GDT: Game of the day

[moytoy12]

Our offense has been pretty bad all year. The offense needs to start and end with Evans in the post even if he is being doubled and tripled team, we did this last year and the offense really took off.

It really has been. In addition to getting DE going, our 3 point shot would fall at a decent enough rate to open things up last year. It just ain't falling this year.

[Pistol]

Good point, Westy.

And I forgot about McCall leaving his feet twice in a row before throwing it away.

[Aquinas]

A tough loss with soooooo many missed opportunities. Give Wisconsin their due, they are a very good team and play a tough inside defense. They forced us to alter shots and at times we looked rattled. Is it a game we could have won? Yes...... We need to learn and grow from it.

We should not despair. I popped open the Sagarin ratings to see how much damage had been done. The answer. NONE. Sagarin still loves us, we are raked at 12. That serves as a reminder that we played a very very good team that isn't going to lose many games this year. I love the character of this Billiken team, our guys did not give up. Austin is a player and did not appear to get rattled.

We need to get back on our horse and take it to Old Dominion.

Beyond that we need beat Wichita State number 8 on Sagarin.

[JMM28]

I don't agree with those saying Loe had a good game. I am not going to ###### on him, but his game was average to below average. His first half was terrible. His only contributions were the two bunnies set up by McCall and Jett. He was worked by Kaminsky on both ends in the first half.

His second half was ok. He came out and had a couple quick baskets. He shot 1-4 from 3 before a garbage time 3 made him 2-5. His turnover killed any comeback chance.

He is obviously our best option at the 5 at this point. He will always suffer from the huge expectations that accompanied him here. *I'll add that I hope Manning can develop this year into a player that can push Loe for minutes. I wouldn't hate having Loe come off the bench or more of a 50/50 timeshare at the 5.

[bauman]

What do Blizziken, Cheeseman, NH, Dr Kelsey, slufan13, Alumni Fan, GOSLU68, NextYearBill, Taj79 and Pistol all have in common? Based on their posts on pgs 16-18 of this thread they now, if not before, seem to agree with my position over the past month and a half or so that JB needs to start losing some minutes. My feeling is that we need to start seeing more of MC and less of JB. I do have to say that my position was based more on the fact that we needed to get MC prepared for the future and that since he and JB were similar in style and skill we should begin looking to the future. However, it now seems that the reason for subtracting time from JB now has more to do with his lack of contribution. We have to remember, he is a 5th year senior who should be providing leadership to this team, but it doesn't appear to be happening.

FREE MIKE CRAWFORD!!! He can give us just as much, if not more, than JB while gaining valuable experience.

[moytoy12]

What do Blizziken, Cheeseman, NH, Dr Kelsey, slufan13, Alumni Fan, GOSLU68, NextYearBill, Taj79 and Pistol all have in common? Based on their posts on pgs 16-18 of this thread they now, if not before, seem to agree with my position over the past month and a half or so that JB needs to start losing some minutes. My feeling is that we need to start seeing more of MC and less of JB. I do have to say that my position was based more on the fact that we needed to get MC prepared for the future and that since he and JB were similar in style and skill we should begin looking to the future. However, it now seems that the reason for subtracting time from JB now has more to do with his lack of contribution. We have to remember, he is a 5th year senior who should be providing leadership to this team, but it doesn't appear to be happening.

FREE MIKE CRAWFORD!!! He can give us just as much, if not more, than JB while gaining valuable experience.

There's a reason that MC isn't close to seeing meaningful minutes. I don't know the reason, but Crews hasn't shown a reluctance to play Freshmen; however, MC is the 10th or 11th man off the bench. Crews knows something we don't.

[jbizzle09]

I don't agree with those saying Loe had a good game. I am not going to ###### on him, but his game was average to below average. His first half was terrible. His only contributions were the two bunnies set up by McCall and Jett. He was worked by Kaminsky on both ends in the first half.

His second half was ok. He came out and had a couple quick baskets. He shot 1-4 from 3 before a garbage time 3 made him 2-5. His turnover killed any comeback chance.

He is obviously our best option at the 5 at this point. He will always suffer from the huge expectations that accompanied him here. *I'll add that I hope Manning can develop this year into a player that can push Loe for minutes. I wouldn't hate having Loe come off the bench or more of a 50/50 timeshare at the 5.

Except, of course, you spent the whole GDT sh*tting on him.

[slu72]

My guess would be defense is MC's issue. He's probably too slow to man up against a 3 or 2 and doesn't have the knowledge yet on how to compensate for it. In short, we'd get drilled. Still, if he truly does have sniper abilities it might be worth the risk to stick him in there in a comeback game where 3s would really help.

