OT CARDINALS!!!!!!!!

[RiseAndGrind]

Please explain how Matheny has been "really really bad", because I'm not seeing it. There were a few things I questioned in game 4, but other than that I think he's been great. And this is coming from someone who didn't want to hire Matheny because he had zero experience.

It's hard to win when your ace is getting knocked around (I don't know what to make of Waino's two starts this series. Game 1, errors killed us. Tonight he had a ton of K's but still gave up big hits), and you're leaving a ton of guys on base. Let's face it, the bottom of our line up has been really really bad and I can't see it getting better. Freese is completely lost out there. Also, going back to the DH in Boston is definitely not good for us because Adams is a 3 pitch strike out at this point.

Our bats better wake up or it won't matter how well Wacha pitches in game 6. And that has nothing to do with Matheny

1) Have you seen Edward Mujica or Shelby Miller?

2) Notoriously slow hook with his pitchers.

3) Pitching Maness to Gomes - really? The team's worst pitcher in a spot like that?

4) Batting Kozma yesterday with 2 on and 2 out?

5) CONTINUING TO PITCH TO ORTIZ

Like I said - the team has gone completely cold with the bats but Matheny hasn't helped the cause.

[Westy03]

1) Have you seen Edward Mujica or Shelby Miller?

I believe this is Mathey's biggest botched decision that no one has really mentioned, puts the bullpen at a huge disadvantage and maybe why Matheny has a slow hook with his starters

[RiseAndGrind]

I believe this is Mathey's biggest botched decision that no one has really mentioned, puts the bullpen at a huge disadvantage and maybe why Matheny has a slow hook with his starters

From Si.com today:

How did the Cardinals get here? Manager Mike Matheny said he let Kozma hit because, "with a lefthander on the mound, we only have our backup catcher as a right-handed bat." This is true. But it is the Cardinals' fault.

They kept their excellent rookie starter Shelby Miller and relief pitcher Edward Mujica on the postseason roster, but they haven't used them. They have only pitched three postseason innings -- and two of them came when they mopped up the eighth and ninth innings of a 7-1 loss to the Pirates.

After Game 5 win, can Red Sox finish Cardinals in Game 6?

The Cardinals know how to handle pitchers as well as any team in baseball. If they don't feel comfortable using those two, especially the prized Miller, then fine. But they are wasting two roster spots that they desperately need.

Matheny should have used centerfielder Jon Jay to pinch-hit for Kozma; Jay isn't very good against lefties either, but he is at least a major-league quality hitter. Again: This was the Cardinals' best chance. They had a man on base, down two runs. Uehara was not yet in the game.

Kozma flew out. Matt Adams pinch-hit for starter Adam Wainwright, and the Red Sox brought in Uehara, and three pitches later, Adams had struck out. And in the ninth, Matheny used Jay against Uehara -- with nobody on base in a two-run game, it just wasn't the same quality of opportunity.

Read More: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/mlb/news/20131029/st-louis-cardinals-world-series-game-5-boston-red-sox/#ixzz2j7KUUpk3

[Quality Is Job 1]

You guys are funny. My baseball allegiance matters nil in this convo. I could care less about both teams involved in the series. There isn't a bias against the Cards.

Oh, please! Cubs fans are ferociously envious of Cardinals fans. Sure, the following is merely anecdotal, but I think it provides evidence. In October of 1987, I was a freshman at Lake Forest College, which is in suburban Chicago. Most of the kids there were from Chicago, naturally. I knew of few St. Louisans attending the school. I watched Game 7 of the World Series between the Cardinals and Minnesota in a common area, and when I returned to my dorm room after the completion of the game, the Chicagoans had basically teepeed my room (my roommate was from Boston, or something). I had not been rubbing anything in anyone's face, or anything, so what, other than hatred of all things Cardinals, made those Cubs fans treat me like that? I could have understood it if it were a school in Minneapolis.

[JMM28]

Sorry Thicks, I am not ferociously envious of the Cardinals. I don't hate them, I don't like them, I really just don't care about them. Much like I don't care much about Boston. I think the Cardinals have done a good job building their team and stock piling their system. They are probably one of the top run organizations in baseball. The Red Sox and Rangers would make up the Top 3 IMO, in no particular order. The Cubs are getting there, but still a few years off.

