My Arena Thought--Good Things Come in Small Packages

[davidnark]

We are making a big mistake with this arena design: it is too damn big!

Why do we need 12,500 seats? Duke has about 8,000 or so. Gonaza's new place seats around 6,000. I don't care what attendance is announced at our games; we are lucky if there are 5,000 people in the stands.

Why not do it small? Let's create atmosphere, demand, and excitement! The smaller, the more collegiate, the louder, and the bigger home court advantage!

Even in a 8,000 seat arena there will be plenty of good seats for the season ticket holders, students, and the band. Make the Johhny-come-latelys fight for their seat when we become a "hot" ticket.

I don't want to hear some lame NCAA-event requirement for 12,500 seatss. Is the NCAA really going to host men's tourney games at SLU when the Savvis Center and Dome are both available with greater capacities and pedestrian access to over 7,500 hotel rooms?

If we cut the size in half, we could probably knock $20 million or so off the price tag.

Who is with me?

[SLU_Nick]

I agree with that commment. I actually thought it was going to be smaller. Guess not. How big is the Savvis Center?

Either way we will draw more student turn out because they wont have to ride the bus 15 mins both ways. I really wanted to pack the place though and 12,500 is a big place to pack.

There is no turning back now though right?

[SLUBandTBone]

If I recall correctly the Savvis seats about 26,000 and that's a whole lot of folks. But I don't think a 12,500 stadium would be too big. Even with this year's crummy team we managed to draw 8,500 to the game against Charlotte on a Saturday night. 8,500 people look like a whole lot more in a 12.5K stadium than they do in a 26K person cave. It would be more fun though, I think, to have about a 9,000 person stadium and really get the place rockin' and a homecourt advantage here in the next couple of years.

[slufanskip]

I beleive Savvis holds 22k for basketball. You also have to think of the increased revenue from a 12K arena when we get good enough to sell it out. I would like to see us stay at at least 10K

Official Billikens.com sponsor of H. Waldman

[Taj79]

I've never really argued size as much as I've argued for just having a place of our own. If the NCAA did indeed come to town, it would most likely want the Savvis for a POD set up and of course you have to play the finals in a Dome. Mo' money, mo' money, mo' money .....

I have long said that 8K in a 9K arena makes its 88% full whereas 8K in a 22K seat arena makes it 63% empty. Atmosphere in a masoleum doesn't seem to matter, does it? Come to think of it, what kind of atmosphere can one really make in a masoleum to begin with? And if we had one of those tremendous years and had Kentucky or Duke coming to town, Savvis would probably jump at the chance to make us an offer. Then we hold the cards more than they do.

Duke has a smallish arena. So too does Charlotte. Villanova built a smaller one .. one much smaller than their similar Philly situation with the Wachovia Center. Cintas at Xavier. The Apollo at Temple. GeeDub has a small on-campus center, I think the Smith Center. I think the biggest arena in the entire A10 is Dayton's at a little over 13K. And frankly, what else is there to do in Dayton in the dead of winter? St. Louis has more options for your disposal entertainment dollar.

I firmly believe that playing in your own place adds to your ability to win games. In this case, to me, size does not matter.

[slu72]

I would agree. But am sure everyone is thinking of Spoonball days when attendance was 17-18k. Will we ever get back there and if we do will we maintain it? Nothing brings in fans like winning and exciting basketball. I think the logic here should be we need something better than Savis for atmosphere, we need something students can easily get to, we need something that will not be a major drain on the operating budget. I think a very nice...comfortable...with some luxury boxes for the fat cats...place that seats 9,500 would be a good compromise. If we get to the level we want, i.e. a top 25 consistently, and we can get BIG EVENT games like a UNC, KY, Mizzery or Ill we can always go to the Savis for the big payday.

[kshoe]

For instance this year the Midwest Regional (rounds 3 and 4) are being held in Chicago, but not at the 20,000+ United Center but rather at the 10,000 or so All-State Arena. I agree the chances of the Bill's ever hosting are very small but sometimes I really don't get the NCAA.