[slufanskip]

I don't agree with those saying Loe had a good game. I am not going to ###### on him, but his game was average to below average. His first half was terrible. His only contributions were the two bunnies set up by McCall and Jett. He was worked by Kaminsky on both ends in the first half.

His second half was ok. He came out and had a couple quick baskets. He shot 1-4 from 3 before a garbage time 3 made him 2-5. His turnover killed any comeback chance.

He is obviously our best option at the 5 at this point. He will always suffer from the huge expectations that accompanied him here. *I'll add that I hope Manning can develop this year into a player that can push Loe for minutes. I wouldn't hate having Loe come off the bench or more of a 50/50 timeshare at the 5.

His turnover didn't kill any comeback attempt any worse than DE, JJ, or AM tossing up quick ill advised 3's earlier in the game. I could pick out a dozen or more poor plays that hurt us equally as much. There was no garbage time. Did he have a great game? No, but imo he'd have been my number one star of the game in a game where no Bill played great.

Loe has never been the inside banging 5 people want him to be, so the expectations of him have always been unrealistic. Personally, I thought he would have been better a better shooter than he has been. He's been in the low 30's most of his career and I thought he'd push 40%. He's become a tougher inside player than I ever thought he'd be

[Quality Is Job 1]

We had 19 more field goal attemps than Wisc. too bad we couldn't make 4 of them.

We attempted 19 more field goals than Wisconsin and lost by 6. Now that is frustrating. We have to shoot better. That is the bottom line.

It depends on how the disparity is created. If it's because the Bills create a lot of turnovers or get a lot of offensive rebounds, it's favorable, but if it's because they commit a lot of fouls and the FT differential is significant, then it's not favorable. Shot attempts that miss while drawing fouls don't count statistically as an attempt, but they need to be considered in the overall picture. Let's estimate that 26 of UW's FTs were because of shooting fouls; that means the Badgers virtually had 13 more shots.

[West Pine Jim]

His turnover didn't kill any comeback attempt any worse than DE, JJ, or AM tossing up quick ill advised 3's earlier in the game. I could pick out a dozen or more poor plays that hurt us equally as much. There was no garbage time. Did he have a great game? No, but imo he'd have been my number one star of the game in a game where no Bill played great.

Loe has never been the inside banging 5 people want him to be, so the expectations of him have always been unrealistic. Personally, I thought he would have been better a better shooter than he has been. He's been in the low 30's most of his career and I thought he'd push 40%. He's become a tougher inside player than I ever thought he'd be

Agree completely, skip.

[JMM28]

Except, of course, you spent the whole GDT sh*tting on him.

That is fair. I probably did. I'll own that.

His turnover didn't kill any comeback attempt any worse than DE, JJ, or AM tossing up quick ill advised 3's earlier in the game. I could pick out a dozen or more poor plays that hurt us equally as much. There was no garbage time. Did he have a great game? No, but imo he'd have been my number one star of the game in a game where no Bill played great.

Loe has never been the inside banging 5 people want him to be, so the expectations of him have always been unrealistic. Personally, I thought he would have been better a better shooter than he has been. He's been in the low 30's most of his career and I thought he'd push 40%. He's become a tougher inside player than I ever thought he'd be

I think DE had a much better and more efficient game. He was the victim of some questionable officiating that took him out of the game early. If not we are probably having this discussion about what can be improved to go 3-0 this week. Garbage time might not be an appropriate term, but more of "This team is running the desperation offense against a prevent defense" so call that whatever you will.

I never expected Loe to be a banging 5. I did expect him to be a good consistent shooter. He hasn't been that at all from any distance. He is just kind of an average player. It isn't terrible, but it isn't good. The biggest problem is that he has not developed his game at all in the past 2 seasons.

[TheA_Bomb]

I was disappointed with the shot selection in the latter 1st half and the second half. That was the killer. They stopped the great ball movement we had at the beginning of the game and let Wisc's D dictate that we chuck bad shots. Couple that with SLU not hitting shots (again) and we fell behind. Their defensive scheme shut down Evans in the first half until he asserted himself for a bit but they adjusted again.

Overall I'm not too hung up this was a very good team SLU went up against. Almost a mirror image balanced, smart and tough on D. But with slightly better athletes size and shooting touch. So that team won and by 6. We'll bounce back. Sad that we missed an opportunity to make a statement and I was really hopeful for most of the first half as SLU played smart on offense and tough D.

