ESPN recognizing our mad recruiting

[NH]

KM will continue to play the pg the majority of minutes unless Jett is spectacular early, however, the offense will continue to flow through Kyle when he is on the floor with KM.

Why does the offense have to run through one guy? And also, I dont think it is fair to say that the offense was run through KC and not KM, but we wont settle that debate.

Of course Kyle would have a better assist to turnover ratio, he was scared to attack the basket for half the year. KM passed up assist opportunities because he had to, KC had fewer turnovers because he didn't attack the basket for a lot of the year. I really think we will see KM's assists go way up next year.

[billiken_roy]

Cranford was the best player I ever saw at dribbling for 15 seconds and not moving 1 inch.

i will never forget cranford's appearance. simple shocked. i couldnt believe spoon allowed it to happen and it cemented the fact that spoon was a lazy recruiter that obviously had never seen cranford play.

that said, the more pathetic and regretful memorable laugh was watching greg hardin walk into that midnight madness at least 70 lbs overweight. again, what was spoon thinking?

but by god, they were both nyc scoring champions by all accounts. and we all argued how they would be difference makers. that is up until that october.

[NashvilleBilliken]

If KM is our best pure pg lets hope he makes considerable improvement in finding the open man and protecting the ball next year. Name me all the pg's who lead their team in scoring and not in assists. I guarantee you there isn't many. KM wasn't even close to the top 10 in the conference in assists or assist to t/o ratio but he was in the top 10 in scoring, fg%, and 3 pt fg%.

Of course you may be right but the stats say otherwise. So if you are, lets hope he's working hard over the summer we need much better from him next year.

Agree with this. This is Kwamain's team and he is our point guard, but feel he has trouble finding that open man. Kyle makes a lot of passes that nobody on the team can make. I even saw some of that out of Ellis. Kwamain is a solid point guard, but he has a scorer's mentality. I generally like my PG's to have a pass first mentality. Which is better is debatable and people have made a lot of money as either. That's not really the point. KM will get his minutes...probably the same as last year...but it will not be exclusively at the 1. I think all three of these guys (KM, MM and JJ) will get time at the 1...with KM and MM getting some solid 2 minutes. We have a ton of talent on this team at the 1 and 2 and I have no idea how it will shake out. If we are truly running, we could even see somebody play the 3 for a stretch. I could see Cassity at the 3 as well in certain situations.

[NH]

Agree with this. This is Kwamain's team and he is our point guard, but feel he has trouble finding that open man. Kyle makes a lot of passes that nobody on the team can make. I even saw some of that out of Ellis. Kwamain is a solid point guard, but he has a scorer's mentality. I generally like my PG's to have a pass first mentality. Which is better is debatable and people have made a lot of money as either. That's not really the point. KM will get his minutes...probably the same as last year...but it will not be exclusively at the 1. I think all three of these guys (KM, MM and JJ) will get time at the 1...with KM and MM getting some solid 2 minutes. We have a ton of talent on this team at the 1 and 2 and I have no idea how it will shake out. If we are truly running, we could even see somebody play the 3 for a stretch. I could see Cassity at the 3 as well in certain situations.

My whole point is that if KM had been a pass-first PG last year, I dont think we win 15 games because no one would have scored. Next year, KM will be more able to be a "pass-first" player.

[Clock_Tower]

So where is McCall, who until recently was our prize recruit that everyone couldn't wait to pair-up with Mitchell, going to get his minutes? Seems to me if you're playing Mitchell at the 2 and Jett at the 1 a good amount of minutes, there isn't much for MM.

My thoughts exactly. Way too early to tell.

KM was definitely our best PG last year. Based upon experience, strength, etc, I would think KM would be our best PG again this year. Last year, though, even after the addition of CE, we remained extremely weak at the 2 and 3. Outside shooting by our guards was not our strength all year. For awhile there, the good outside shooting by CE seemed to mask some of the inaccurate shooting but we were just not a good 3 point shooting team. Explanations are plenty: KC's Soph year after sitting behind KL and lack of real prior experience, CS only being a Frosh, JJ being a Frosh and only 5'9", injuries to FJ and JR, etc; however, it didn't do us any good to have KM break the press, start the offense and then get the ball to KC who was often hesitant/reluctant to shoot it, or to CS who simply missed shot after shot. At times, KC had some really nice minutes/games. When KC was hot, our team really looked good. Same with CS who had some really good minutes followed by other minutes where he didn't look so good. At times, such as the road conference game at UD, JJ came off the bench and really hit some big outside shots. Therefore, even though our best PG may have been KM, our more productive lineup seemed to be where KC took over more of the PG as NH points out to save his legs (and I say b/c he didn't want to shoot it) and then to have KM actually shoot it at as the 2 guard.