[MusicCityBilliken]

I think it was the year after Hughes, around Christmas, I went to the Bills vs Kansas game. That game had about 22,500 in attendance. I believe I read in the paper the next day that this game was the biggest crowd for basketball in the Savis.

BTW, earlier that same week I saw the Bills vs Charlotte. That game drew about 16,500.

So we have a history for drawing large crowds. Also, I think they are hoping to have this as a revenue generator with maybe indoor soccer, arena football, concerts, circus, etc.. Therefore, I would recommend at least having a 12,000 capacity arena.

[Box and Won]

That's what I've been saying all along - make the place smaller. We may draw 15,000+ in the good years, but even with that many fans in the house, was the atmosphere really that great? With the exception of some of the bigger games, I would say no. I would rather a smaller facility with the right fans (the fans who really care about the team) in attendance.

We're a college basketball program - it's not our responsibility to provide enough seats so that everyone in the St. Louis area can get tickets whenever they want. Screw the bandwagon folks.

We'll never get an NCAA event at our new arena, I just don't understand that thinking.

If we were to build the arena with around 8,000 seats, I would guess that it could be designed so that it has no upper deck, and that has got to be a major cost saving.

[willie]

At the Tip-Off meeting last night Cheryl said the new arena would seat 13,000 with 70% of those seats being in the lower bowl. The pitch of the seats would be steeper than Savis putting the seats closer to the floor. Having 9,000 seats in the lower bowl closer to the floor sounds very good to me. Our current season ticket base would just about fill that especially if you get more students. With 4000 upper deck seats available it leaves room to grow your program.

[BillikenButch]

It'll cut off another $20 million. And come on there are really only 4000 of the "right" fans out there anyway.

The size of the arena (12K v 8K) will initially and perhaps ultimately have little to do with the atmosphere of the games. There is no atmosphere because there is no baketball tradition. There are no cheers, no alma mater, no standing until first basket, there is no collective identity of and from the fans.

Absent these things, the athletic department relies on cheap gimmicks, a personality as the PA announcer, and (thankfully) a great band to entertain the audience during stoppages in play. As a rule of thumb, I consider the more often a team uses the jumbo-tron to engage fans, the poorer the tradition. We use it a lot.

It is easy and rather cheap to throw jabs at our athletic program. So I offer one suggestion (I'm thinking of others)

Perhaps the BlueCrew and the Band can play/sing/scream some kind of fight song for the team. Do it the same time every game (maybe even twice!) and build toward getting the general audience to join in.

Any other thoughts on ways to build atmosphere? If your response is "winning will build atmosphere" I respectfully suggest that is incorrect because we have had a winning program before and any energy or tradition from then has long since disappeared. Winning will get people in the seats and will create energy during an individual game, but atmosphere/tradition creates energy whether we win or lose.

[Billiken Rich]

I think our fight song has become "when the saints go marching in" Few really sing it or are particularly moved by it though. When the Bills win the fans will come and cheer.

[Taj79]

All-State Arena ... formerly the Rosemont Horizon ... holds 18,500 for basketball ..... and that's another venue that has no atmosphere for the college game as far as I'm concerned.

I believe the NCAA's rules for POD play are that the arena must have a MINIMUM holding of 12,500 .... that was discussed a couple of years ago when the Bills went to Cleveland to play Utah after the Miracle in Memphis. They did not play at the Richfield Coliseum or the Gund (whichever was there at that time) but rather went to the new Cleveland State place. And that had just enough to meet the NCAA's new minimum.

Just recently, the NCAA has rode a move of all Final Fours to domes ... a while back, there was a provision that the fourth year of every four year rotation required that the Final be played in a basketball-specific arena. I don't know if that still holds or if that has passed as well.