[For-DaLove]

And no one cares that in the first half MM left his feet TWICE in the span of 3 or 4 possessions with absolutely no plan whatsoever and turned the ball over. At least RL was trying to make a logical play.

THIS. Completely unacceptable from a senior guard

[slufanskip]

That is fair. I probably did. I'll own that.

I think DE had a much better and more efficient game. He was the victim of some questionable officiating that took him out of the game early. If not we are probably having this discussion about what can be improved to go 3-0 this week. Garbage time might not be an appropriate term, but more of "This team is running the desperation offense against a prevent defense" so call that whatever you will.

I never expected Loe to be a banging 5. I did expect him to be a good consistent shooter. He hasn't been that at all from any distance. He is just kind of an average player. It isn't terrible, but it isn't good. The biggest problem is that he has not developed his game at all in the past 2 seasons.

I don't disagree with that shooting the ball. However defensively, I believe he's improved quite a bit, and I think he plays stronger inside, though by no means a great inside player.

Except for shooting the 3, he's started the year playing a much better all around game and he had one of the better games on the team last night. I'd disagree with your thinking on DE's game but either way he was one of the better players last night so I don't get all the bashing.

[Cowboy]

That is fair. I probably did. I'll own that.

I think DE had a much better and more efficient game. He was the victim of some questionable officiating that took him out of the game early. If not we are probably having this discussion about what can be improved to go 3-0 this week. Garbage time might not be an appropriate term, but more of "This team is running the desperation offense against a prevent defense" so call that whatever you will.

I never expected Loe to be a banging 5. I did expect him to be a good consistent shooter. He hasn't been that at all from any distance. He is just kind of an average player. It isn't terrible, but it isn't good. The biggest problem is that he has not developed his game at all in the past 2 seasons.

-we are not watching the same game, so be it

[jbizzle09]

I don't disagree with that shooting the ball. However defensively, I believe he's improved quite a bit, and I think he plays stronger inside, though by no means a great inside player.

Except for shooting the 3, he's started the year playing a much better all around game and he had one of the better games on the team last night. I'd disagree with your thinking on DE's game but either way he was one of the better players last night so I don't get all the bashing.

Agree. Obviously, he is playing much better inside as his scoring is improved from last season yet he has not been shooting the three that well. You would think that would indicate that he has improved his low-post scoring. Also, his rebounding has been pretty decent in these first 6 games, as he is grabbing 5+ boards a game so far. That is much better than his career average.

[b.hayes]

THIS. Completely unacceptable from a senior guard

Barely acceptable for any college player. Co-ed intramural teams should know not to leave your feet if you don't know what you're going to do with the ball. You're taught not to even pick up your dribble until you know what you're going to do, certainly you shouldn't be leaving your feet. I was apoplectic at that point.

[For-DaLove]

I don't agree with those saying Loe had a good game. I am not going to ###### on him, but his game was average to below average. His first half was terrible. His only contributions were the two bunnies set up by McCall and Jett. He was worked by Kaminsky on both ends in the first half.

His second half was ok. He came out and had a couple quick baskets. He shot 1-4 from 3 before a garbage time 3 made him 2-5. His turnover killed any comeback chance.

He is obviously our best option at the 5 at this point. He will always suffer from the huge expectations that accompanied him here. *I'll add that I hope Manning can develop this year into a player that can push Loe for minutes. I wouldn't hate having Loe come off the bench or more of a 50/50 timeshare at the 5.

The numbers say otherwise, but okay.

And no he's our best option at the 5. He put up 15 last night and held down one of the best scoring centers in the nation. Some of you people are completely delusional

[JMM28]

The numbers say what exactly?!

Here's what the numbers show me. Rob was a more productive player 3 years ago.

He "held" Kaminsky to about 4 points under his average. And that average is inflated by the game of his life of 40some points. Let's not deify Kaminsky just yet.

I'm not trying to bash him, but some of you people want to put people in two categories, either pro-certain player or anti-certain player.

Rob is an average player that had an average game last night.

[jbizzle09]

The numbers say what exactly?!

Here's what the numbers show me. Rob was a more productive player 3 years ago.

He "held" Kaminsky to about 4 points under his average. And that average is inflated by the game of his life of 40some points. Let's not deify Kaminsky just yet.

I'm not trying to bash him, but some of you people want to put people in two categories, either pro-certain player or anti-certain player.

Rob is an average player that had an average game last night.

Except that so far this season he is scoring at a better clip, grabbing more rebounds and shooting at a higher FG% than he has throughout his career. But, sure, he was a far more productive player three years ago.

