Greskenas leeds Three Rivers National Tourney

[mackim56]

Griskenas 15 points 17 rebound

Valvo 11 rebounds 25 points

as Three Rivers advances 8 teams left in winners bracket at Njcaa {juco} National Tourney. They play #3 ranked Chipola, Fl tomorrow night.

Three Rivers beat Alabama 64-63 on two free throws with 4 seconds to play after blowing a 8 point leed with under two min to play but helt on for the win.

PS Griskenas got those 17 boards going up agaist Alabama 7' footer and another big 6' 8" kid.

[Basketbill]

Good for him. I just hope he commits to SLU Mackim. Do you have any info with this regard?

[mackim56]

I know Brad has been to Poplar Bluff at least twice to see him play, however Missouri, Okla, Ohio and others have also. Mantas G, has gave no indication of where he is thinking right now, wants to just concentract on National Tourney, for now. Like I have said on other Posts -- he is only 6' 7" about 220 lbs and plays the 2-3 for us. He get rebounds on quickness rather than bulk.

[Nate Latsch]

The longer MG waits to commit to a school, more and more BCS Conference schools will start to recruit him.

That's how it works with the high-level JUCO guys.

Once teams are eliminated from the NCAA tournament, and guys start declaring early for the NBA Draft, schools will scramble to fill scholarships with top JUCO talent.

That's one of the problems with trying to recruit JUCO guys — and leftover high school kids — in the spring.

Unless he's got some strong connection to St. Louis U., I doubt MG will be a Billiken.

- Nate

[billiken_roy]

so before it was soderberg couldnt sign the likes of stemmler and shaw because they werent offering early enough. now with mg we wont sign him because we arent a bcs school even though we were first and plenty early.

[slu72]

Maybe a better question is why can't UB and his staff get these guys to verbal or commit before the bigs get a shot at the leftovers?

[crymdg2]

Frank and Bob interviewed MG's coach a couple weeks ago. He said that he has a policy where he doesn't allow the college coaches to talk to his players during the season. They can send mail, come and watch practices/games, but no direct contact is to be made. This is probably why he hasn't made his mind up yet.

[StLouBlue]

I think that is probably common in JUCO in that most JUCO coaches don't want kids to verbal early. They want schools to come to games and see all the players. If the star player verbals early there would probably be a drop off of coaches and other JUCO players wouldn't get noticed.

Other JUCO names that SLU was listed recruiting from rivals a few weeks ago are:

Yima Chia-Kur at Garden City 6'6" 225, last I looked it just listed SLU & TCU

Thiago Cordeiro at Barton 6'9" 220, with a whole list of schools.

D'Lancy Carter at Vincennes 6'9" 260, with Ill St, WSU & SLU. Numbers not very impressive but team went on a nice winning streak when he became starter in mid-season.

[Nate Latsch]

>so before it was soderberg couldnt sign the likes of

>stemmler and shaw because they werent offering early enough.

> now with mg we wont sign him because we arent a bcs school

>even though we were first and plenty early.

Roy,

Wasn't Brad the first to offer Stemler?

What happened there?

Stemler waited and had a good season. Then several other schools started calling, including Marquette and Indiana, and the kid chose IU.

My earlier post was based on a conversation I had months ago with a JUCO assistant coach. I posted that info before on the board, but he talked about how active some of these schools get late in the process because they are scrambling to fill holes on next year's roster.

In this case, with Brad Soderberg recruiting this kid, I think the deck is stacked against him. If BS can't get an early commitment from a JUCO, the wolves will come later on. Then SLU is in the race with bigger and faster horses and is at a disadvantage.

If you look at it from the prespective of the JUCO, they probably want their kids to go to the biggest "name" school possible so they can use that when they are recruiting their next crop of kids.

This is another reason why recruiting JUCOs is difficult.

- Nate

[davidnark]

It is just another example of why Brad needs to target and land 3-star recruits (or ocassional 2-star recruits with big updsides) and the ocassional 4-star in the fall. This is the Xavier, Dayton, St. Joe, and now Carbondale model--it works. If you hold your scholarships until the Spring, you have to compete with the top 25 programs for 3-star recruits and top jucos.

[brianstl]

Dayton!

