Would relocation of Rams open opportunity for SLU?

[Billiken Rich]

That perception has always existed, but it is beyond outdated. Maybe when the next Census comes out and shows that the County is actually shrinking and the City finally showing a modest gain, more people will finally recognize this. The inner ring suburbs are bleeding residents and businesses in two directions. They're caught in the middle between the folks returning to the central city and the folks who keep fleeing further and further out. We're already past the point of the question being one of City vs. County. The inner ring suburbs have the same problems as the City but don't have the assets that make the City attractive to older empty nesters and younger people. That includes nearly all of St. Louis County (everything but the far west, and many of the people there would join St. Charles Co. in a heartbeat if that was politically feasible).

I'm not saying perceived crime in the City isn't a problem, but the perception of the public school system is a much bigger problem. Obviously the two are linked, but the biggest problem the City has right now is that people with school-age kids (especially ones who can't afford to send them to private schools) are absolutely petrified of SLPS. I think that should be a much bigger concern than suburban tourists being afraid of getting robbed when they go to a sports event or anything else.

You are right but most west countians look at north county as an extension of the city. How many west countians go past The Mills in their shopping plans. Northwest Plaza, Jamestown Mall. Northland. River Roads (for the older set) are all dead. Hit the Cards or Rams in the city then go home. Further north......not so much,

As a former north countian and current (stl county) Fentonian, the question for me is how long before one party rule in St Louis county, much less the city, makes things untenable for us. I do not want to move to St Charles, or back to Jefferson, or to Franklin County but it may come to that. Hopefully the next twenty years in Fenton will not bring the decline in property values that hit my parent's home near Spanish Lake and I'll be able to retire some where warmer and better managed......

[hsmith19]

I certainly wouldn't be heartbroken to see the County and/or City go to non-partisan elections for municipal offices, but I'd also be surprised if that really changed the types of people elected enough to meaningfully impact policy. Even setting aside the whole Ferguson debacle, McCulloch is an interesting example of the way St. Louis politics works. Yeah, he has a "D" after his name, but the Republicans usually don't even bother to run anybody against him when he's on the ballot. He could call himself a Republican, independent, or anything else, and he'd keep getting elected. The "base" of his own party (read: black people) in the County haven't liked him for years, and yet he's never gotten any serious challenge electorally. The problem isn't really one of which letter is after people's names on the ballot. There's just a lot of inertia against anyone coming in from outside the established system.

The joke is that St. Louis is a two party system--black Democrats and white Democrats. It's not always drawn on skin color lines, but there's quite a bit of truth in that. If you called one party Republicans or Whigs or something else, the issue would still be the same.

[Billiken Rich]

I certainly wouldn't be heartbroken to see the County and/or City go to non-partisan elections for municipal offices, but I'd also be surprised if that really changed the types of people elected enough to meaningfully impact policy. Even setting aside the whole Ferguson debacle, McCulloch is an interesting example of the way St. Louis politics works. Yeah, he has a "D" after his name, but the Republicans usually don't even bother to run anybody against him when he's on the ballot. He could call himself a Republican, independent, or anything else, and he'd keep getting elected. The "base" of his own party (read: black people) in the County haven't liked him for years, and yet he's never gotten any serious challenge electorally. The problem isn't really one of which letter is after people's names on the ballot. There's just a lot of inertia against anyone coming in from outside the established system.

The joke is that St. Louis is a two party system--black Democrats and white Democrats. It's not always drawn on skin color lines, but there's quite a bit of truth in that. If you called one party Republicans or Whigs or something else, the issue would still be the same.

Good point with McCulloch and you could say the same thing about Slay. The problem is that entrenched "politicians for life" do not often serve us well.

[JMM28]

Slu or st louis?

SLU. Imagine the revenue that could flow into the university if they started an NBA team!!! They could be the Sr. Billikens.

[bk18]

The Lambs back in Los Angles - ever since they left they have been threatening to move back - NO WAY.

They ruined Anaheim Stadium when they moved in.

They talk about the "NEW" Stadium they would build,,, ya, right, sure, Enviromentalists won't let it happen because they found a 3-toe Gray Rock Frog right there ................ keep'um.

