Awful Commentary

[ACE]

I can understand that he may be upset but the real problem here was that they both ended up at SLU and Brad did not recruit effectively to support them.

That's the most important point. I can understand KL and TL being frustrated having to play for a new coach, but their greatest frustration should be with the coach who brought them in, but then failed to bring in ANYBODY who could make a meaningful contribution at the point, power forward or a suitable replacement for Ian. At the time, many of us pointed out that the recruitiing was heading in the wrong direction. Soide's last 5 signing periods after landing TL and KL were absolutely terrible. If we had stayed the course with no flunk outs, our upperclassmen for the upcoming season would consist of Obie, Horace, Knollmeyer, Maguire, A.Mitchell, Relphorde... am I missing anybody? Terrible.

[Guest BillikenReport]

If we had stayed the course with no flunk outs, our upperclassmen for the upcoming season would consist of Obie, Horace, Knollmeyer, Maguire, A.Mitchell, Relphorde... am I missing anybody? Terrible.

Let's look back at recruiting ...

Here is the Liddell/Lisch recruiting class:

http://saintlouis.scout.com/a.z?s=437&...=bb&yr=2005

Which was followed up by this:

http://saintlouis.scout.com/a.z?s=437&...=bb&yr=2006

Maguire was an early commitment who did not have another other scholarship offers when he pledged to SLU. Knollmeyer was at one point committed to Missouri, but ended up signing with SLU in the spring after considering low-major type schools.

And then this:

http://saintlouis.scout.com/a.z?s=437&...=bb&yr=2006

Relphorde was a prospect who had interest from several schools and seemed like a guy with a good future. Mitchell was a player who didn't have many options out of high school until he got the scholarship offer from SLU.

Eberhardt was recruited by Soderberg, but did not commit to him. He was signed by Majerus.

I'm probably missing some guys because I'm going off the rosters on the SLUBillikens.com site and some guys (like Horace Dixon) were removed from those rosters after they left. Dixon left in 2006.

[slu72]

There is alot of truth in that article. No question Liddell especially went backwards under Majerus. And the team likely after next year will still not be back to the level it was in Soderburg's last year. A million a year is a lot of money for those kind of results.

One thing that he totally ignored was the in TL and KL's soph seasons we had IV who drew a lot of attention from our perimiter game. There was a reason TL fired up 386 shots that year: he was open because someone was doubling on IV. Ok, we've been over that many times. More to the philosophy of the article. Scott, as a journalist of sorts, has the right to knock anyone he wants and express his opinion, especially about a public figure like a HC. And as readers we have our right to express an opinion about his lack of skills, research, and expertise on the subject. It's pretty obvious this article was primarily about TL's downward spiral under RM. He had to toss KL into the mix to make it balanced. It's been no secret since RM's arrival there has been tension between the TL III camp and RM's coaching style/system. TLIII's dad's internet post, hell that made SI, TL III's lack of enthusiasm, and of course the snub on Senior night. I don't know if KL had similar issues but it's a possibility since both were recruited by UB they felt an allegiance to him much like Cheryl did. All that said, if TL and KL wanted to make their senior season memorable AND were as good as advertised they should have. To think a HC would have kept them from that is ridiculous. But what was the real reason? Lack of overall talent the last two years was. I'm surprised Scott didn't say the Billikens would have been a tourney team under UB, of course that would have been hard to do given he'd thrown UB under the bus with the "Lost in Space" moniker. He could have used "Death of a Salesman" and been right on the mark. Would UB have got us into a tournament last season with what he had coming in? C'mon, not even close. How about this year? Not unless he'd recruited a couple of JUCO all americans along with Tyreke Evans and Samuels. What would his lineup have been this year, BE, TL, KL, DM (who he benched in favor of a walk on), and AK? How far do you think that lineup would have carried us this past year. Mr. Scott failed to take the whole situation into consideration and laid the blame totally on RM. Unfair. And Broy, I can't believe you agree totally with him.... which your post indicates you did. Face it, you really have a distaste for RM and like Rush Limbaugh hopes Obama fails, you hope he does as well.

[jimbofive]

So you start your post by decrying name calling and then end it by saying "rick haters love the article". LMAO.

Calling someone what they are is not name calling.

[OC]

John Chaney's win total this year > Maurice Scott's credibility

[ACE]

Let's look back at recruiting ...

Here is the Liddell/Lisch recruiting class:

http://saintlouis.scout.com/a.z?s=437&...=bb&yr=2005

Which was followed up by this:

http://saintlouis.scout.com/a.z?s=437&...=bb&yr=2006

Maguire was an early commitment who did not have another other scholarship offers when he pledged to SLU. Knollmeyer was at one point committed to Missouri, but ended up signing with SLU in the spring after considering low-major type schools.

And then this:

http://saintlouis.scout.com/a.z?s=437&...=bb&yr=2006

Relphorde was a prospect who had interest from several schools and seemed like a guy with a good future. Mitchell was a player who didn't have many options out of high school until he got the scholarship offer from SLU.

Eberhardt was recruited by Soderberg, but did not commit to him. He was signed by Majerus.

