Expansion and Superconferences

[billiken_roy]

Some version of the Catholic Conference is going to happen, especially if ND doesn't go to the Big Ten. ND will still need want themselves align with similar schools in a conference for acedemic research reasons. I read somewhere the main reason ND won't be joining the Big Ten is because of objections about some of the medical research that goes on with the CIC. This is a very big deal to some heavy hitters at ND and the Church itself.

SLU needs to position itself both on and off the court for the chance to be included. This is not only going to be big when it comes to sports for the school, but to the schools academic standing.

if the other rumored back room deal is actually being formulated whereby the acc, sec, pac 10 and big 10 break away from the ncaa and form their own super alliance, notre dame is going to the big 10. money will win out over ethics.

[b.hayes]

I think you're right. Although, I don't know what it takes not to get into U of I. I knew/know some Illini grads who had shitferbrains. Good school, but like any other massive state school, there are some unimpressive kids who can sneak in and out.

And Iowa is still higher ranked than Mizzou by a decent margin. Just had to get than in.

When I applied to undergrad at UofI with an ACT of 32 and a diploma from a highly respected Chicago high school I did not get in. Part of it depends on your program (business is harder to get into than liberal arts or agriculture) and part of it depends on whether or not the admissions officer was one of the "shitferbrains" that managed to sneak in and out probably. I think it also has to do with where you are from -- Illinois doesn't want to accept everyone from Chicagoland, they want to spread out their net elsewhere, even if it means leaving some better students out. They want to be a "destination school". Iowa did the same thing; one year everyone from my highschool that didn't get into Illinois went to Iowa and then all of the sudden the next year no one could even get INTO Iowa.

I was e-mailed my acceptance to UofI's graduate accounting program yesterday, and I will take a little slice of joy sending them my rejection e-mail back.

[Pistol]

When I applied to undergrad at UofI with an ACT of 32 and a diploma from a highly respected Chicago high school I did not get in. Part of it depends on your program (business is harder to get into than liberal arts or agriculture) and part of it depends on whether or not the admissions officer was one of the "shitferbrains" that managed to sneak in and out probably. I think it also has to do with where you are from -- Illinois doesn't want to accept everyone from Chicagoland, they want to spread out their net elsewhere, even if it means leaving some better students out. They want to be a "destination school". Iowa did the same thing; one year everyone from my highschool that didn't get into Illinois went to Iowa and then all of the sudden the next year no one could even get INTO Iowa.

I was e-mailed my acceptance to UofI's graduate accounting program yesterday, and I will take a little slice of joy sending them my rejection e-mail back.

College admissions is a funny game. There are so many factors and I always feel bad for the kids that seem to have done everything they could and still get the small envelope. That's unreal to me that as an in-state kid with a 32 you didn't get in. I guess you make a good point about the different programs; smaller schools just have you apply to the university, whereas some larger state universities make you apply to a program within the university, and all of them have different standards. I always thought that sucked because something like 80% of kids change majors anyway. I didn't declare until the end of sophomore year when my advisor reminded me I had to do so.

Nice work on the grad accounting- where will you be going instead?

[b.hayes]

That's unreal to me that as an in-state kid with a 32 you didn't get in.

I thought so to, but them's the brakes I guess. It didn't end up mattering in the end because I would've chosen SLU over UofI by the time I decided anyway. It was just weird. you may remember the UofI scandal from a year or two ago about the so-called "clout-list". Not sure how much press it got outside of Illinois, but perhaps I was someone who got bumped because of a state senator's son or something. Who knows.

Nice work on the grad accounting- where will you be going instead?

Letting the company pay for DePaul's MST program. Everything works out in the end.

[Box and Won]

I thought so to, but them's the brakes I guess. It didn't end up mattering in the end because I would've chosen SLU over UofI by the time I decided anyway. It was just weird. you may remember the UofI scandal from a year or two ago about the so-called "clout-list". Not sure how much press it got outside of Illinois, but perhaps I was someone who got bumped because of a state senator's son or something. Who knows.