I think you're trying to do a little revisionism here. You are trying to accuse others on the board of swinging too far on the pendulum one way or the other with players. Then you try to set yourself up as someone who thinks Loe is merely an average player that had an average game, and nothing more. And I could normally accept that. However, in this thread alone, you were claiming that Loe is awful. You then try to change that by saying he did not have a good game, but a below-average to average game. Then you finally switch it to him having an average game and being an average player.

The reason people (or at least I) called you out on this is because of your comments throughout the game. You are now trying to backtrack on them and say that you aren't trying to bash him, but just trying to point out that he wasn't all that good. Basically, you are tying to pretend you aren't something you are accusing others on this board of being, which is being either pro- or anti-player.

[For-DaLove]

The numbers say what exactly?!

Here's what the numbers show me. Rob was a more productive player 3 years ago.

He "held" Kaminsky to about 4 points under his average. And that average is inflated by the game of his life of 40some points. Let's not deify Kaminsky just yet.

I'm not trying to bash him, but some of you people want to put people in two categories, either pro-certain player or anti-certain player.

Rob is an average player that had an average game last night.

But you have been bashing him. What level of production from him would've made you happy last night?

[JettFlight5]

Someone's over-reacting, and it's not me.

What has this board come to?

[dlarry]

But you have been bashing him. What level of production from him would've made you happy last night?

25 and 15.

The problem with Loe is that people thought we were getting Dirk Nowitski. Now, anything less than that in their eyes is a failure.

He is thw whipping boy and will be until the end of the season. Every sports team/forum has one.

Holliday gets bashed on Cards forums

jackman on Blues forums

Bradford on Rams forums.

No matter how well he plays Loe will never be able to live up to tje unrealistic expectationa that were put on him 4 years ago.

[JMM28]

Except that so far this season he is scoring at a better clip, grabbing more rebounds and shooting at a higher FG% than he has throughout his career. But, sure, he was a far more productive player three years ago.

I think you're trying to do a little revisionism here. You are trying to accuse others on the board of swinging too far on the pendulum one way or the other with players. Then you try to set yourself up as someone who thinks Loe is merely an average player that had an average game, and nothing more. And I could normally accept that. However, in this thread alone, you were claiming that Loe is awful. You then try to change that by saying he did not have a good game, but a below-average to average game. Then you finally switch it to him having an average game and being an average player.

The reason people (or at least I) called you out on this is because of your comments throughout the game. You are now trying to backtrack on them and say that you aren't trying to bash him, but just trying to point out that he wasn't all that good. Basically, you are tying to pretend you aren't something you are accusing others on this board of being, which is being either pro- or anti-player.

bizzle I think you are confusing me with someone else. The only comments I made about him during the game were that "he isn't very good" after a bonehead play and a comment about him and Jake taking a flight back to St Louis, which I admit was made mostly in anger (at least on Rob's part.) I never said he was awful. I just don't agree with some acting like he had a great game because he scored the most points. Fact is he had a terrible first half that led to what would become an insurmountable deficit. He wasn't the only one, but his play stood out to me because he didn't contribute as much on the defensive end as Jett and McCall.

Dwayne being out with foul trouble is the reason for losing this game, IMO. Unfortunately the other seniors did not step up to the plate on the offensive end.

As for him being more productive, as a freshman he averaged 6.7 ppg and 3.5 rpg in 17 minutes. He shot for ###### at 39% Now he is averaging 9 ppg and 5.2 rpg in 27 minutes. He is shooting 46% overall so far. (Limited sample size)

Last year he had similar stats the first 6 games of the season..averaging 8.2 and 3 while shooting 8/16 from 2(50%), 8/23 from 3 (35%), for 16/39 overall (41%). That was a similar or better schedule (N-Kansas, N-Texas AM, @Wash, SIUC, USCU, Santa Clara.)

This year (first 6 games) is 17/26 from 2 (65%), 4/20 from 3 (20%), and 21/46 overall (46%).

Freshman through the first 6 games 10/24 from 2 (41%), 7/20 from 3 (35%), and 17/44 overall (38%). While averaging 8.2 PPG and 4.5 RPG.

His shooting seems to have improved inside, but definitely not from long range so far. I don't really know think we can say definitively yes or no at this point with small samples. I contend no, you contend yes. We shall see.

As for the non box score stuff, I don't see improvement in those areas either. He isn't a liability defensively, but nothing special. His biggest plus there is the ability to guard big guys from teams with systems like Wisconsin.