My point in this thread was that there is no bias against them. And anyone that claims there is some sort of Cardinals boogeyman is baseball stupid and probably thinks W/L record is a meaningful stat.

Thats all.

[DoctorB]

this thread is pretty funny and being bored on lunchtime I'll spend 3 minutes responding:

anyone who thinks Matheny must go, or be fired, due to a few dubious decisions in his first Series is, well, bat-looney. The amount that person knows about baseball--i.e. approximately zero--is grounds for being voted off this island. Guess what? he's here to stay, and thank the good Lord for that--probably for decades to come. Matheny is the real deal... is he to blame for the quiet bats?? looking a lot like 2004, to me. and last year: 1 run in the final 3 games, I believe.

re: those dubious decisions: well, my major beef is: I cannot figure out why they insist on pitching to Ortiz, but maybe they have had enough of that. I think last night they said at one point the rest of the team was batting a combined .133!

As for Mujica and Miller: I agree that if they simply are not going to use them, why are they taking up space? we could use a 3rd catcher, and another right handed power stick on the bench.

[Quality Is Job 1]

I don't think there's a conspiracy against the Cardinals; I agree with you on that. Nevertheless, I really think many, if not most, Cubs fans have at least a repressed envy of the Cardinals. I'm not knocking that, as I will admit I have similar feelings as a SLU and Mizzou fan regarding schools like Kansas and just about every ACC team.

Sorry Thicks, I am not ferociously envious of the Cardinals. I don't hate them, I don't like them, I really just don't care about them. Much like I don't care much about Boston. I think the Cardinals have done a good job building their team and stock piling their system. They are probably one of the top run organizations in baseball. The Red Sox and Rangers would make up the Top 3 IMO, in no particular order. The Cubs are getting there, but still a few years off.

My point in this thread was that there is no bias against them. And anyone that claims there is some sort of Cardinals boogeyman is baseball stupid and probably thinks W/L record is a meaningful stat.

Thats all.

[kshoe]

Sorry Thicks, I am not ferociously envious of the Cardinals. I don't hate them, I don't like them, I really just don't care about them. Much like I don't care much about Boston. I think the Cardinals have done a good job building their team and stock piling their system. They are probably one of the top run organizations in baseball. The Red Sox and Rangers would make up the Top 3 IMO, in no particular order. The Cubs are getting there, but still a few years off.

My point in this thread was that there is no bias against them. And anyone that claims there is some sort of Cardinals boogeyman is baseball stupid and probably thinks W/L record is a meaningful stat.

Thats all.

The most meaningful stat I can think of right now is whether Wacha becomes the first pitcher to start and WIN 5 games in postseason history.

JMM28, just admit you are a Cubs fan. You shouldn't be embarrassed by it. But please stop with the "I don't hate the Cardinals malarkey"

[Quality Is Job 1]

The most meaningful stat I can think of right now is whether Wacha becomes the first pitcher to start and WIN 5 games in postseason history.

JMM28, just admit you are a Cubs fan. You shouldn't be embarrassed by it. But please stop with the "I don't hate the Cardinals malarkey"

Uh, what?!

[JMM28]

I'm still confused why it really matters. I think I've said I'm a Cubs fan on here many times before.

If I were you I wouldn't give a damn whether Wacha gets the win or not. I'd care more that he maintains his ridiculously low postseason WHIP. He can't help it if the offense produces like they did last night.

[billiken_roy]

Only two things I question: why keep pitching to Ortiz. He's in a zone.

2. Why waste a roster spot on miller? I assume the rumors of a dead arm are true or else their is no reason Lynn got all the starts instead.

[RiseAndGrind]

this thread is pretty funny and being bored on lunchtime I'll spend 3 minutes responding:

anyone who thinks Matheny must go, or be fired, due to a few dubious decisions in his first Series is, well, bat-looney. The amount that person knows about baseball--i.e. approximately zero--is grounds for being voted off this island. Guess what? he's here to stay, and thank the good Lord for that--probably for decades to come. Matheny is the real deal... is he to blame for the quiet bats?? looking a lot like 2004, to me. and last year: 1 run in the final 3 games, I believe.

re: those dubious decisions: well, my major beef is: I cannot figure out why they insist on pitching to Ortiz, but maybe they have had enough of that. I think last night they said at one point the rest of the team was batting a combined .133!

