you never felt you were out of it at home. Spoon tired of the Biondi politics and retired. Majerus tired of the same but died taking his choice of free will away.

Yes, Highmark and Claggett were both Grawer recruits. I recall there was some re-recruitment by Spoon involved with Highmark. Ryan Grant was that player you reference, Taj.

I saw that team lose at Santa Clara in Melvin "Big Chill" Robinson's last game. He fouled out and literally walked off the court, all 7 feet of him.

I'm planning to be at the SIU game Monday night. This has already reminded me of SLU's real coming out party, the night SLU went to the next level, in Spoon Year 2. It was SLU hosting SIU at The Arena. We had dinner at Caleco's on Laclede (I still miss that place), one of our old stomping grounds. My old roommate asked me how many fans I thought would be at that game that night. I responded, maybe 10,000. So we got to our seats, and the fans kept arriving. I looked to my left, and the workers were removing the old yellow covers (like long drapes) that covered the few high rows of seats in the rafters in the north end zone. That brought a tear or two to my eyes. I couldn't believe it. There were over 17,000 fans at that game.

It can be done at SLU. All the issues have been well documented.

[slu72]

I'm for SLU, want SLU to win, no question.

But again, I still want SLU to win. I rooted for the Billikens when Ekker was the Coach, before that during the one season of Ron Coleman. I even remember Bob Polk vaguely, and Randy Albrecht. I'll always root for the Billikens, no matter who is the coach.

Bob Polk came to SLU my FR year in 69 and had a great run. Going to summer school I finished In three years, his last year, and we were really competitive in a very solid MVC ( UL, UC, Memphis, WSU) which was BB centric. After graduating I know he left for Rice, but don't know why. We played 1 year in the cavernous Checkerdome and the biggest crowds were for ND and Marquette. Then moved to Kiel which was way more friendly. Those were good teams and definitely NIT quality, but never made it. Still those years made Billiken hoops a big part of my life.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Bob Polk came to SLU my FR year in 69 and had a great run. Going to summer school I finished In three years, his last year, and we were really competitive in a very solid MVC ( UL, UC, Memphis, WSU) which was BB centric. After graduating I know he left for Rice, but don't know why. We played 1 year in the cavernous Checkerdome and the biggest crowds were for ND and Marquette. Then moved to Kiel which was way more friendly. Those were good teams and definitely NIT quality, but never made it. Still those years made Billiken hoops a big part of my life.

I was still young, but do remember reading about those Billikens in Street and Smith's and watching them on the Missouri Valley Game of the Week, which came on at 12:30 on Saturday afternoons on Channel 2 in St. Louis, then the ABC station, with Easy Ed Macauley providing the unbiased game commentary about "St. Louis University." SLU had very good teams, and I don't know why those Billiken teams at least didn't get NIT invitations. There was the famous playoff game vs. Louisville played at old Robertson Fieldhouse (the infamous airplane hangar) in Peoria, when SLU, Louisville, and Drake tied for the MVC regular season title. SLU had great players in Harry Rogers, Jim Irving. I remember other good SLU players like Rich Stallworth, Carlos Martinez.

Later into the middle '70's, I remember watching a SLU game on TV vs. DePaul from old Kiel Auditorium, with few fans present due to an ice storm. Lewis McKinney was a big star.

When I visited SLU in 1978 as a High School Senior, I was there for one of SLU's 7 victories that year, over Tulane, as the Billikens were led by #32 freshman Rickey Frazier, along with Senior Carl Johnson, and freshman guard Mark Alcorn. Those were good players. I was amused when the SLU Jazz Band repeatedly played "Three Blind Mice" after questionable calls from the men in striped shirts.

When I was an undergraduate at SLU, the star players under Ekker were #32 Kelvin Henderson and #22 David Burns.

What is commonly known as the Dark Ages of Billiken Basketball lasted from 1974-1985. We do not want to go back there.

[billikenfan05]

20 point game