early saturday rambling roy in all lower case, no initials, who couldn’t care less about spelling and grammar errors end of the season

[billiken_roy]

systems

there was a thread this past week that dealt with the observations of mbm’s opinions of the differences between rickma and crews systems for the program. it is my opinion that this notion that coaches have a “system” is pretty much b.s. i guess we could say it is just a way of describing the approach a coach has towards basketball in general or the way their players actually play, but to think a coach has a magic system of diverse and complex sets and plays in my opinion is pretty much nonsense.

most college coaches this day and age run a motion offense or the now famed 4 out and 1 in dribble drive offense or if they really don’t have a traditional center and five good players with the ball they take the dribble drive premise and make it a 5 out and none in. even those that still run the old pick and roll offenses with set rules, know there are no secrets to this “system” that guarantee’s success. the opposing coaches all know what is going on and what the results will likely be.

the differences come with the practice. the precision and recognition ability of the players concerned. You all know i didn’t like rickma. but that wasn’t because of his basketball teaching. it was because of his intercommunication skills of everyone around him. from a basketball standpoint i have always had nothing but respect for his results and what he develops. i don’t like some of the ways he gets there, but no one can deny what he ends up with when you think about all those years at utah and the three successful years we recently experienced at slu were pretty much because of what rickma set up in preparation efforts.

it has to do with repetitions at practice to the point of ridiculous. most coaches don’t have the patience or see the need to go over things a million times or make a big deal about “six inches”. majerus did. and there is no denying it made a difference. most coaches might scout an opponent before the game or assign a team for an assistant to watch. majerus would take that a step further and devote his own time to checking the tape and reviewing the notes adnauseum and then pounding that into the assistants and players where they knew tendencies and strengths and weaknesses better than the team they were watching.

now if you call that attention to detail, that level of precision, that level of repetition a “system”, then there is indeed a big difference in rickma’s system vs crews system. my view is that majerus just put in more time and forced his players to focus at a different level than what crews does. i don’t know this, but i am betting a lot of crews own playing success was a matter that he just did the little things when he played for booby. that attention to detail probably came natural to him and he in turn has a hard time accepting and realizing that the typical player has to be prodded and pushed and convinced to give that same effort and focus. unfortunately for crews, he was behind quinn buckner and bobby wilkerson who not only possessed the same level of focus but also were superior basketball players thus crews picked the wrong time to be a hoosier and spent his iu career as their backup. i guess though being a backup on the last undefeated college basketball team in 40 years isn’t all bad.

rickma never took anything for granted. he indeed pushed players, coaches, managers, alumni, anyone around the billikens/utes to buy in as he did or go elsewhere. and thus the far different results. Ironically I think a lot of people think that was because he was some sort of genius and his players had this series of complex offenses and defenses they were forced to learn to the nth degree. i doubt it. they just did things right. they out worked their opponents and executed on both ends of the floor the little details that end up making the difference.

Sadly, there is no system that can be installed that will return to what we got the last two years. we can’t run plays and sets that makes us win. the difference is getting the right kids in place that buy in and then execute. the buy in involves a lot of work and sacrifice and the right level of kids. every successful coach has that, just a different mix. not sure if we can achieve that again with our current components. and i am not just talking about the players. something has to change. probably more than any of us can imagine. right now i say we are close to if not back to the days of ekker. how quickly things can change?

Juco transfers

of course we had the thread dealing with juco transfers again. it cannot be stated enough that a juco transfer in this day and age with the current ncaa rules has to have enough existing credits that fit in an existing slu major to be able to be on pace to graduate within the ncaa limits. as someone correctly stated this is a tremendous advantage to the state schools that have far more major programs to offer than the private institutions that are far more focused on academics than athletics like saint louis university. are there juco’s out there that can fit that criteria for slu? probably, but you can also bet that the competition to get that particular juco recruit is heavy. the last few juco recruits that rickma chased, josh harrelson and lance stemler come to mind, were also heavily recruited by state schools that i am sure were bombarded with all the advantages of coming to their school vs slu. we lost on both to indiana and kentucky. (ironically, both players in my opinion would have been so much more involved in the end result at slu than they were at their choices (yeah i know josh did have big senior season)) but still the point is that getting the right juco is always going to be a very tough battle to win. you have to question if it is worth the effort.