I'm probably missing some guys because I'm going off the rosters on the SLUBillikens.com site and some guys (like Horace Dixon) were removed from those rosters after they left. Dixon left in 2006.

I thought Liddell and Lisch both signed in the fall? That link says Lisch signed in the spring. In any event, after signing Lisch, we needed bigs and still had a couple open scholarships that spring, and all Sodie came up with Obie. I remember at the time thinking Sodie needed to land a decent big who could contribute the following, considering Obie was going to have to sit out a year. It didn't happen and downward recruiting spiral was in motion.

[billiken_roy]

the "shot numbers" are very misleading. i do not remember any billikens having to hoist as many shot clock running down shots per game as what liddell and lisch did this season. probably at least 3 each per game if not more. take away about 60-70 shots for each player.

[moytoy12]

the "shot numbers" are very misleading. i do not remember any billikens having to hoist as many shot clock running down shots per game as what liddell and lisch did this season. probably at least 3 each per game if not more. take away about 60-70 shots for each player.

I remember it happening a lot under Sodie.

[NashvilleBilliken]

I remember it happening a lot under Sodie.

I thought the same thing. Wasn't that Brad's whole offense? (and I'm was/is a pro Soderberg guy)

[billiken_roy]

I remember it happening a lot under Sodie.

i dont think it was anywhere near as much. check out rickma's team ppg the last two seasons, compared to soderberg's the last two years. rickma was the bigger clock runner.

[3Jack]

Roy is correct. Kem Pomeroy has a stat for Tempo/Pace and SLU has been one of the slowest teams in the country under Majerus ranking 333 in 2008 and 328 in 2009. Soderberg's last team was ranked 264.

[davidnark]

pretty much summed it up correctly if you ask me.

So Roy, are you now telling us that you have also have a complete disregard for the truth and that facts don't matter? At some point you need to get over your man-crush.

[Cowboy]

So you start your post by decrying name calling and then end it by saying "rick haters love the article". LMAO.

-no name calling, none at all, what name do you see associated, other than mine, in that line?

[Soderball]

Liddell has clearly not been the same player he was his freshman/sophomore years. His aggression was GONE, he REFUSED to take the ball to the basket. Lisch's career has just been plagued by injuries, ever since that finger-splitting incident. Majerus can be as big of a jerk as you like, but these past few years are simply Soderberg's fault. Look at the recruiting classes, we were recruiting 2-3 players the last two years of Soderberg at the helm, now we have seven and five. What the hell is Mr. Scott talking about?

[3Jack]

-no name calling, none at all, what name do you see associated, other than mine, in that line?

Calling people who agreed with the article Rick haters? That's not name calling. LOL with that.

[slu72]

Liddell has clearly not been the same player he was his freshman/sophomore years. His aggression was GONE, he REFUSED to take the ball to the basket. Lisch's career has just been plagued by injuries, ever since that finger-splitting incident. Majerus can be as big of a jerk as you like, but these past few years are simply Soderberg's fault. Look at the recruiting classes, we were recruiting 2-3 players the last two years of Soderberg at the helm, now we have seven and five. What the hell is Mr. Scott talking about?

Mr. Scott failed to mention UB surrounded the two East Side talents with any thing resembling D1 talent. He also failed to mention that RM's two recruiting classes are probably the best SLU's had in 15 or so years. Isn't this the same guy that said TL was for sure going to UNLV when TL III went thru his period of uncertainty. Too bad Scott doesn't live in Indy. I'd like to see what he'd write about Crean's first year as HC.

[Guest BillikenReport]

Here's another perspective on the Liddell-Lisch era:

http://suburbanjournals.stltoday.com/artic...-artcolumn0.txt

[davidnark]

Here's another perspective on the Liddell-Lisch era:

http://suburbanjournals.stltoday.com/artic...-artcolumn0.txt

The last paragraph of that article is just bizarre. He makes a snide comment in favor of the MVC by touting a "record 7 postseason teams" but fails to mention that the A-10 put 3x as many teams in the big dance.

[billiken_roy]

So Roy, are you now telling us that you have also have a complete disregard for the truth and that facts don't matter? At some point you need to get over your man-crush.

if there is a blind crush, it is the one that you and many others have for the weaknesses and faults of rickma.

[billiken_roy]

The last paragraph of that article is just bizarre. He makes a snide comment in favor of the MVC by touting a "record 7 postseason teams" but fails to mention that the A-10 put 3x as many teams in the big dance.

art has long been an mvc proponent. earl austin and i argued with art for half of a high school game one night and shot down every single point art had and when it got to that point art still said, "but even then, doesnt the mvc make more sense". earl and i just shook our heads and quit.

[thetorch]

Mo Scott is a hack, a wannabe power broker, who can't hold down a job. It is great that he has tried to be a father figure for so many athletes in the area, sadly these kids deserve better than him. Mo personally pushed for Tommie to back out of his commitment to SLU and join Kruger at UNLV. He doesn't deserve our attention. He will never ever be a SLU supporter and it doesn't really matter. More people read this message board today than will read his columns at the STL American.

