New APR Numbers... IMPROVEMENT!

[Littlebill]

Up to 950 from 923, per BWeix

[Pistol]

Knew this was coming. Great news. I hope this keeps Roy happy.

[ACE]

Up to 950 from 923, per BWeix

Bummer. One less thing to express fake outrage over...

[JettFlight5]

Bummer. One less thing to express fake outrage over...

That only leaves 75,000 other things, amirite?

[kshoe]

Looks like someone had a crystal ball on this one See point #5 in post #16 of this thread.

http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24294#entry363938

Hopefully Taj doesn't complain about my prediction of a 951 when it was really 950 the way he does a 50.7% shooting percentage compared to a 52% quote.

[kmbilliken]

What is the minimal acceptable score before you get sanctioned? How will Jared Drew's transfer effect this?

[billiken_roy]

Looks like someone had a crystal ball on this one See point #5 in post #16 of this thread.

http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24294#entry363938

Hopefully Taj doesn't complain about my prediction of a 951 when it was really 950 the way he does a 50.7% shooting percentage compared to a 52% quote.

boy you sure are proud of yourself. way to go.

btw, yes I am relieved and happy that it has at least improved. no one wants to see their alma mater which we all have grown to be proud of academically at the bottom of the list. now get it back to where it was for years. at the top.

[billiken_roy]

What is the minimal acceptable score before you get sanctioned? How will Jared Drew's transfer effect this?

i believe we wont know that till next year. isnt the 950 score for the season ended 2012?

[bonwich]

Looks like someone had a crystal ball on this one See point #5 in post #16 of this thread.

http://www.billikens.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=24294#entry363938

Hopefully Taj doesn't complain about my prediction of a 951 when it was really 950 the way he does a 50.7% shooting percentage compared to a 52% quote.

50/50 that he will.

[kshoe]

What is the minimal acceptable score before you get sanctioned? How will Jared Drew's transfer effect this?

The minimum APR score to be eligible for the NCAA tournament is going to be 930 next year and thereafter (there is an out for next year alone).

Jared Drew and Keith Carter leaving the program could hurt the APR but it will depend on their grades. We won't know until this time next year whether they were good students or not but the APR penalizes you when somebody leaves depending on their grades. Good grades means no penalty, OK grades means some penalty and bad grades means more penalty.

Here are estimates of what our single year and 4 year average APRs will be under various scenarios for Carter and Drew:

Both Good Students: Single year: 1,000 4-yr avg: 965

One Good, One OK: Single year: 980 4-yr avg: 960

Both OK Students: Single year: 960 4-yr avg: 955

One Good, One Bad: Single year: 960 4-yr avg: 955

One OK, One Bad: Single year: 940 4-yr avg: 950

Both Bad Students: Single year: 920 4-yr avg: 945

The good news is I don't believe Carter was a bad student as he waited until the end of the semester to transfer and was eligible at Valpo.

The other good news is that after this year, the next number to roll off is the 2009-10 season where we had a single year APR of 915. So assuming we don't have any problems in the coming year that totally blow this thing up, we are fine for the APR going forward.

[billiken_roy]

kshoe, how do you know carter was eligible at valpo? couldnt he have missed on a couple of classes but since he has to sit till december of 2013 he has plenty of time to make those up? or are you saying that valpo would have been prohibited from enrolling him if he only had say 2 or 3 passing classes instead of 4?

[JMM28]

kshoe, don't jump the gun on Carter being a good student.

It is nice to finally be out of the potential problem area. Now we just have to make sure we don't have any more Willie Reeds or Brant Thompsons.

[kshoe]

kshoe, how do you know carter was eligible at valpo? couldnt he have missed on a couple of classes but since he has to sit till december of 2013 he has plenty of time to make those up? or are you saying that valpo would have been prohibited from enrolling him if he only had say 2 or 3 passing classes instead of 4?