I heard about it on NPR, so I'd say it got quite a bit of press.

College admissions can be tricky. There were schools I got into that my sister didn't (I had a better ACT score while she had better grades), most likely by virtue of the fact that there were so many more kids in her senior class (nationwide) than in mine. Had she been closer to my age, I'm sure she would have been accepted to those schools.

[Pistol]

It was definitely a national story. I'm sure it goes on at a lot of places and has been for years, they just happen to be the ones who got caught. It's not a huge portion of the incoming class, but it still sucks. As unfair as Notre Dame's two-track admissions system is- one for legacies, one for the rest- at least they're honest about it and are a private school.

DePaul has some great grad programs for people already working, and the deal is that much sweeter if the company is paying for it. I may have hung around Chicago and tried to do an MBA there if my former bank, which paid 80% of all costs, hadn't been acquired by my current back, which pays $5,000 a year towards it. You're lucky; not a whole lot of companies pay for that anymore.

[willie]

It was definitely a national story. I'm sure it goes on at a lot of places and has been for years, they just happen to be the ones who got caught. It's not a huge portion of the incoming class, but it still sucks. As unfair as Notre Dame's two-track admissions system is- one for legacies, one for the rest- at least they're honest about it and are a private school.

DePaul has some great grad programs for people already working, and the deal is that much sweeter if the company is paying for it. I may have hung around Chicago and tried to do an MBA there if my former bank, which paid 80% of all costs, hadn't been acquired by my current back, which pays $5,000 a year towards it. You're lucky; not a whole lot of companies pay for that anymore.

So you are a banker. How do you sleep at night knowing that you almost took down the American economy? You almost put Roy out of work.

[billiken_roy]

So you are a banker. How do you sleep at night knowing that you almost took down the American economy? You almost put Roy out of work.

actually willie, as a community banker, i am part of the banking industry that did things the right way and didnt spit on the country and are on solid ground. of course we are also the banks that are paying the biggest costs in increased fdic premiums and higher reserve requirements and will take the short end of the stick in the proposed horrible financial reform bill that is about to pass.

the public hears "financial reform" and thinks sure we need that so the same doesnt happen again, not realizing that the bill will actually protect the "too big to fail" banks and institutions and put draconian pressures on the small community banks with needless reforms and requirements that will likely only succeed in running more of the little guys out of business to be gobbled up by the tarp saturated big banks that will once again be protected by the govt.

[JMM28]

actually willie, as a community banker, i am part of the banking industry that did things the right way and didnt spit on the country and are on solid ground. of course we are also the banks that are paying the biggest costs in increased fdic premiums and higher reserve requirements and will take the short end of the stick in the proposed horrible financial reform bill that is about to pass.

I feel for the local banks because, like you said, they will definitely get screwed on this. I always try to do my business through a local bank, because they tend to be a lot more stable. I can't begin to count the number of times the current National City soon to be PNC bank here has changed names. But there are 3 local banks that have been the same for 50+ years. It is nice to go into a place and have mostly the same people there.

[b.hayes]

It was definitely a national story. I'm sure it goes on at a lot of places and has been for years, they just happen to be the ones who got caught. It's not a huge portion of the incoming class, but it still sucks. As unfair as Notre Dame's two-track admissions system is- one for legacies, one for the rest- at least they're honest about it and are a private school.

DePaul has some great grad programs for people already working, and the deal is that much sweeter if the company is paying for it. I may have hung around Chicago and tried to do an MBA there if my former bank, which paid 80% of all costs, hadn't been acquired by my current back, which pays $5,000 a year towards it. You're lucky; not a whole lot of companies pay for that anymore.

Agreed - getting someone to pay for school is major clutch. It essentially inflates my salary since my $$$ isn't getting sucked out of my pocket into the business school money vacuum.