[slufanskip]

Do you think the Ferguson/Mike Brown Protests have any impact on the decision in the Rams relocating? Maybe when Stan saw the protesters and fans fighting over flags, hitting and spitting on each other after the Rams game, he began to lean towards relocation. Thoughts?????

He's a Walmart guy, he's seen that alot.

[WestCoastBilliken]

Stoked to be a LA RAMS fan

[Taj79]

Isn't the college landscape littered with football programs chasing the dream of the golden goose/cash cow that is the old BCS? Charlotte started a football team. UAB did too, now doesn't have one. Uconn's program has never been annually good. On the whole, both the AAC and CUSA ranks are full of sucky teams.

Around here, Towson, Delaware, Nova, Lehigh, Madison, Bill & Mare .. all play some nice football but at the FCS level. And even at that level it is not cheap. Let's see .. no football at Creighton, Marquette, DePaul, Seton Hall, Providence, Xavier .... tell me again who we were thinking of emulating and joining?

What is the "WIN" in it for SLU? And unless you have stats or something to prove your statement, brian, it is without merit. St. Louis is not a football town. Never was. Never will be. Baseball Cardinals. Hockey Blues. Of course, the two teams the town has had were nothing more than interlopers --- thje Cardinals came from Chicago and the Rams from LA. Neither the Bidwells nor the Frontierres were locals. I think I heard the great Steve Wolf even say that on Tuesday's broadcast.

[Box and Won]

St. Louis is not a football town. Never was. Never will be.

I get tired of the constant perpetuation of this worn-out myth. STL is a city that has had two teams owned by carpet-bagger owners who have proven to be completely inept in their ability to put a successful product on the field. Neither has done anything to engage the community or made any sort of commitment to winning football. The amount of support this city has generated for football has actually been quite impressive given how epically, historically bad STL's teams have been.

[kshoe]

What is the "WIN" in it for SLU? And unless you have stats or something to prove your statement, brian, it is without merit.

The WIN in it for SLU and all other local sports teams is that there is less sports competition to go around. That means more dollars to be spent by the average ST. Louisan at Cardinals, Blues, Mizzou and SLU games.

If you want two anecdotes try these:

- The best single year every for SLU attendance was 94-95 when we averaged around 17k and were in the top 10 nationally. What did the sports landscape look like in STL at the time? The Cards were not playing well and drew just over 2 million, the Rams weren't here and the Blues were in the middle of a lock-out. We were a good team that year but not better than the last two years.

- All you need to do is look at schools like Creighton and Dayton to see what attendance can be like when you have little competition from pro sports teams. Obviously, the Billikens will still have pro competition from the Blues and Cards, but it will certainly be less with the Rams gone. It isn't even about whether die-hard Rams fans will be die-hard SLU fans. Its about whether the average sports fan has a few extra dollars to spend on entertainment and goes to a Billikens game or the corporation that advertised or buys tickets to sporting events decides to do so with SLU now that they don't have to purchase Rams tics.

It's very real.

[Dwayne's_World]

I get tired of the constant perpetuation of this worn-out myth. STL is a city that has had two teams owned by carpet-bagger owners who have proven to be completely inept in their ability to put a successful product on the field. Neither has done anything to engage the community or made any sort of commitment to winning football. The amount of support this city has generated for football has actually been quite impressive given how epically, historically bad STL's teams have been.

Exactly. The only reason football has never been kept in STL is because of the horrible owners that have been here. Just look at the Cards and Blues and you can immediately see the reason for success: local, devoted ownership. It all starts at the top. The people of St Louis will never support a sports team with an inept owner, but will wholeheartedly support a team if the ownership shows that it actually gives a damn. Unfortunately, the people of STL have only known the former when it comes to football.

[slu72]

I agree w/ Kshoe's post for the most part. However, a lot of that attendance came from fans outside the SLU community as a result of Charlie Spoonhour's good ol' boy and die hard Card's fan persona. I recall getting a few of his radio shows back then at night while driving around Ohio, and Billiken hoops was hardly discussed. A lot of the show were his homespun stories about growing up in Arkansas and his thoughts on the Cards. He was as much a radio personality as he was a coach and was excellent at both jobs. Too bad we'll probably never see another one like the Spoon.