In closing….

so what went went wrong with the billikens this season? so many predicted 20+ wins and ncaa tourney returns. while i wasn’t posting at the beginning of the season, i can tell you i expected a 500 season. i don’t think anyone expected the last place finish in the conference and barely double digit wins. well my belief is that it is just too tough to overcome no upper classmen that are truly the best players and the team leaders for most winning seasons. sure the likes of kentucky wins with freshmen, but if you look at the top 100 teams this season and most every season, the vast majority are winning with extremely successful seniors and juniors leading the way. by year end our seniors were contributing pretty much nothing and our juniors were painful to watch. even our sophomores really looked more like freshmen than sophomores.

with all that going on, the freshmen, most of which were the stars of their high school teams, were trying to step up and be the man and then frustrated when they didn’t get the results they were used to experiencing in their pre college days. it is a special freshmen that can night in and night out carry a team like hughes did. that is a once in a lifetime player that if you think about it, hughes is our only one in like……..ever. instead all this underachievement and frustration probably resulted in team jealously, resentment, etc. chemistry was bound to suffer. and i don’t know if john wooden could have done much more. am i letting crews off the hook? Well no, he brought the players in. he is the one that didn’t emphasize the little details and focus and repetition early in the year. he has to take the lion’s share of the blame. not for the seniors and juniors but for the development or lack thereof of the freshmen and sophomores.

but the players and assistant coaches are not exempt either. my gosh they aren’t seventh graders. they are young adults that need to respond to the pleas and demands of their coach. sulking and not listening isn’t going to bring success to the team or themselves. If anything it only gives the coach an excuse to say “see xyz isn’t mature enough to carry the load” and that endorses the coaches decision for benching or a position change or whatever the reaction was for the coach vs the player(s). if the players cannot accept that, maybe they should find someone else to coddle them or find a level where their skills and results are acceptable.

crews is going to get another year. but i would be shocked and disappointed if another year of the same could be tolerated. hopefully he is open minded enough to also realize that the typical freshmen isn’t going to be senior jett or senior evans from day one. but when I see screens being set and utilized and defended as poorly as the billikens did this past year, I cant see how the coaching staff could argue that the little details, the repetition, the focus efforts were there this year. gotta go back to square one. and EVERYONE involved with this program has to make major changes. if not, next year is going to be the same thing all over again. as my good friend taj likes to say, “I cant wait”.

[slu72]

I can wait. It's gonna take a little time to get over all the ugly ball we witnessed this year. Basically agree with your take on systems and executing the little details that win games. There's no mystery to playing solid man to man defense, you keep your man in front and if you lose him you find another man to cover since someone's going to provide help and leave his man open. I think this concept was lost on our youngsters.

[Aquinas]

I appreciate your thoughts in this post. Have to agree with most of what you said, though I suspect the "right now i say we are close to if not back to the days of ekker." is an over statement. I really didn't start following the team until the year Grawer took over. While our current Sagarin rating may be at that level, I believe the quality of the freshman is far above the player levels that we had in those days.

Crews had his hands full this season. Any chance we had for even a 500 season was doomed when we had to have 3 and sometimes 4 freshman on the floor at the same time. Too many inexperienced players learning to adjust to the speed and athleticism of Div.1 BB. It was especially a hit at the 5 spot. Very few freshman can come in and have a big impact as a center. They rarely have the body and coordination to do that as freshman. That said, our freshman bigs show potential, but no way a young man like Gilman is ready to bang around at his current weight.

I think the key is these guys buying into the work they need to do in the weight room and on the practice floor. As they start playing more as a team, they will recognize and exploit more favorable match-ups.

[Taj79]

I am torn between waiting and not waiting. While I can't really say the level of the program is back to the ekker days, the symbolism is not lost on me. However, as I saw just about every game this season except for maybe four, I can wait because that means I don't have to watch this circus any more.

My concerns are indeed the lack of attention to detail you saw ---- you can single out Marcus Bartley and his demonstrated inability to use a screen properly but he is just an example of the whole. The rebounding. The jump shooting. The free throw shooting. The turnovers. The lackadaisical defense. The "Beats Me" offense. I do need a break and can indeed wait.

Until the final dust settles on this season, we just won't know. Who leaves? Does anyone leave? Who comes in? Does anyone come in? And of course the requisite pumping up of unknown stats and credentials proclaiming so-and-so as the answer (Neufeld, for example). Right now, instead of can't wait, I'm at don't care. I will re-energize eventually but that had to be the most exasperating season in a while. And it was amplified given where we had been the last three years. Time to move on, in many respects, by many different angles and people.

By the way ... current final KenPom ............................. drum roll ....................... #294.