[kshoe]

actually willie, as a community banker, i am part of the banking industry that did things the right way and didnt spit on the country and are on solid ground. of course we are also the banks that are paying the biggest costs in increased fdic premiums and higher reserve requirements and will take the short end of the stick in the proposed horrible financial reform bill that is about to pass.

the public hears "financial reform" and thinks sure we need that so the same doesnt happen again, not realizing that the bill will actually protect the "too big to fail" banks and institutions and put draconian pressures on the small community banks with needless reforms and requirements that will likely only succeed in running more of the little guys out of business to be gobbled up by the tarp saturated big banks that will once again be protected by the govt.

Roy = Ray Vinson

Just kidding Roy. How that guy still is is business is beyond me.

[havelj]

Let's have some fun...

The 18 potential schools who might be in this Catholic Conference once the BigTen dusts settles are listed below.

I could see it being anywhere from 10-18 schools, but will assume 12 with East and West divisions. (Below that, I listed all the details of all 18 schools; the schools are sorted by 2009 endowment.)

EAST

Georgetown

St. John's

Villanova

Seton Hall

St. Joseph

Providence

(add Fordham, LaSalle, St. Bonaventure-if all 18)

WEST

Notre Dame

SLU

Marquette

Dayton

DePaul

Xavier

(add Loyola, Duquesne, Detroit Mercy-if all 18)

[thetorch]

I know we all hope for a consolidated private school conference but I see some big negatives to it.

For the same reasons we don't want to be in a conference with Fordham, St Bonaventure, Duquesne, LaSalle, why would we want to be a in a conference with Big East castoffs who no longer are propped up by the football schools and their added money?

Of course Georgetown and Villanova can survive on their own but without the BE conference affiliation where is Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, and DePaul? Their history would be no better than ours if not worse.

I don't think the strong A-10 schools should just arbitrarily merge with the BE privates. Everyone should be evaluated. I see that huge conference being a bunch of dead weight and being no better than the A-10. While somebody always has to be last lets take the 8 strongest private programs and make a conference that can not only compete but prevail over the superconferences. Just because these other schools come from the BE doesn't mean they make the cut.

[milwaukeebill]

i mean. if the big east splits up those schools will be looking for a new conference. therefore we would basically have to join with these schools...which i certainly have no problem with. The big east schools would basically be the deciders as to what the new conference would involve and all the big east fans are certain that dayton and xavier are the next two programs to join...i hope our commitment stays strong and we make noise in the tournament the next 2 years as this will be when the conference realignment occurs.

[Hawk]

Of course Georgetown and Villanova can survive on their own but without the BE conference affiliation where is Providence, St. Johns, Seton Hall, and DePaul? Their history would be no better than ours if not worse.

Uh.... no.

------

From wiki:

St Johns: 7th most winningest program in college basketball history (1686 wins), 7th-most NCAA tournament appearances (27), two Wooden National Player of the Year Award Winners, 11 consensus All-Americans, 6 members of the College Basketball Hall of Fame, and has sent 59 players to the NBA. They their home games at Madison Square Garden, St. John's has the most NIT appearances with 27, the most championship wins with 6. In 2008, St. John's celebrated its 100th year of college basketball.

Providence: won the 1961 and 1963 NIT championship and participated in the 1973 and 1987 Final Four, and the 1997 squad advanced to the NCAA Elite Eight. Overall, the team has 15 NCAA basketball tournament berths and 16 NIT berths, as well as twenty four basketball All-Americans. In addition to producing NBA players, former Friars have also gone on to become basketball icons in the coaching world, such as Rick Pitino, Billy Donovan, Lenny Wilkens, Pete Gillen, Rick Barnes, and John Thompson.

Seton Hall: won the National Invitation Tournament (NIT) in 1953, and lost in the finals of the 1989 NCAA Tournament to Michigan, 80–79 in overtime.