That is a fair point and I shouldn't have stated it with certainty. That being said, the mere fact that Carter waited until right after the SLU semester ended to transfer indicates to me he was not the type to care less about passing classes. Add in that the first semester classes are often some of the easiest and that there aren't any apparent issues with his transfer at Valpo, and I think it is highly likely Carter won't be qualified as a "bad" student when next year's APR comes out.

[kshoe]

kshoe, don't jump the gun on Carter being a good student.

It is nice to finally be out of the potential problem area. Now we just have to make sure we don't have any more Willie Reeds or Brant Thompsons.

Never said he was a good student, just not a "bad" student. Maybe I'm wrong and he didn't give a sheat about school but if that was the case I think he would have skipped town in early December, instead of a few days after the semester ended.

[Duff Man]

boy you sure are proud of yourself. way to go.

btw, yes I am relieved and happy that it has at least improved. no one wants to see their alma mater which we all have grown to be proud of academically at the bottom of the list. now get it back to where it was for years. at the top.

Single year APR

2008-09: 933

2009-10: 915

2010-11: 945

2011-12: 1000

[kshoe]

Single year APR

2008-09: 933

2009-10: 915

2010-11: 945

2011-12: 1000

Looks like the new APR numbers are out for 2012-2013 season.

https://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/apr2013/609_2013_apr.pdf

We got a 944 for the single season of 2012-13 but the 4 year average went up to 957 because the 933 from 2008-09 rolled off. As discussed earlier in the thread the 944 is a result of Drew and Carter leaving the program (although I can't quite pinpoint how the 944 is calculated given the number of players on the team, etc.).

Assuming we don't get any late spring news of transfers for this coming year, I suspect the 2013-14 season will be a 1,000 APR and next year when the number comes out the 4-yr average will jump into the 970 range.

Long story short, with 930 being the magic number, there is nothing to worry about when it comes to the APR.

p.s. Kansas got its 10th straight year with a perfect 1,000 score proving once again what a fraud the APR rankings really are.

[JettFlight5]

Good to know that SLU is doing better on one of the few rules the NCAA actually enforces.

That 915 going away probably doesn't hurt anyone's feelings.

[Taj79]

Frankly, the APR makes my head swim and was never one of my contention points to the best of my recollection.

Whoever took the under on the predicted call of my 50/50 projection gets the cash!

[MusicCityBilliken]

I don't understand this whole APR thing at all.

If you transfer, that a gig against you? I thought you had to have "C" avg to transfer, so how is that bad? Also a lot of kids transfer.

How does a school like Kentucky get a 1000 when 3/4s of the class leave when Calipari arrived?

Also if a kid transfers out and goes pro, is that a gig against you? Wouldn't Willie fit that category?

Also dropping out may not be all that bad. What does Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerburg all have in common?

[kshoe]

I don't understand this whole APR thing at all.

If you transfer, that a gig against you? I thought you had to have "C" avg to transfer, so how is that bad? Also a lot of kids transfer.

How does a school like Kentucky get a 1000 when 3/4s of the class leave when Calipari arrived?

Also if a kid transfers out and goes pro, is that a gig against you? Wouldn't Willie fit that category?

Also dropping out may not be all that bad. What does Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerburg all have in common?

In its simplest form here is how I would explain it:

- If nobody leaves the program and stays on track to graduate (they don't have to actually graduate) you'll get a 1,000 every year.

- When players leave the program you can start to have problems. If a "good" student leaves the program, you won't be penalized. If a "mediocre" student leaves you get a small deduction. If a "bad" student leaves you get a larger deduction. The definition of good/mediocre/bad is based on GPA, although its difficult pinpointing exactly where the cutoffs are on each designation.

- If you have 2 or more bad students leave the program in a given year, you'll be below the 930 cutoff. But the 930 cutoff is a 4 year average so it would have to happen for a few years in a row before you would get punished.

Kshoe's soapbox on the APR:

- It's a fraudulent measure of academic success that has significant unintended consequences and can be easily manipulated by schools that are willing to bend the rules for their athletic programs.