This year, if KC and/or CS improve their outside shooting and/or if MM or Jett can hit the outside shot, then KM can slide back to PG. KM played the PG as a Frosh but he did have TL and KL helping him and shooting the ball. If KC or the Freshmen (MM or JJ) log heavy minutes at PG and KM logs heavy minutes at the 2 and becomes our outside shooter, then I'd suggest that we might have another struggling year from the perimeter. I don't think this will be the case. If the new guys are as good as advertised, then KC will get every chance to play; however, if he doesn't knock down the outside shot, we will find another "glue" guy and KC's minutes will decrease.

[NH]

My thoughts exactly. Way too early to tell.

KM was definitely our best PG last year. Based upon experience, strength, etc, I would think KM would be our best PG again this year. Last year, though, even after the addition of CE, we remained extremely weak at the 2 and 3. Outside shooting by our guards was not our strength all year. For awhile there, the good outside shooting by CE seemed to mask some of the inaccurate shooting but we were just not a good 3 point shooting team. Explanations are plenty: KC's Soph year after sitting behind KL and lack of real prior experience, CS only being a Frosh, JJ being a Frosh and only 5'9", injuries to FJ and JR, etc; however, it didn't do us any good to have KM break the press, start the offense and then get the ball to KC who was often hesitant/reluctant to shoot it, or to CS who simply missed shot after shot. At times, KC had some really nice minutes/games. When KC was hot, our team really looked good. Same with CS who had some really good minutes followed by other minutes where he didn't look so good. At times, such as the road conference game at UD, JJ came off the bench and really hit some big outside shots. Therefore, even though our best PG may have been KM, our more productive lineup seemed to be where KC took over more of the PG as NH points out to save his legs (and I say b/c he didn't want to shoot it) and then to have KM actually shoot it at as the 2 guard.

This year, if KC and/or CS improve their outside shooting and/or if MM or Jett can hit the outside shot, then KM can slide back to PG. KM played the PG as a Frosh but he did have TL and KL helping him and shooting the ball. If KC or the Freshmen (MM or JJ) log heavy minutes at PG and KM logs heavy minutes at the 2 and becomes our outside shooter, then I'd suggest that we might have another struggling year from the perimeter. I don't think this will be the case. If the new guys are as good as advertised, then KC will get every chance to play; however, if he doesn't knock down the outside shot, we will find another "glue" guy and KC's minutes will decrease.

So this is what it feels like to agree with Clock_Tower

[billiken_roy]

i think mitchell is our best player. i think mitchell is our best lead guard. i think of a marque perry with better shooting skills. i do not think mitchell is an exceptional point guard. he will never be confused with h waldman. like i said, think perry. and perry ended up playing wing. not because he didnt have ball skills. perry had fabulous ball skills. he just had more of a scorer's makeup than a point guard makeup. and mitchell is the same way.

[Major Majerus]

Especially when you throw in Cassity and Salecich.

When you recall how beat up we were at the end of the year, it's a very GOOD thing to spread the minutes and have good energy on the floor at all times. I hope the coaches scratch their heads trying to figure out the minute allocation.

[NashvilleBilliken]

My whole point is that if KM had been a pass-first PG last year, I dont think we win 15 games because no one would have scored. Next year, KM will be more able to be a "pass-first" player.

I don't disagree with that at all. I guess we'll see what kind of role he has next year.

[slufanskip]

Why does the offense have to run through one guy? And also, I dont think it is fair to say that the offense was run through KC and not KM, but we wont settle that debate.

Of course Kyle would have a better assist to turnover ratio, he was scared to attack the basket for half the year. KM passed up assist opportunities because he had to, KC had fewer turnovers because he didn't attack the basket for a lot of the year. I really think we will see KM's assists go way up next year.

Just for kicks I looked up the stats from Cody's first game through the end of the conference season. I used these games because we did have another dependable scorer during that time and he was shooting pretty well from the perimiter. I would think KM's assists would have went up during that stretch since all we need are dependable scorers and KM will revert to a pass first pg.

Here's how it ended up.

KM assists season average 3.03 after CE 2.94

KM turnover season average 2.46 after CE 2.75

KM scoring season average 15.9 after CE 16.1

KC's assist season average 3.25 after CE 3.81

KC's turnover season average 2.08 after CE 1.94

KC's scoring season average 6.0 after CE 7.18

to summarize after we added CE.... KM's scoring went up his assists went down and his turnovers increased. KC's assist's went up, his turnovers went down and his scoring went up

So, maybe your right when we get more dependable scoring options KM will become more of a pass first pg, but adding CE this year didn't exactly prove that point.

[NH]

Just for kicks I looked up the stats from Cody's first game through the end of the conference season. I used these games because we did have another dependable scorer during that time and he was shooting pretty well from the perimiter. I would think KM's assists would have went up during that stretch since all we need are dependable scorers and KM will revert to a pass first pg.