9 NCAA appearances with 1 Final Four , 16 NIT appearances. 3 Consensus All-Americans.

Depaul: 18 NCAA appearances with 2 Final Fours; NIT Champions in 1945, 16 NIT appearances. 8 players in the NBA, 4 current.

[billiken_roy]

Roy = Ray Vinson

Just kidding Roy. How that guy still is is business is beyond me.

rv is a disgrace to the mortgage industry. the likes of that is exactly what went wrong. i cringe every time i hear a commercial. what those mortgage brokers do to customers is horrible

[slu72]

Let's have some fun...

The 18 potential schools who might be in this Catholic Conference once the BigTen dusts settles are listed below.

I could see it being anywhere from 10-18 schools, but will assume 12 with East and West divisions. (Below that, I listed all the details of all 18 schools; the schools are sorted by 2009 endowment.)

EAST

Georgetown

St. John's

Villanova

Seton Hall

St. Joseph

Providence

(add Fordham, LaSalle, St. Bonaventure-if all 18)

WEST

Notre Dame

SLU

Marquette

Dayton

DePaul

Xavier

(add Loyola, Duquesne, Detroit Mercy-if all 18)

I find X's endowment to be surprisingly low. Also, Villanovas... got to hand it to SLU being in the top 3 w/ ND and GU. ND at 4.8 bil's amazing.

[MB73]

EAST

Georgetown

St. John's

Villanova

Seton Hall

St. Joseph

Providence

(add Fordham, LaSalle, St. Bonaventure-if all 18)

WEST

Notre Dame

SLU

Marquette

Dayton

DePaul

Xavier

(add Loyola, Duquesne, Detroit Mercy-if all 18)

RE: "above": you are dreaming. Of course I hope it happens, but putting together an all Catholic Conference, even less formidable than the gigantis above, is a long shot at best.

RE: inconsistencies with college admisssions, do not forget affirmative action quotas, there are studies on this so do not scream at me and call me names.

RE: bankers, there are good bankers, and there are those that take advantage of their power and stink it up for everyone

[Bay Area Billiken]

EAST

Georgetown

St. John's

Villanova

Seton Hall

St. Joseph

Providence

(add Fordham, LaSalle, St. Bonaventure-if all 18)

WEST

Notre Dame

SLU

Marquette

Dayton

DePaul

Xavier

(add Loyola, Duquesne, Detroit Mercy-if all 18)

RE: "above": you are dreaming. Of course I hope it happens, but putting together an all Catholic Conference, even less formidable than the gigantis above, is a long shot at best.

RE: inconsistencies with college admisssions, do not forget affirmative action quotas, there are studies on this so do not scream at me and call me names.

RE: bankers, there are good bankers, and there are those that take advantage of their power and stink it up for everyone

Rather than being reactive, my wish is that the Catholic schools, for once, would be proactive and proactive as a group, rather that acting in each's own self interests. Of course, the Catholic schools being proactive as a group will not happen. There are little alliances (ND, Marquette, DePaul), (Xavier, Dayton, perhaps SLU), but not enough of them acting together.

The way I look at these upcoming conference dominos, everything is dependent and contingent on what Notre Dame decides to do. Notre Dame really does not want to go to the Big Ten, from what I can tell. There is talk about old wounds, about alumni wanting to stay Indepenent, etc. But the $7M annual differential in TV revenue does speak and must have some influence.

If ND decides to remain Independent in Football and stay in the Big East in everything else, then does the Big Ten raid the Big East for anywhere from 3 to 4 schools (Syracuse, Rutgers, Pittsburgh, UConn) and perhaps the Big 12 for 1 school (Mizzou or Nebraska?). That's where the remaining Catholic Big East could expand to fill the void (Xavier, Dayton, SLU?).

If ND goes to the Big Ten, the Big Ten expansion could end right there.

[xudash]

I find X's endowment to be surprisingly low. Also, Villanovas... got to hand it to SLU being in the top 3 w/ ND and GU. ND at 4.8 bil's amazing.