The Doc got tickets to this year's final four in St. Loo ... he got them through the NCAA lottery .... He has two seats, section 418, Row MM ..... at the price of $52.00 per seat per session. I looked it up ... 418 is upper level behind the basket ,, don't know how rows there are but MM has got to be near the end. He will need binoculars just to find his binoculars. There will be no rating the dance teams in this one. Frankly, give me the TV in the comfort of my own home.

[stchuckbilliken]

Typical St. Louis, thinking small time.

[Taj79]

Atmosphere and winning go hand in hand in my book .... you create a home-court advantage and the fans add to that. A smaller venue means a smaller crowd can seem like a large one. "Defend this House." You've seen the commercials. Less space to fill means less noise is required to get the effect you need. Noise can lead to intimidation and the other team screwing up. Victories can be stolen at a greater rate. More victories and more atmosphere lead to better crowds and better noise and the thing feeds upon itself. And with 8k in the Savvis each night, 4K is a ridiculous figure to begin with. Its obsolete by the time its up ... kind of like another lane on I-270.

I know bonwich has said that its a financial drain and you need other events in there to make it profitable. Maybe so but I am not in favor or competing with Savvis or Family Arena or other venues for concerts and truck pulls and the bigger shows. A smaller venue has uses .... maybe an Arena Football team can't fill 22K seats and wants smaller. But secondary events should be just that .. secondary and not crucial because the bottom line is the Billikens and no one else.

As for a "fight song," screw it. The Dookies don't sing. Maryland built their new place with a dramatic rise in the student section .. which is right behind the second half basket for the visiting team. Did you see that on Saturday night? How about the orange clad crowd in Champaign? The white shirts and gold shirts at Michigan State and Michigan. Heck, our pep band is enough of a riler for me. And last year's edition of the Baby Blues was the best I've ever seen. Some of those ladies made our All Tournament team.

Savvis is a tomb. It sucks a portion of our program's life blood away every time we play there. And with a patient on life-support right now, losing even one dropper of blood is too, too precious for me.

[Billiken Rich]

I agree. Our season ticket base not too long ago was around 12000 if I remember correctly. I for one do not want to be the last man in on a 5000 seat arena, hitting my head against the ceiling trying to see around the freaking shot clock.

If we can't do this right thwen delay it till we can (which would seem to be the course we are on.)

Would the 5000 seat arena need a practise floor????????

[kwyjibo]

Duke's home court advantage is ranked at 248 this year. Factually speaking, Duke is a good team (i.e., they win at home because they are good not because Cameron) and they rarely enjoy a special home court advantage in a competitive sense. In fact, when big name analysts name the "biggest HCA" they are actually naming the places that have the most "excitement" in their eyes--this has nothing to do with an actual competitive advantage.

Utah Valley State has had the biggest home court advantage over the last two years in D-1. UVS Wolverines have a nice modest facility but they draw less than 1000 (I do not how "amped" those 1000 are but I doubt it is something special as there are 8000 seats).

Historically, SLU has had a pretty consistent "above average" home court advantage over the last ten years. This year they have not (they are currently ranked 238). Only time will tell if this is anomaly or a new trend. While I am open to the possibility that a new arena can increase HCA (Missouri, for example, is experiencing a top 20 HCA this year) but their appears to little to no evidence that that is true. HCA appears to be pretty consistent across facilities and atmosphere; not building or atmosphere specific.

The problem is people confuse the thrill of their own experience (or more accurately, their perception of others thrills) with competitive advantage. I would agree that an exciting atmosphere has many non-competitive benefits. But even if your goal is to produce a more exciting atmosphere, there are a whole host of promotional activities that do not cost tens of millions of dollars. If excitement is your goal, arenas are just not cost effective.

[Billiken Rich]

Not that I disagree with you, but home court advantage would seem to be a tough thing to accurately measure. The experience and attitudes of the fans are probably the more important anyway. Feeling good about and spending money on Billiken basketball is what we are all looking for.

[bonwich]

Where are your numbers coming from, kwyjibo, and how do these people define "HCA"?