Here's how it ended up.

KM assists season average 3.03 after CE 2.94

KM turnover season average 2.46 after CE 2.75

KM scoring season average 15.9 after CE 16.1

KC's assist season average 3.25 after CE 3.81

KC's turnover season average 2.08 after CE 1.94

KC's scoring season average 6.0 after CE 7.18

to summarize after we added CE.... KM's scoring went up his assists went down and his turnovers increased. KC's assist's went up, his turnovers went down and his scoring went up

So, maybe your right when we get more dependable scoring options KM will become more of a pass first pg, but adding CE this year didn't exactly prove that point.

That also coincided with two important other factors:

1) WR's drop off (happened as he got double-teamed and he faced higher quality bigs)

2) Conference play (more close games where KM took over at the end)

[slufanskip]

That also coincided with two important other factors:

1) WR's drop off (happened as he got double-teamed and he faced higher quality bigs)

2) Conference play (more close games where KM took over at the end)

KM's scoring only went up .2 per game which would mean if he was scoring so many more points at the end of games he was scoring less early in the games. What the hell was he doing the other 35 minutes? He wasn't getting more assists, you'd have thought he would be since was scoring so much less.

Why didn't WR's double team drop off affect KC's assists? or did those go up due to the passes he made at the end of the games to KM?

[RiseAndGrind]

NH

Just stop. You are getting owned.

[slufanskip]

NH

Just stop. You are getting owned.

again.

[NH]

KM's scoring only went up .2 per game which would mean if he was scoring so many more points at the end of games he was scoring less early in the games. What the hell was he doing the other 35 minutes? He wasn't getting more assists, you'd have thought he would be since was scoring so much less.

Why didn't WR's double team drop off affect KC's assists? or did those go up due to the passes he made at the end of the games to KM?

KC is an aberration. He finally started playing with confidence, which led to more minutes and therefore more points and assists. His minutes go way up once you hit conference play. KC also was less timid with the ball which led to turnovers.

Kwamain racked up assists early in the season against teams like MVSU and Eastern Illinois when he could let others do the scoring. However, when we were in close games against Charlotte, Duquesne, George Washington, Dayton and saint Josephs he averaged more than a point every two minutes in the last five minutes of those games but did not get as many assists.

Even with the addition of Cody, who else could create their own shot? Only KM, JJ and sometimes CS. So KM really had to be the scorer late in games.

I will bet anyone that KM finishes next season top 10 in the conference in assists.

[brianstl]

i think mitchell is our best player. i think mitchell is our best lead guard. i think of a marque perry with better shooting skills. i do not think mitchell is an exceptional point guard. he will never be confused with h waldman. like i said, think perry. and perry ended up playing wing. not because he didnt have ball skills. perry had fabulous ball skills. he just had more of a scorer's makeup than a point guard makeup. and mitchell is the same way.

Nice description of the situation.

My statement earlier wasn't a shot at KM. He is our best player. It is just it was becoming clear he is becoming more of a two in the offense than a one. That said, the ball will be in his hands at the end of the game.

[billiken_roy]

i would take the mitchell top ten in assists bet. loser buys ribs next time we meet up at the montgomery inn boathouse.

[RiseAndGrind]

i would take the mitchell top ten in assists bet. loser buys ribs next time we meet up at the montgomery inn boathouse.

Some damn fine ribs

[NH]

i would take the mitchell top ten in assists bet. loser buys ribs next time we meet up at the montgomery inn boathouse.

Done. Either way there will be some dang good ribs involved.

[thetorch]

I have to agree with Roy on this one. Despite Mitchell's physical dimensions and obvious skills he is a scoring guard on our team not a pass first point guard. Last year he was by far our best scorer, I don't expect that to change any time soon. If he is on the A-10 leader boards for assists our team will be radically different from last year and more talented.

[slu72]

This whole discussion just points out how much talent RM has delivered to SLU. Other than KM there really isn't a guard spot guaranteed. And what if RL starts at the 4 w/ CE at the 3? That's going to diminish the minutes of the guards. My guess is the KC and KM will be starters at the beginning of the season, subject to change however if one of our other guards shows up in Oct and proves he can light it up from the 3, ie CS or MM. Then you've got JJ as backup to KM/KC at the point and KC, CS, and MM fighting it out for minutes at the 2 spot. Way too early to speculate, but certainly fun to talk about all the options since we never had many in the past.

[Taj79]

I just like to point out that a lot of unproven assumptions are being made on this thread many of which play important roles into the logic I see here. So to draw definite conclusions at this point is futile and useless.

First of all, I too agree with Roy's statement on Mitchell. Second I agree that the talent level now in the program is the highest I have ever seen across the board dating back to 1975. Thirdly, we were indeed beat up last year at the end and having more bodies around, more good bodies from all accounts, can only help. But I don't understand how we can automatically assume KM's assists go up next year, not on what we truly know at this point.