That Xavier number isn't right, but maybe because of when the table was generated.

X's endowment, prior to whatever will go into it from an existing capital campaign that is about fully subscribed (minus dollars for construction projects) is about $130mm. BTW, it is too small, but it is a key area that Xavier has been properly focused on since 1990 when Hoff came on board as President. Otherwise, X is very strongly positioned financially.

Kudos to St. Louis for having managed the E side of academia.

[thetorch]

Uh.... no.

------

From wiki:

St Johns: 7th most winningest program in college basketball history (1686 wins), 7th-most NCAA tournament appearances (27), two Wooden National Player of the Year Award Winners, 11 consensus All-Americans, 6 members of the College Basketball Hall of Fame, and has sent 59 players to the NBA. They their home games at Madison Square Garden, St. John's has the most NIT appearances with 27, the most championship wins with 6. In 2008, St. John's celebrated its 100th year of college basketball.

Providence: won the 1961 and 1963 NIT championship and participated in the 1973 and 1987 Final Four, and the 1997 squad advanced to the NCAA Elite Eight. Overall, the team has 15 NCAA basketball tournament berths and 16 NIT berths, as well as twenty four basketball All-Americans. In addition to producing NBA players, former Friars have also gone on to become basketball icons in the coaching world, such as Rick Pitino, Billy Donovan, Lenny Wilkens, Pete Gillen, Rick Barnes, and John Thompson.

Seton Hall: won the National Invitation Tournament (NIT) in 1953, and lost in the finals of the 1989 NCAA Tournament to Michigan, 80–79 in overtime.

9 NCAA appearances with 1 Final Four , 16 NIT appearances. 3 Consensus All-Americans.

Depaul: 18 NCAA appearances with 2 Final Fours; NIT Champions in 1945, 16 NIT appearances. 8 players in the NBA, 4 current.

You are proving my point. St. Johns hasn't been relevant in a decade. They couldn't hang in the BE before the expansion. Same with Seton Hall though they may be worse. Providence has had middling success. They'll have an NBA player come through their program every 5 years, make a tourney and then go back to the bottom of the BE.

Those schools along with Rutgers ride on the other programs coattails in their conference. Those schools haven't competed or recruited nationally since the early 90s. Take them out of the Big East and their facilities and budgets will drag them down. I firmly believe if Duquesne, Fordham, and LaSalle replaced them in the BE 30 years ago they would have similar resumes without making much of a commitment to their programs.

[cheeseman]

Is it possible that the BCS football schools would just form their own regional super conferences and let the BB and other sports form their own smaller conferences? - would that not solve all these problems? Where is it written that all the teams have to be in the same conference? - look at ND. This kind of a solution would create the opportunity to form good BB leagues without worrying about who has football or not and it would have little or no impact one way or the other on the non revenue sports. The only problem I see is that that the non BCS good football teams would be screwed worse then they already are since the BCS football schools would surely freeze them out of any BCS type bowls.

[brianstl]

Is it possible that the BCS football schools would just form their own regional super conferences and let the BB and other sports form their own smaller conferences? - would that not solve all these problems? Where is it written that all the teams have to be in the same conference? - look at ND. This kind of a solution would create the opportunity to form good BB leagues without worrying about who has football or not and it would have little or no impact one way or the other on the non revenue sports. The only problem I see is that that the non BCS good football teams would be screwed worse then they already are since the BCS football schools would surely freeze them out of any BCS type bowls.

THis is what I think will eventually happen. As the big schools try to find a way to control travel costs for their other programs.

[billikendave]

Noticed this on CNNSI. Again, nothing new or definitive but SEC is starting to "look around" for contingent plans for new members if something big happens. If this is the public statement from the SEC, I have to believe that Big 10 and Pac 10 are seriously considering a big splash ....

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/foot....html?eref=sihp