[BillikenButch]

8000 is as ridiculous as 4000.

The basis of your assumption is that we are going to have a consistent winning team that is going to generate it's own noise. First of all, we have never had that kind of program. I sure hope we do in the future. In the event we do, why do we want to be limited to a smaller arena? If our success depends on noise and noise alone, raise the noise level by raising the number of patrons. Adding more seats that are filled does not mean that the noise density is necessarily diminshed.

You mention Maryland and Illinois. We can hold out hope, but I see no reason to expect that we will consistently play at the level of the top athletic state universities that have departmental budgets supplimented by football programs. We have too many steps to take to consider our program near that level.

Unitl we can prove that we are the class of programs like Marquette, DePaul, Xavier, and Dayton, comparisions with the Terps and Illini are silly exercises.

[cheeseman]

It about revenue - when the team gets better, they will be able to sell the tickets and the venue needs to be big enough to attract outside uses. 13,000 is just right. Anything smaller will have them and us regretting it later.

[kwyjibo]

Historically, I have used Ken Massey for his Home Court Advantage calculations (which are just a subset of his calculation of his rankings). This year he has a HCA ranking across ALL basketball divisions and is not ranking just D-1 (although you could figure it out).

http://www.masseyratings.com/rate/cb-w.htm

Out of expedience I used Mike Greenfield's ratings system earlier today (which, like Massey, calculates HCA as a byproduct of his "power ratings"). I have been following Massey's ratings for many years and generally like his methods better but Greenfield's ratings make the same point.

http://teamrankings.com/ncb/17powerratings.php3

If you follow these rankings for many years as I have you will see that seldom do "the usual suspects" (except maybe Wisconsin) get ranked as having a top HCA. In fact, there is more randomness than clear advantage. UVS stands out that it was in the top 10 two years in a row.

I am aware that the quest to bring reason to the debate on arenas is quixotic but I actually find it quite interesting. Years ago, some statisticians plowed through about 10 seasons of college data in an attempt to explain what the HCA actually was. It turns out that none of the usual game statistics were different home and away; except one--number of possessions. Number of possessions (absent any shooting, rebounding, or turnover difference) is controlled by the officials--I think that is where the home court advantage comes from. But it would be interesting to see more recent data to see if this is still true.

[kshoe]

but when they can be used to prove that Duke does not have a special home court advantage it seems to defy reason.

[Taj79]

My question exactly ... because if you're telling me that the lower number is better or even the higher number is better ... and there are ONLY 10 slots separating us from Cameron ... you .... or the originators of this ranking system .... are way off whack!

I'm reminded of game in the early 80's at Cameron .... Dook versus the Bills of Monroe Douglas ... it was so bad that over halfway through the first half, the Dookies were bouncing and chanting "shutout" we were that bad. Yeah ... seen that at Savvis tons of times. Not that 8,000 chanting lunatics affected the Bills play at that point .....

[kwyjibo]

It isn't defying reason. Loud boisterous crowds get BOTH teams fired up. I have heard players say that hundreds of times. (Just the other day I saw several players on ESPN say that they feel MORE comfortable on the road when lots of people are yelling at them than when home crowds "quiet" for them). My high school used to get real quiet for the opponents free throws and it did seem to be more effective than a lot of yelling.

This is not proof of much but I watch college games once in a while with a Duke grad and he agrees with me--he thinks Cameron is a disadvantage because visiting teams "get up" for the game.

A dull atmosphere tends to give an advantage to the team that is more internally motivated (which, on average, would be the home team who is playing in front of family, friends, lovers, etc.).

If the HCA is really a function of the refs (which I do not think has actually been proven but I suspect is in the right direction) it is interesting that they are not motivated by loud crowds. I really do not know what the answer is, because there is a real home court advantage of 3-4 points; it is just that there is little variability amongst teams, crowds, and arenas. A tomb has just as much HCA as a pit.