- For example, because GPA is used to determine a good/mediocre/bad student, schools are incredibly incentivized to give good grades to all of their athletes and to place them in easy programs. These incentives have always existed at athletic factories but were limited to keeping star QB or linebacker or center eligible and often consisted of giving a poor student a D when he deserved an F or a C- when he deserved a D. Now, its more systematic as students are likely placed in the easiest classes possible and given completely fraudulent grades that will keep them in the "good" student category. Thus, when basketball player XYZ leaves Kansas early he won't hurt their APR and they can keep a 10-yr track record of perfect 1,000 scores.

- Meanwhile a school like SLU has some semblance of integrity with their student athletes (that isn't to suggest we are perfect or don't give athletes help along the way) will actually have the guts to give guys like Keith Carter, Willie Reed or Jared Drew the grades they deserve. Don't forget, the reason Willie ended up leaving was he flunked out of SLU. When they leave the program, our APR is hurt.

- Then the worst thing about it is the NCAA and the complicit media report these numbers and have the gall to suggest that higher numbers suggest higher academic success and integrity. If anybody honestly believes that KU has more academic integrity than SLU then I have a bridge to sell you.

[MusicCityBilliken]

In its simplest form here is how I would explain it:

- If nobody leaves the program and stays on track to graduate (they don't have to actually graduate) you'll get a 1,000 every year.

- When players leave the program you can start to have problems. If a "good" student leaves the program, you won't be penalized. If a "mediocre" student leaves you get a small deduction. If a "bad" student leaves you get a larger deduction. The definition of good/mediocre/bad is based on GPA, although its difficult pinpointing exactly where the cutoffs are on each designation.

- If you have 2 or more bad students leave the program in a given year, you'll be below the 930 cutoff. But the 930 cutoff is a 4 year average so it would have to happen for a few years in a row before you would get punished.

Kshoe's soapbox on the APR:

- It's a fraudulent measure of academic success that has significant unintended consequences and can be easily manipulated by schools that are willing to bend the rules for their athletic programs.

- For example, because GPA is used to determine a good/mediocre/bad student, schools are incredibly incentivized to give good grades to all of their athletes and to place them in easy programs. These incentives have always existed at athletic factories but were limited to keeping star QB or linebacker or center eligible and often consisted of giving a poor student a D when he deserved an F or a C- when he deserved a D. Now, its more systematic as students are likely placed in the easiest classes possible and given completely fraudulent grades that will keep them in the "good" student category. Thus, when basketball player XYZ leaves Kansas early he won't hurt their APR and they can keep a 10-yr track record of perfect 1,000 scores.

- Meanwhile a school like SLU has some semblance of integrity with their student athletes (that isn't to suggest we are perfect or don't give athletes help along the way) will actually have the guts to give guys like Keith Carter, Willie Reed or Jared Drew the grades they deserve. Don't forget, the reason Willie ended up leaving was he flunked out of SLU. When they leave the program, our APR is hurt.

- Then the worst thing about it is the NCAA and the complicit media report these numbers and have the gall to suggest that higher numbers suggest higher academic success and integrity. If anybody honestly believes that KU has more academic integrity than SLU then I have a bridge to sell you.

Thanks K.

[cheeseman]

I don't understand this whole APR thing at all.

If you transfer, that a gig against you? I thought you had to have "C" avg to transfer, so how is that bad? Also a lot of kids transfer.

How does a school like Kentucky get a 1000 when 3/4s of the class leave when Calipari arrived?

Also if a kid transfers out and goes pro, is that a gig against you? Wouldn't Willie fit that category?

Also dropping out may not be all that bad. What does Bill Gates, Steve Jobs and Mark Zuckerburg all have in common?

Only 1 and dones do not count against you. I would assume that KY took a hit when all those players transfered.