[brianstl]

The WIN in it for SLU and all other local sports teams is that there is less sports competition to go around. That means more dollars to be spent by the average ST. Louisan at Cardinals, Blues, Mizzou and SLU games.

If you want two anecdotes try these:

- The best single year every for SLU attendance was 94-95 when we averaged around 17k and were in the top 10 nationally. What did the sports landscape look like in STL at the time? The Cards were not playing well and drew just over 2 million, the Rams weren't here and the Blues were in the middle of a lock-out. We were a good team that year but not better than the last two years.

- All you need to do is look at schools like Creighton and Dayton to see what attendance can be like when you have little competition from pro sports teams. Obviously, the Billikens will still have pro competition from the Blues and Cards, but it will certainly be less with the Rams gone. It isn't even about whether die-hard Rams fans will be die-hard SLU fans. Its about whether the average sports fan has a few extra dollars to spend on entertainment and goes to a Billikens game or the corporation that advertised or buys tickets to sporting events decides to do so with SLU now that they don't have to purchase Rams tics.

It's very real.

Thanks for covering this for me Kshoe.

[JMM28]

On kshoes point of corporate dollars - I hope whomever is in charge of sponsorship in the athletic department is reaching out to every single corporate sponsor of the Rams right now. Some companies have a hard on for sports sponsorships like that and will only spend that money on sports. Spending money localy with the Rams next year will be toxic and ineffective if their PR team can't spin this.

[cheesycow]

Make a new stadium in the St. Louis suburbs so the fan base that has the money to actually go to the games can do so without fear of being robbed. May seem silly to some but people from this area are paranoid

Yeah. It's so crazy that they still attempt to have Cardinals, Blues, and Billikens games in such a rough area.

[hsmith19]

Exactly. The only reason football has never been kept in STL is because of the horrible owners that have been here. Just look at the Cards and Blues and you can immediately see the reason for success: local, devoted ownership. It all starts at the top. The people of St Louis will never support a sports team with an inept owner, but will wholeheartedly support a team if the ownership shows that it actually gives a damn. Unfortunately, the people of STL have only known the former when it comes to football.

Hmm. A minute ago you were saying the Rams' leaving was all the fault of elected leaders. Now it's all the fault of the owners. The truth is the elected officials' biggest failure was in luring the owners here in the first place with an absolute laughingstock of a lease.

[Dwayne's_World]

Hmm. A minute ago you were saying the Rams' leaving was all the fault of elected leaders. Now it's all the fault of the owners. The truth is the elected officials' biggest failure was in luring the owners here in the first place with an absolute laughingstock of a lease.

It's both. Clueless public officials bringing in terrible owners.

[slufan13]

We need something cooler than the arch.

Also our public officials suck.

Also Kroenke is a scumbag.

Also the Rams suck

[brianstl]

We need something cooler than the arch.

Also our public officials suck.

Also Kroenke is a scumbag.

Also the Rams suck

The arch is great, but it was awful for downtown. It completely disconnected the city from the river.

[hsmith19]

I think the Arch is about as cool as it could possibly be from an architectural/symbolic standpoint. My problem is with leveling all of the original city center to build it. We could have (sort of) had both if local and federal leaders had decided to go with the alternate plan for the site--demolish only the footprints for the two legs of the arch, and leave the rest of the buildings in tact, so the Arch would rise out of downtown, rather than leaving the Arch, Courthouse, and Cathedral isolated in the middle of a giant and mostly useless park space. The first option would have been more costly, made construction more difficult, and dragged the process out even longer than it already was, but I think it would have been better for downtown development and even in terms of the symbolic message being sent to the rest of the country.

Lots of cities engaged in damaging and shortsighted urban renewal efforts around that time, but we were unique in wiping out all of our original urban core in one fell swoop. The fact that we bulldozed what was left of the French fur trading post (which enjoyed a brief period of relative peace, racial harmony, and commercial progress before the Louisiana Purchase) to build a monument to westward expansion of the United States named for a slaveowning Virginian and the architect of Indian removal policy just heaps layers of uncomfortable irony on it.