As for Mujica and Miller: I agree that if they simply are not going to use them, why are they taking up space? we could use a 3rd catcher, and another right handed power stick on the bench.

Ha. Those are pretty big mistakes. He's obviously not going to get fired but he's been a manager this Post Season.

[Quality Is Job 1]

Ha. Those are pretty big mistakes. He's obviously not going to get fired but he's been a ###### manager this Post Season.

His team is in the World Series, but he's been a lousy manager?

[RiseAndGrind]

His team is in the World Series, but he's been a lousy manager?

* Sigh * Yes.

[Clock_Tower]

Only two things I question: why keep pitching to Ortiz. He's in a zone.

2. Why waste a roster spot on miller? I assume the rumors of a dead arm are true or else their is no reason Lynn got all the starts instead.

I totally agree with you and others about the Shelby Miller situation -- lack of playing time. And for what it's worth, my son and I were at the Friday night home game when the Cards beat the Dodgers to clinch and remember how smart Mozeilak (sp?) was by praising and singling out Beltran in front of his wife and family, his team, the fans and the national media. Helped our chances of resigning him -- and for less money!! Then, the next morning I was struck by the comments of Matheny when I was watching TV and the "softball" question about Waacha was given to him and in which he basically replied that he (Matheny) wanted Waacha back on April 15th (to be on the major league staff this past Spring 2013) but that management knew what they were doing, had other plans for him and so as to prevent him from having a dead arm here in the post-season. Immediately, I thought that this praise of Waacha could also be taken a disregard of Shelby Miller who carried the water for us all season (and who helped get us to the playoffs) only to then have Waacha step in and become the MVP. We have invested a ton of time and money in Shelby, he has a huge ego and this whole situation has not been played well for him, his happiness with the Cards and our future with him.

As to Ortiz, it sure looked to me that we were, in fact, pitching around him and have been doing so. Now, it is rather hard to do so when it's the first inning of Game 5. It is also hard to pitch around him when Pedroia is already on base. But Matheny has walked Ortiz, did walk him right before the Gomez HR in Game 4 and did pitch around him by basically giving him not very good pitches to hit. Ortiz is just totally on fire, hitting "good" pitches down low. Same with Pedroia.

In contrast, our bats are just not there. Jay, Carpenter, Yadi, Frese, Kozma, Robinson, Adams... Craig shouldn't be playing b/c of injury. Beltran lost just enough strength and power. Holliday, though, is playing well after not playing quite as well against the Dodgers.

And Tony Cruz... I get that we may need a back-up to Molina but if no one can be pressed into being a third-string catcher, then he is really just totally dead-weight as well -- and has been all year. What's the point??

[kshoe]

I'm still confused why it really matters. I think I've said I'm a Cubs fan on here many times before.

If I were you I wouldn't give a damn whether Wacha gets the win or not. I'd care more that he maintains his ridiculously low postseason WHIP. He can't help it if the offense produces like they did last night.

Because I KNOW if Wacha gets the win that the Cards got the win. That's why one should care. If you tell me Wacha has a WHIP of 0.5 tomorrow I don't know if we won the game or not.

As for everyone that says we shouldn't pitch to Ortiz, do they realize that we pitched around him on Sunday night and it backfired with a 3 run home run right after that? Sometimes you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

That being said there is a time and a place for everything. No way should they have pitched to him with first base open and a man on second in the first inning. But the idea that they should walk him EVERY time he bats is equally silly. Nobody is that good.

[brianstl]

Because I KNOW if Wacha gets the win that the Cards got the win. That's why one should care. If you tell me Wacha has a WHIP of 0.5 tomorrow I don't know if we won the game or not.

As for everyone that says we shouldn't pitch to Ortiz, do they realize that we pitched around him on Sunday night and it backfired with a 3 run home run right after that? Sometimes you are damned if you do and damned if you don't.

That being said there is a time and a place for everything. No way should they have pitched to him with first base open and a man on second in the first inning. But the idea that they should walk him EVERY time he bats is equally silly. Nobody is that good.