[GOSLU68]

this year we could not catch a break, a cold, a basketball. early on I thought the new coaches would coach these young men up in a hurry. grandly glaze was certainly missed because he had no quit in him. however, if gg was with us would agbeko have had two, three four chances to get out of the doghouse? cheaney may have landed yarbrough; however, if he leaves will he take him with him? yarbrough wanted to bond with yacoubou. did anyone else show signs of wanting to play with his teammates?

my take on this season compared to the majerus ball we were used to: steals down, assists down, passing down, play making down, defense down, scoring down, rebounding down, setting picks down, shooting behind a pick down, ball control down, inbound plays down, substitutions down, time outs down, selection of starters best suited to play against opponents down, getting team ready to play down, half time adjustments down, fan appreciation down, results down, scheduling down. did i leave something out? if there was a surprisingly good thing that happened i think i missed it. not wow, not woah, just woe.

[Schasz]

I did not watch many of the games this year. I figured it would be a tough year what with relying on the inexperienced Frosh players so much, but any comparison to the RE coached teams is IMHO a reach. When I was watching the games there were times when I saw talent in the Frosh players. Yes, they have to hit the weight room hard and work on their basketball skills. I'll give Crews a mulligan on this season but not a free pass. He and the team will have to show more than incremental improvement next season. Not living in the Lou I have no idea about what the new Administration thinks about the mens hoops program. We may find out next season if there is a repeat of the 2014-2015 season.

[WestCoastBilliken]

I did not watch many of the games this year. I figured it would be a tough year what with relying on the inexperienced Frosh players so much, but any comparison to the RE coached teams is IMHO a reach. When I was watching the games there were times when I saw talent in the Frosh players. Yes, they have to hit the weight room hard and work on their basketball skills. I'll give Crews a mulligan on this season but not a free pass. He and the team will have to show more than incremental improvement next season. Not living in the Lou I have no idea about what the new Administration thinks about the mens hoops program. We may find out next season if there is a repeat of the 2014-2015 season.

We are dead last in the A10.

[Clock_Tower]

Roy. As always, excellent comments. And for the most part, I agree with you. As you mention, there are certain basics/fundamentals with the motion offense and teams which have success running it usually have precision (attention to detail and repetition is required) as well as athletic ability (the players need to make the open baskets, layups, etc.). In short, RM's early teams at SLU started running the offense with precision but lacked the talent to make the shots, etc. Over time, the talent levels increased, the repetitions and precision also increased and the results were truly impressive. Obviously, this year's team lacked both the precision and the talent. And while the talent will get more experienced, stronger, smarter, etc., I have real doubts if Coach Crews and staff can teach the high level precision which is required to get us back to the NCAA Tourney soon.

At the same time, another large factor is missing from this discussions and needs to be mentioned as well. RM had a larger plan for the team/program not only for the year at hand but also for the next few years. RM got players who complemented each other and who had different strengths. When these guys melded together into his larger plan, it produced a team which was greater than the sum of its individual parts. To me, that is/has been missing under Jim. Crews. For instance, Dwayne Evans was only 6'4" but he played great when matched with a stretch 4 (Cody Ellis). Without Ellis last year, Evans struggled abit as we watched him battled opposing 4's who were bigger and stronger and while Evans held his own, we never really saw his mid range jump shot much less 3 point shot last year. Evans certainly did not become a worse player or regress his Senior year but instead I suggest that his skills did not complement those of Reggie, Glaze or Tanner. Maybe Crews had a plan in which Tanner would be the next Ellis - and if so, that plan did not work out well. Likewise, all the hype on this Board about Ash was how good of an outside shooter he was. Instead, he tried to drive to the hoop nearly every time -- and then missed with a big clank off the backboard. Ash's skills simply did not mesh well without a PG who can dribble/penetrate, with similar guards such as Roby who also likes to drive to the hoop and with other interior guys like Manning, Reggie, Milik and Jolly who clog the lane and thereby make driving to the hoop even tougher. With respect to Gillmann, yes he can be considered a stretch 5 similar to Rob Loe but RM's larger plan made sure that Rob Loe played alongside guys who could do well on the interior such as Conklin, Evans, Remeken and even Ellis. Not only was Gillmann not Rob Loe from the perimeter but our interior guys were a far cry from Conklin, Evans, Remeken and Ellis.