[ACE]

In its simplest form here is how I would explain it:

- If nobody leaves the program and stays on track to graduate (they don't have to actually graduate) you'll get a 1,000 every year.

- When players leave the program you can start to have problems. If a "good" student leaves the program, you won't be penalized. If a "mediocre" student leaves you get a small deduction. If a "bad" student leaves you get a larger deduction. The definition of good/mediocre/bad is based on GPA, although its difficult pinpointing exactly where the cutoffs are on each designation.

- If you have 2 or more bad students leave the program in a given year, you'll be below the 930 cutoff. But the 930 cutoff is a 4 year average so it would have to happen for a few years in a row before you would get punished.

Kshoe's soapbox on the APR:

- It's a fraudulent measure of academic success that has significant unintended consequences and can be easily manipulated by schools that are willing to bend the rules for their athletic programs.

- For example, because GPA is used to determine a good/mediocre/bad student, schools are incredibly incentivized to give good grades to all of their athletes and to place them in easy programs. These incentives have always existed at athletic factories but were limited to keeping star QB or linebacker or center eligible and often consisted of giving a poor student a D when he deserved an F or a C- when he deserved a D. Now, its more systematic as students are likely placed in the easiest classes possible and given completely fraudulent grades that will keep them in the "good" student category. Thus, when basketball player XYZ leaves Kansas early he won't hurt their APR and they can keep a 10-yr track record of perfect 1,000 scores.

- Meanwhile a school like SLU has some semblance of integrity with their student athletes (that isn't to suggest we are perfect or don't give athletes help along the way) will actually have the guts to give guys like Keith Carter, Willie Reed or Jared Drew the grades they deserve. Don't forget, the reason Willie ended up leaving was he flunked out of SLU. When they leave the program, our APR is hurt.

- Then the worst thing about it is the NCAA and the complicit media report these numbers and have the gall to suggest that higher numbers suggest higher academic success and integrity. If anybody honestly believes that KU has more academic integrity than SLU then I have a bridge to sell you.

+1 You nailed. It's not really about trying to educate kids, it's about keeping up appearances and keeping them eligible.

As it relates to SLU, the chicken little routine about the apr was primarily generated by one person who had an anti-RM agenda. I think most people recognized that we would be fine with the APR and that it would improve over time.

[kshoe]

This is a bit off topic but anyone that has read this thread should be able to see the hypocrisy of the APR calculation. Well I saw this story about UNC today that basically talks about the blatant academic cheating that was going on at UNC in the mid 2000s.

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/11036924/former-north-carolina-basketball-star-rashad-mccants-says-took-sham-classes

Curiosity made me wonder what the APR was for UNC basketball while this was going on. According to the NCAA, UNC average an extremely good APR between 989 and 995 for the years of 2004 - 2009. that is a near perfect APR!

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/newmedia/public/rates/index5.html

So obviously, UNC was achieving these extremely high APR numbers by cheating (like many schools do). But the story doesn't just end there. In 2011, UNC had to vacate a bunch of wins in their football program as the lid was blown off of their sham academic classes. Here is the article dating from 2011:

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/6993024/north-carolina-tar-heels-vacate-2008-2009-wins-ahead-hearing

So its probably safe to assume that from 2011 on, UNC has felt the need to clean up their act academically (fewer sham classes and fake grades). So let's see what the single year APR numbers are since 2011 for their basketball team:

2011: 909

2012: 959

2013: 917

UNC is actually at risk of being barred from the NCAA tournament in a couple years if the just completed 2013-14 single year APR (which won't be know until next spring) were to come in under 930. So in a period when almost all schools APR is going up because the NCAA places such an emphasis on it, UNC's has been dropping like a rock.

It simply goes to show that when schools are forced to make their athletes go to real classes and can no longer give them sham grades, the APR will most likely go down. And yet, the NCAA continues to pimp the APR as this wonderful measure of academic progress and integrity!

[Cowboy]

-will their APR or sanctions history be factored in that top 100 coaches ranking from the other thread??