The increase appears to come in these assumptions: CE/CS/KC all improve shooting percentages over last year; our newcomers in MM/RL/JJ can shoot; and RL's presence will open up the middle for high percentage shots from WR/BC/CR. There are some large leaps of faith there --- but bottom line is that when KM realizes he has other options that are dependable and reliable, he can loose the label of scorer and do more of what a point guard does. Until he, as the leader of this team and the guy with the ball, sees and accepts that, he will have to remain in the role of end of game scorer. Its the only certain option he knows in his mind.

I believe the fatigue factor played a lot into KC bringing the ball up the court a lot last year. KM didn't have to expend the energy to do that, saving himself for the offensive execution. KC is a nice initiator and in some ways reminded me of departed point FORWARD Ryan Leuchtefeld. I think giving that role to KC, who was guarded by the lesser guard in many cases, worked well and might have been an unrecognized stroke of coaching genius. One true point. One true scorer. One true athlete. And a short, nonsupporting bench. That's never really been talked about here but I think it led to the success reflected in that CBI run.

We don't really know if improvement ferom the returning players will come. We think it will --- I do. We don't kow if the recruits can shoot, or are the gang that couldn't shoot. Roy and willie have pointed out the NYC hopes seen in the past (don't forget Willie D. Horne). And until Loe gets here and on to the court and mixing it up with his new mates, who really knows on that account.

Some large assumptions (and do freshmen really step in and immediately contribute?). But the future is really bright IMO.

[Clock_Tower]

I just like to point out that a lot of unproven assumptions are being made on this thread many of which play important roles into the logic I see here. So to draw definite conclusions at this point is futile and useless.

First of all, I too agree with Roy's statement on Mitchell. Second I agree that the talent level now in the program is the highest I have ever seen across the board dating back to 1975. Thirdly, we were indeed beat up last year at the end and having more bodies around, more good bodies from all accounts, can only help. But I don't understand how we can automatically assume KM's assists go up next year, not on what we truly know at this point.

The increase appears to come in these assumptions: CE/CS/KC all improve shooting percentages over last year; our newcomers in MM/RL/JJ can shoot; and RL's presence will open up the middle for high percentage shots from WR/BC/CR. There are some large leaps of faith there --- but bottom line is that when KM realizes he has other options that are dependable and reliable, he can loose the label of scorer and do more of what a point guard does. Until he, as the leader of this team and the guy with the ball, sees and accepts that, he will have to remain in the role of end of game scorer. Its the only certain option he knows in his mind.

I believe the fatigue factor played a lot into KC bringing the ball up the court a lot last year. KM didn't have to expend the energy to do that, saving himself for the offensive execution. KC is a nice initiator and in some ways reminded me of departed point FORWARD Ryan Leuchtefeld. I think giving that role to KC, who was guarded by the lesser guard in many cases, worked well and might have been an unrecognized stroke of coaching genius. One true point. One true scorer. One true athlete. And a short, nonsupporting bench. That's never really been talked about here but I think it led to the success reflected in that CBI run.

We don't really know if improvement ferom the returning players will come. We think it will --- I do. We don't kow if the recruits can shoot, or are the gang that couldn't shoot. Roy and willie have pointed out the NYC hopes seen in the past (don't forget Willie D. Horne). And until Loe gets here and on to the court and mixing it up with his new mates, who really knows on that account.

Some large assumptions (and do freshmen really step in and immediately contribute?). But the future is really bright IMO.

Good points Taj. Agree with nearly all.

BTW, and not directed at Taj, but when did the definition of a really good PG become "a pass first" PG? Guess I missed that post.

Not taking anything away from H, and not saying KM is better than H, but a PG's job sure gets easier dishing the ball off to Claggs and Highmark (as Jrs. and Srs.). If H instead had last year's KC and CS as his options, believe H would have decided to keep the ball and shoot it himself more as well.

[Box and Won]

Somehow Majok Majok Majok Majok Majok Majok only got Fairfield a C+?

[kmbilliken]

i will never forget cranford's appearance. simple shocked. i couldnt believe spoon allowed it to happen and it cemented the fact that spoon was a lazy recruiter that obviously had never seen cranford play.

that said, the more pathetic and regretful memorable laugh was watching greg hardin walk into that midnight madness at least 70 lbs overweight. again, what was spoon thinking?

but by god, they were both nyc scoring champions by all accounts. and we all argued how they would be difference makers. that is up until that october.

The ultimate spoon recruit had to be Sekue Barantine. He didn't even start on his juco team and had terrible numbers. Spoon gave him a scholarship because he was desperate for a center and the juco center he thought he was going to get backed out of his verbal. Even in that situation, to only come up with a juco backup is pretty pathetic.