Instead, comparisons of Crews to Majerus bring to mind the often used question from the NFL draft: should a team use its next draft pick to fill a need or for the best player available. I would suggest that Majerus filled needs with a plan a purpose and that Jim Crews is simply fielding team full of the best players available -- and it shows. No doubt, Crews sees something in Welmer (possibly shooting and athleticism from a big 3/small 4) and Neufeld who might be more of the true 5 which not only we would want but which nearly all programs crave but neither of these spots were truly needed this past Fall in that Crews brought in Tanner and Reggie 2 years ago and he brought in Jolly, Gillman and Milik last year. Sure, it was anticipated that Glaze and Manning (2 bigs - a forward and a center) were to graduate and move on so bringing in Welmer and Neufeld (2 bigs - a forward and a center) seems appropriate at first glace; however, I'd suggest that this assumes the other positions were deemed satisfied by Crews. Again, where and what is Crews' larger plan? Back in November, Crews knew that he already had 5 returning bigs and that he should have known that McBroom would not be his starting PG for both this year and next based upon his having coached McBroom these past 2 years. Also, Crews should have known that Ash may have skills and may play the 2 or 3 for us but that the perimeter shooting achievements of Highmark, Claggett and Lisch are not at risk of being surpassed by Ash. Even assuming all players stay and that each makes incremental improvement, I still question who will stretch opposing defenses from the perimeter and who will break down opposing defenses with dribble penetration and who will make mid-range jumpers for us. Instead, I see too many skills duplicated over and over with other skills simply missing. Jim, where and what is your larger plan?

[slu72]

Between AY, MY, and, occasionally, MR, I saw plenty of dribble penetration this year. Unfortunately, they usually resulted in the ball being 3 rows up in the stands or in the players mouth. The idea behind the dribble drive is you will draw the D to the driver who will then dish the ball off to an open man, ie an inside big, or an open man at the perimeter. Our drivers never wrapped their minds around that concept.

Watching Davidson yesterday one could see how well coached they are. Yes, they lost, but they move well w/o the ball which offers them a lot of open looks both from the perimeter, along the baseline, and inside. Compare this to our guys flipping the ball around the perimeter or one of the above players taking off on an ill advised drive to the hoop.

[billikenblue]

I have been at all the games here in brooklyn and wish the crews apologists were here to see all the league in person..there is a big void as to how we look as compared to the talent and coaching involvement and as Roy stated BIG changes need to made as we tend to forget as West Coast Billiken so aptly put..WE ARE DEAD LAST in the conference. After a quick look at the top 8 players of each team over 80 % of the talent on the other teams is returning making it more difficult to climb in the standings .Along with one has to assume the other schools will also make some changes while improving at the same time as we are ...it will be an interesting year to say the least. While a devoted fan I am also in the Taj 79 camp ...is it worth the wait as the outcome unfortunately is not promising when you truly get off the blinders and do the "eye test" of where we truly are . One final note...I am really tired of the Freshman excuse as many key players here are freshman and are making major contributions while our freshman did not improve as the year went on ..coaching or talent ?

[slufan13]

Yeah I think people only look at our team and say we'll automatically improve because players get older. If that's true for us then it's the same for every other team.

We can be good next year. But it won't happen without big changes. Whether that's changes to the roster, staff, or multiple players having huge offseasons.

[3star_recruit]

I think the common refrain has been that youngsters will get better because they'll get stronger, not necessarily because they're a year older. For the one kid who was already pretty strong, Milik, the makeover will need to be more mental than physical.

If we can score 5-6 more points a game and give up 2 less points a game, we're a .500 team in the conference. That can be accomplished by 4 guys increasing their scoring average by 1.5 ppg and serviceable play at center. No Conklin Summer required by any individual. No impact player required in the spring. Just incremental improvement from 4 guys.

[Clock_Tower]

I think the common refrain has been that youngsters will get better because they'll get stronger, not necessarily because they're a year older. For the one kid who was already pretty strong, Milik, the makeover will need to be more mental than physical.

If we can score 5-6 more points a game and give up 2 less points a game, we're a .500 team in the conference. That can be accomplished by 4 guys increasing their scoring average by 1.5 ppg and serviceable play at center. No Conklin Summer required by any individual. No impact player required in the spring. Just incremental improvement from 4 guys.

Yes and no.

First, yes our Freshman will be better in that they will not only be a year older, etc. but more importantly their bodies will be better ready for the physical demands of the A10 schedule. Assuming our same roster less Glaze and Manning, we have 3 Freshman who are simply way too thin. Miles Reynolds (6'2") and Marcus Bartley (6'4") are both listed at 170 lbs and that is simply too light to compete in the A10 and be effective. If both can come back in equal or better shape and be at least 180 lbs having added both weight and muscle, then they won't be pushed around as much. That alone can result in an extra basket per game per player. Also, 210 is simply not big/heavy enough for a 6'10" center and therefore if Gillmann can put on 15 lbs of weight/muscle, he still won't be the biggest/strongest but he at least will be able to compete. This past year, he played on the perimeter b/c he got shoved around so much on the inside that he largely conceded the interior. Sorry, but we don't need a 6'10" center who gets beat defensively, who gets shoved away so he cannot rebound and who is relegated to the perimeter where he is only good for one (1) three-pointer per game.