Ortiz might be that good right now. Shouldn't walk him every time, but we should never pitch to him with runners in scoring position.

[Littlebill]

* Sigh * Yes.

+1 and I know several baseball guys who agree with R&g and I

[Bizziken]

Only two things I question: why keep pitching to Ortiz. He's in a zone.

2. Why waste a roster spot on miller? I assume the rumors of a dead arm are true or else their is no reason Lynn got all the starts instead.

Rumor has it that Miller was on an innings limit that the Cardinals didn't publicize...there HAS to be a reason (whether it be a dead arm, injury, or innings limit) why he hasn't pitched.

[billiken_roy]

Rumor has it that Miller was on an innings limit that the Cardinals didn't publicize...there HAS to be a reason (whether it be a dead arm, injury, or innings limit) why he hasn't pitched.

Which I would be fine with. But then put someone else on the roster.

[Bizziken]

Which I would be fine with. But then put someone else on the roster.

Agreed...if they would have been up front about the innings limit I wouldn't have had a problem with that.

Adron Chambers could have at least provided pinch running and a left-handed hitter off the bench OR a 3rd catcher (Johnson) would have given Matheny the option to use Cruz as a pinch hitter

[brianstl]

I really didn't like moving Beltran out of the number 2 spot last night.

[slufanskip]

And how about having a conversation with Shelby. You don't have to be very good at reading between the lines to know that Shelby is confused. It seems to me that the Shelby situation hasn't been handled very well. Without Shelby we aren't in the World Series and possibly don't even make the playoffs. He was still 22 years old when the playoffs started. Maybe the right thing to do was and is to not pitch him as he may have reached a good innings limit ... but we do owe him an honest conversation and there is no way that had happened through the Dodger series and I'd be surprised if it has happened now.

Regardless of the last 5 or 6 games I wouldn't bet the house on Wacha having a better major league career than Shelby. I'm not saying Shelby will end up better, but I am saying there will not be a significant difference barring injury. Shelby will be a high 2 or #1 pitcher. In fact he wasn't that far from it at 22 years old. Wacha has been ridiculously good but what did Shelby's number look like 12 starts in? How about 75.1 IP, 16 er's for an era of about 1.8 and just under 10k's per 9.

[slu72]

The alleged "'cheating' rhetoric" was not raised by me in relation to the Boston Red Sox, although it obviously could have been. A little dab will do you. Should MLB have chemists and a laboratory on site for Game 5? There's still time to call the SLU Chemistry Department, which is barely 2 miles away. Nah, it's Boston. Just pawk the caw.

The home plate ball-strike umpiring has clearly been pro-Boston, as have the Fox Box reviews. Some highly questionable balls called strikes against Cardinal hitters have not even been shown on either replay or the Fox Box.

Biased? Yes, I'm proud to be a lifelong Cardinal fan, rooting for the team with 11 World Championships and 19 National League pennants. I have followed the team since El Birdos beat Boston in the '67 World Series at the hallowed and ancient (even then) Fenway Park, "Champagne and Lonborg"- Not!

I also have eyes that provide vision. And I know full well, as do many others, what I have seen.

Hey, Bay, lighten up and figure out what that Google barge is all about. I was at the 2nd game of that 67 series when Jim L tossed a one hitter against your beloved Cards. Damn Javier got a double off him, but Yaz saved the day w/2 HRs. I still have the program and, damn, those 60 mod chicks in the ads still look hot.

Look, appreciate this series for what it is; two of the most iconic teams in the history of baseball. Every game, save for the first, has been a classic. Although, a little too much pitching and not enough hitting for my tastes, but that's baseball. I don't really see where the Sox are getting breaks on the pitches, but a moot point since they're subjective calls that don't have the benefit of Fox's strike zone overlay. And you cannot deny Papi is the new Mr. October.

I think it goes 7 since Yacha is going tomorrow night. And that's the way a WS should be, although I still miss those afternoon games of the 50s and 60s.

Oh, and as an aside, the Cards have always been my favorite NL team. I'd happily cheer for them against any AL team, except for the Sawx! Go Sawx! Go Bills!

[billiken_roy]

Good post skip