[davidnark]

Dayton has its problems these days, but I don't believe poor recruiting is the source. They are regularly landing highly-rated guys.

[Taj79]

I think Nate's rationale and thinking are right on.

I also think that roy's torpedo wasn't aimed so much at Nate's comment as it was at all the others who keep claiming that Brad can't get recruits because he doesn't offer early enough. Not necessarily at Nate's specific comment.

I think what this conversation will show, and will continue to show, is that the real reasons kids go to schools and who recruits whom are dynamic, ever-evolving things.

I think all these kids ---- high schoolers or JUCOs ---- do believe that their individual talent is at a high level and should be interpreted by all that way. Real or perceived. So, therefore, they believe that they are best suited at a high-major or BCS school, even if that school does not select them as their first recruiting option. They are out there playing to improve and get what they feel they truly deserve.

The point about school's restocking their shelves due to NBA departures is also interesting. If Kevin Durant doesn't go pro, Rick Barnes can continue along his merry plan. No need to go to plan "B" and replace his stud. Not this year anyway. But if kevin does say bye-bye, enter Plan B. All of a sudden there is a need where there wasn't one and a scholarshi where there wasn't one. Mister Late Bloomer is now public coveted object #1. So now the veritable benefits of the school come into play once more and SLU is extremely lacking.

Even if we do balance the field somewhat and get state-of-the-art facilities, state-of-the-art accomodations, sell-outs crowds, "cakewalk" majors, and the like, the question still remains ... why Saint Louis University over Texas? Indiana? Marquette? Southern Illinois? Gonzaga? Heaven-forbid Duke or North Carolina? LoRo and Washington? We are not BCS so the ability to compete there is null and void. We are not tradition-laden with titles and win totals, nixing another area. We do not produce an unlimited supply of players to the pros so shoot out that option.

Nate is right and roy is right in that his answer is to those that believe Soderberg/Romar/Spoon/Grawer/Ekker/NextGuy are going to change anything by making theri offer earlier than any others.

I have said and I'll say it again, the only way Saint Louis University hits the gold mine mother load with any top notch class is luck .... we did it when Gray/Douglas/Bonner stayed home. We did it when Claggs/Hmark/Winfield/Smith stayed home. We did it when Hughes and company (but mostly Hughes) stayed home. It is probably the only hope we have with the Class of 08 committing to SLU.

In the early 80s it was Douglas, and Gray was a nice follow on. Bonner did come and maybe I'm overconnecting the trio. But Bonner was a raw player at Vashon as I remember and not the highly polished recruit of today. Today's receruiting is also drastically different. early 90's I recall Grawer and Winfield getting that whole AAU team to stay home. Of ocurse, Winfield bolted and Smith was an abject failure but the nucleus and Spoon's hiring led to Waldman, Turner and othes coming into the fold. The late 90's was Hughes and his connection with Derek Thomas plus the little brother situation. That led to other AAU guys like tatum and baniak staying and it led to meeting Heinrich and getting him to join in. If someone wants to tell me that there were individualized and seperate plans that led to all those classes, good luck. Problem was and is that we never sustained any momentum with that stuff -- which confirms, to me, that it was a one-and-done, blue moon kid of decade event. Again, is 08 our year in the 00-decade? You have to hope so.

And if luck is truly it, the luckiest feature in this turn of the clock is Brad's inside angle because of Kramer. If I am right and it is all luck, what more luck is at all possible in all this? We have our head man on the inside. Its now or never for this regime, IMO. If we can our head man now, and luck is truly our only salvation as demonstrated by the facts, would we be offering a major, self-inflicted slash to the programmatic juggler is we cut the coach right here and now?

The "Fire Brad Now" crowd keeps talking about this young up-and-comer we're going to hire like he is going to waltz in and make changes. The hard facts remain about the legacy of this program in the not-too-distant-past as outlined in paragraph 6 above. While I think we can and have been lucky in the past, the real key is not only that class, but the foresight to have the ability to sustain it. Just as its not easy being a Billiken fan, I suspect its not easy being the Billiken coach. I also suspect that Brad is extremely focused on the next 8 months because to me, that is where his future lies. But to think we can just waltz someone new out there and things will change for the better, I'm not in that camp.