On the larger issue of Rick's coaching style, lets face it Majerus was very upfront about this. He was going to implement his system at the expense of existing players. I would have loved to see Lisch and Liddell have more success, but they were good players not great. We got as much out of them as we could. It is sad to have to sacrifice the college careers of these young men for greater success in the future but as a SLU fan I was prepared to do that. We would not be better under our previous regime. Majerus has us poised for success. In the end that is all I care about.

[davidnark]

if there is a blind crush, it is the one that you and many others have for the weaknesses and faults of rickma.

Roy, there is nothing blind about my view of Rick Majerus because I don't live in a black and white world. I recognize that he is a bizarre man who lives in a hotel room; who lives, dreams, sleeps, and obsesses about basketball 24/7; who can be crude, ruthless, and downright inappropriate around his players, coaches, and staff; and who can dismiss or ignore those who don't necessarily suit his needs. I frankly think I would have had a very difficult time playing for him had I ever had that kind of opportunity. However, I also recognize that he has a good heart and cares deeply about his players' academics and their development and growth off the court. I know that he takes pride and values the university and its academic mission. I find his candor and honesty--even if it does require some patience for tangential thoughts--to be a refreshing contrast to stereotypical polished and cliched sports personalities. I appreciate the enormous depth of knowledge about basketball (and at times life) that he shares when he speaks. Most importantly, I appreciate his long-term vision and realistic approach to bringing success to SLU basketball. That, my friend Roy, is not a "crush;" instead it is a balanced and fair view of a complex person.

[Guest BillikenReport]

Roy, there is nothing blind about my view of Rick Majerus because I don't live in a black and white world. I recognize that he is a bizarre man who lives in a hotel room; who lives, dreams, sleeps, and obsesses about basketball 24/7; who can be crude, ruthless, and downright inappropriate around his players, coaches, and staff; and who can dismiss or ignore those who don't necessarily suit his needs. I frankly think I would have had a very difficult time playing for him had I ever had that kind of opportunity. However, I also recognize that he has a good heart and cares deeply about his players' academics and their development and growth off the court. I know that he takes pride and values the university and its academic mission. I find his candor and honesty--even if it does require some patience for tangential thoughts--to be a refreshing contrast to stereotypical polished and cliched sports personalities. I appreciate the enormous depth of knowledge about basketball (and at times life) that he shares when he speaks. Most importantly, I appreciate his long-term vision and realistic approach to bringing success to SLU basketball. That, my friend Roy, is not a "crush;" instead it is a balanced and fair view of a complex person.

Very well stated.

[drkelsey55]

Roy, there is nothing blind about my view of Rick Majerus because I don't live in a black and white world. I recognize that he is a bizarre man who lives in a hotel room; who lives, dreams, sleeps, and obsesses about basketball 24/7; who can be crude, ruthless, and downright inappropriate around his players, coaches, and staff; and who can dismiss or ignore those who don't necessarily suit his needs. I frankly think I would have had a very difficult time playing for him had I ever had that kind of opportunity. However, I also recognize that he has a good heart and cares deeply about his players' academics and their development and growth off the court. I know that he takes pride and values the university and its academic mission. I find his candor and honesty--even if it does require some patience for tangential thoughts--to be a refreshing contrast to stereotypical polished and cliched sports personalities. I appreciate the enormous depth of knowledge about basketball (and at times life) that he shares when he speaks. Most importantly, I appreciate his long-term vision and realistic approach to bringing success to SLU basketball. That, my friend Roy, is not a "crush;" instead it is a balanced and fair view of a complex person.

I think that about covers everything!!

Don't think it could have been said better or more accurately!!

[Quality Is Job 1]

I didn't realize Chaney was still coaching. I also didn't realize that he didn't put the ball in those two player's hands during the game. Just awful.

Seriously, Roy? That article was wrong on so many levels. The most obvious mistakes:

First, John Chaney still coaches?

Secondly, Cotto wasn't chased off by Majerus. Also, Kwaimain was never close to leaving.

Roy is correct about one thing. Maurice Scott was referring to comments Coach Chaney made earlier in Liddell's and Lisch's careers -- while he was still coaching.

Other than that, I feel that Scott's opinion piece is garbage. I posted a comment:

Ruben Cotto left on his own because he has loftier personal goals than his talent actually permits. Coach Majerus DID NOT run Cotto off, nor is he afraid Kwamain Mitchell wants to transfer.

This opinion article is full of bias and negative spin, not to mention falsehoods. It's obvious that the author has an agenda against Majerus, if not also SLU.

I still admire Tommie Liddell III and Kevin Lisch and am happy they were Billikens and will cherish the memory of their careers. Even so, they underachieved, in my opinion. Well, they didn't live up to my expectations. Perhaps they set the bar too high their first two years because they had to do so much because the remainder of the roster was threadbare or underachieving, and perhaps they just peaked too early.

Also, Scott's diatribe mentions that coaches around the league feared Liddell and Lisch, but he doesn't entertain the possibility that said fact accounts for some of their drop in production. Coaches accounted for the pair so much that they limited what they could get done offensively -- especially once Ian Vouyoukas left and there were no other options. Their teammates were too young this season.