Second, no weight is also an issue with Malik. Even though he is 6'6" and already weighs 230 lbs, he doesn't have the muscle/core strength to play possibly the hardest position on the floor -- power forward. If he can come back with added weight/muscle and play at around 240 to 245 lbs per game, then again this is the difference between playing and competing.

[slufan13]

I want to be better than .500 in conference

[3star_recruit]

Milik didn't get swatted repeatedly because he didn't weigh enough. He got swatted because he's not a leaper. That was fine in high school where he was often the tallest player on the court but at this level a vertical under 30 inches will just get your shot blocked.

If he wants to improve his leaping ability his best bet would be to lose 5-7 lb of baby fat. Or instead of constantly attacking the rim, he could start to develop a mid-range game.

[TheA_Bomb]

Coach J-Crews is known to be demanding, see an incident he had while coaching USMA. Which is the reason B-Roy doesn't like him. The guy has been coaching a while and knows basketball. As pointed out before there's no secret sauce and really only so many offenses or defenses you can run and there's thousands of books outlining all of them. He's not just eating Del Taco at practice, dude's a Bobby Knight disciple come on.

I think Coach J-Crews will bring back the wins. Sometimes there's just a bad mix of personalities, circumstances, timing. This year was that for whatever reason many of the players didn't execute. The coaches were ineffective in getting the players to execute. They all lost motivation and it spiraled from bad to worse. Add a few new players, maybe an assistant change or maybe change the way practice/teaching is approached and that can all change and rather quickly. I think the team can get back to just above .500 next season and then compete the year after for the conference.

It seems that this staff is good at landing talented players. I've seen a lot of promise, flashes here and there. Now they got to find the right combinations, buttons to push for motivation and way to get through to the group they have. I think they will. 3 games decided by 4 pts or less this season all in conference and some against the best teams in the conference. That indicates that the team was motivated by playing good teams and can compete. So they need that motivation all season and must compete every game. I'm optimistic that they'll find a way.

[hsmith19]

dude's a Bobby Knight disciple come on.

El Oh El. And Quin Snyder was a Coach K "disciple."

[For-DaLove]

El Oh El. And Quin Snyder was a Coach K "disciple."

Pretty poor comparison for your sake. Quinn Snyder is a heck of a coach who got his nose into the wrong things at Mizzou.

[hsmith19]

And ran a program into the ground. Falling back on this "disciple" BS proves nothing about a coach.

[slufanskip]

Too much to teach too many players all at one time.

I'm still standing with NIT next year if all frosh stay. I think they'll have a good summer and you'll see things gel. Call me crazy

[MB73]

El Oh El. And Quin Snyder was a Coach K "disciple."

And ran a program into the ground. Falling back on this "disciple" BS proves nothing about a coach.

Your usual, ridiculous, approach to everything.

It is certain that many big time, successful coaches in NCAA basketball have developed assistants who became strong coaches themselves.

Sure, a few failed, like that assh*le Snyder.

You always point to one minor example to make your outrageous point, is not acceptable logic.

[hsmith19]

Your usual, ridiculous, approach to everything.

It is certain that many big time, successful coaches in NCAA basketball have developed assistants who became strong coaches themselves.

Sure, a few failed, like that assh*le Snyder.

You always point to one minor example to make your outrageous point, is not acceptable logic.

El Oh El @ "one minor example." Snyder, a Coach K "disciple," wrecked one program. Dave Bliss, a fellow Bobby Knight "disciple," wrecked one. Calipari, a Larry Brown protege, wrecked two programs. When running down the list of coaches that turned out to be complete busts, it's hard to find one that WASN'T a "disciple" of somebody when they were hired.

It's too early to tell whether the Crews era is a bust. Unlike some here, I am willing to give him at least one more year before pronouncing judgment. But falling back on the "disciple" line is the last refuge when you want to defend a coach and don't have a real argument. It's not just unacceptable logic; it's a lack of logic.

It is once again a shame that your call to boycott SLU does not extend to posting on this message board.

[brianstl]

Pat Knight was the ultimate Bobby Knight disciple.