[Box and Won]

Their incoming recruiting class is looking very good.

[davidnark]

Taj, that is a very well-written and well-thought out post. I agree with much of it, but I disagree with the assertion that it is primarily "luck." IMO, it has more to do with recruiting philosophy and approach than luck.

Look at Creighton and Carbondale for example. Many believe that both these programs have fewer advantages than SLU in terms of geography and infrastructure. What they do very effectively, however, is almost exclusively evaluate, target, and recruit 3-star and high-potential 2-star players that are not being hounded by the super-big boys, but who will be real contributors for four years. Guys like Tatum, Falkner, Shaw, and most of Creighton's starting five fit this mold. They may settle for a 6'8" center instead of a 6'11" center or a 6'6" power forward instead of a 6'8" power forward, but their recruits are typically above-average athletes and skilled basketball players. A few of these players will be busts, once in a while a player will become a star (see Korver at Creighton), but most of the players will contribute in some meaningful way during their four years. These programs don't spend time with delusions about competing with BCS programs for most recruits--finishing second for a big recruit kills you because backup plans are typically difficult. These schools know their market, and they master it. Once you achieve consistent success with this model, you can up the ante and chase bigger fish as Gonzaga and Xavier have done with great success.

[mackim56]

Some very interesting posts!!!

Someone mentioned that Juco Coachs like to see thier players go to big name Schools, for future recruiting and I think that is a valid point, however this is where SLU might have a advantage with Three Rivers players. He dosn't need that as a recruiting tool. Just the name Three Rivers and Gene Bess is enough in recruiting. {If your going to have to go Juco there are not many better places to go and no better Coach} than Bess and Three Rivers. 37 years and close to 1,030 wins.

Coach Bess really cares about his players education { his player graduation rate is higher than the student population as a whole.}

He is honest with his players and what level he thinks they can play.

It is rare for one of our players to go someplace like North Carolina, Ks, Fl, ect. but they are all over the Valley and other Mid-Major conferences. By the way ALL his players will get offers from somebody and they do every year, that is his biggest recruiting tool. I don't think Griskennas is a MAJOR player but he is a strong Mid- Major, so SLU may have a shot at him. I think Jeff Ford was the last Three Rivers player SLU has had. Anybody remember FORD?

They are same type player but Greskenas is a little bigger.

[moytoy12]

Mackim, thanks for the informative posts.

[Battlecat455]

I do remember Jeff Ford. That kid could jump!

[NashvilleBilliken]

Thanks for keeping us posted on his progress. If you know Greskenas personally, put in a good word for us...we'd love to have him. ;-)

[slufanskip]

Agreed, I'm not sure I care much about the stars though. He needs to sign players that fit his system in the fall. I don't care if he has 1 star or is not listed. With that said if he can make it work by signing the right players in the spring fine, but imo it is much harder and I think it is obvious he hasn't had the best results.

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H Waldman

Official Sponser of the Stemmler and Ahearn could and would have helped club.

[MusicCityBilliken]

Yea, Jeff played on the '88-'89 Team. That was probably one of Grawer's best teams that went to NY and lost in the NIT finals to St John's.

He only played a short period, like 10 or 12 games. Do you know what happen to him?

[davidlee]

Didn't he transfer to SW MO State?

[Billikan]

We appreciate the information. He sounds like he would be perfect for SLU and he would have the opportunity to play with some great players the next two years and there will be plenty of playing time available.

[slu72]

Great players? Billikan, besides TL and KL where and who are these great players? Jeez, if we had great players we'd all be drinking kool aid tonight, because we'd be warming up for Thursday night's game.

[Major Majerus]

D1 hoops - the greatest show on earth.

The recruiting decision came down to Spoon and Grawer, and Grawer won. Jeff was a JUCO AA. Then Grawer told him, after practice started, that Gray - Douglas - Bonner were the scorers and his job was to set them up and defend. Spoon brought his SWMO team to town and beat us - it was at the Xmas break and the last game of the semester. Ford left the team and signed on with Spoon - averaged about 20 pts and 10 rebounds for his last 3 semesters of D-1 eligibility. Grawer really stepped in it with Ford. I think too many coaches are narrow minded about what their players are capable of. Brad has some of that. It has the capacity to short change both the player and the team.