[Pistol]

Tell you what (and I shockingly agree with MB73 on at least half of this premise), if I'm betting long-term on my investment dollar, I'd be buying MLS today and selling NFL (I think the latter is where we agree). I think the NFL is at its peak in terms of popularity and value.

Of my peers, who are the age of people having kids right now, it seems that more of them than not have said they're not going to put their sons in youth football. This is going to grow, as people realize that the odds of having long-term head issues are much larger than having long-term economic gain (scholarship, pro money) from playing football.

Dream scenario: some ownership team gets the itch to bring an MLS team to the country's traditional heart of soccer. Hermann is expanded to a mid-20,000-seat soccer stadium that also serves as the home pitch for SLU. Far-fetched? Probably (MLS loves a sugar daddy and we don't have one right now). But the capital investment is peanuts compared to what the NFL requires, and STL is not going to get a third crack at a team, especially not in this era of the NFL.

[brianstl]

Tell you what (and I shockingly agree with MB73 on at least half of this premise), if I'm betting long-term on my investment dollar, I'd be buying MLS today and selling NFL (I think the latter is where we agree). I think the NFL is at its peak in terms of popularity and value.

Of my peers, who are the age of people having kids right now, it seems that more of them than not have said they're not going to put their sons in youth football. This is going to grow, as people realize that the odds of having long-term head issues are much larger than having long-term economic gain (scholarship, pro money) from playing football.

Dream scenario: some ownership team gets the itch to bring an MLS team to the country's traditional heart of soccer. Hermann is expanded to a mid-20,000-seat soccer stadium that also serves as the home pitch for SLU. Far-fetched? Probably (MLS loves a sugar daddy and we don't have one right now). But the capital investment is peanuts compared to what the NFL requires, and STL is not going to get a third crack at a team, especially not in this era of the NFL.

I love and played football growing up. No way my son is playing football.

[Taj79]

Let's not forget that 94-95 was the follow on year to Spoon's first really great year --- a year where the Billikens --- those lovable, laughable losers --- won 23 games and appeared in the NCAA tournament for ther first time since 1956-57 --- the year I was born! That made the follow up season a rarity, an odditiy. Was it 93 - 94 real or was it memorex? And they came out and did not disappoint, getting another bid to the Dance and even winning a game for the first time. In my time in St. Louis, I always found that to the Cardinals goes our undying support. All others must win and we'll join the bandwagon. Maybe that's changed for the Blues, I don't know.

I do however agree that if there is a void for the disposable, entertainment dollars, and the Billikens are winning, they will come. I don't think you'll ever see a Chaifetz house the same way one sees a Dayton house, or a Creighton house, or a VCU house -- packed to the gills with rabid rowdies or sold out every night even when losing.

I'd love to see a Chaifetz/Billiken event with scalpers outside the door getting $100 for every spare seat available. Woudl love to. But doubt it.

[Pistol]

I love and played football growing up. No way my son is playing football.

Yep. That's a common refrain now. We know a lot know that wasn't widely known in previous generations.

Anyway, that "Dream scenario" above is how the Rams' departure could in some way be an opportunity for SLU. There are obviously going to be discretionary entertainment dollars up for grabs with an NFL team vacating, but it's hard to say that'll go in SLU's direction, especially in the short term.

Watching the city shamelessly throw itself at the NFL in the 1990s should be enough of a lesson that it isn't worth it right now. It's not a good long-term buy at its current price point - not that it turned out to be one with 20 years of growth, either.

[Taj79]

Football hurts and middle class Americans are getting soft. in a litigous society, who you going to sue if your kid gets hurt and concussed? I, like Brian, played football too. I admit to being fearful of injury. My center got at least three concussions our freshman year and was considered a little "goofy" for after and still is today.

Football is getting like the gladiators or the Christians with lions. "Oh, the lion won that one and our guy is dead. Next man up. Heraclitus jerseys ... cheap."