cheeseman Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 There's no crying in D1 hoops. Although, they could stay on as walkons. You are not being realistic. Do you really want to tell a senior that he is no longer on schollie and has to pay his own tuition to graduate but you can not only pay your own way but you can be practice fodder now. I can hear all the coaches of teams that are recruiting the same h.s. player - you don't wan to go to SLU they will kick you to the curb the moment they decide you are not needed. Think about how this plays out with the recruit's parents - don't send your kid to SLU they may say that they will watch out for your son but really they don't give a damn about him look at what they did to those seniors. If the kid was not going to classes or had violated rules or whatever but to simply say so long and don't let the door hit your butt on the way out is not what is going to happen. The decision has to be made now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 The answer to this polemic as to what to do with underperforming seniors is entirely dependent upon the Coach. If Ford decides they will go they will go. Ford will set the environment of the basketball division, he can change it form being a benign and supporting environment putting a lot of importance in graduating kids academically, or he may do the opposite. It is up to him, and of course the administration. We will see what happens. I know it is wonderful to have really nice people committing to the program, but so far two of them will redshirt. That means we will have a hole in the playing lineup for next season, 3 going out, two coming in. We may have to eliminate someone as is, but certainly the team will remain largely as is unless we get an additional highly ranked comittment for 2016. Now, this does not mean we have to literally put these kids on the street without a diploma in their senior year, there are ways to provide funding for academic purposes even in the event the athletic scholarship is terminated. The administration will, of course, have to approve any such course of action. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 The answer to this polemic as to what to do with underperforming seniors is entirely dependent upon the Coach. If Ford decides they will go they will go. Ford will set the environment of the basketball division, he can change it form being a benign and supporting environment putting a lot of importance in graduating kids academically, or he may do the opposite. It is up to him, and of course the administration. We will see what happens. I know it is wonderful to have really nice people committing to the program, but so far two of them will redshirt. That means we will have a hole in the playing lineup for next season, 3 going out, two coming in. We may have to eliminate someone as is, but certainly the team will remain largely as is unless we get an additional highly ranked comittment for 2016. Now, this does not mean we have to literally put these kids on the street without a diploma in their senior year, there are ways to provide funding for academic purposes even in the event the athletic scholarship is terminated. The administration will, of course, have to approve any such course of action. actually unless the players in question fall in line with normal procedures academically for a full ride scholarship of a non athletic student, you are completely wrong. the ncaa will consider their "assistance" as an athletic scholarship and not allow the replacement scholarships. as far as i know jolly is not presidential scholarship material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Old guy Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 So, I am wrong, I do not know the NCAA rules other than in a very superficial manner. And yes, Jolly is not presidential scholarship material. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Aren't you being a bit hard - if they do not leave this year as "juniors to be" why would Ford want the rap of cutting seniors in their last year. No, if they are going to leave for whatever the reason it has to be now or else they will be here for their full 4 years. I guess we should be thankful that JC did not red shirt anybody except for injury. I don't know how Gilman feels about riding the pine, but Jolly seems perfectly content w/being extra baggage. It does seem he had a very rocky relationship w/Crews and there was a stretch where his minutes evaporated. I think most of us thought he'd have joined Malik and Miles on the transfer train in order to get a shot at actually playing. I may be totally off base, but it seems that is not a top priority for him at SLU. So, if he's not working at competing for minutes, you couldn't fault a coach for giving him his walking papers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 actually unless the players in question fall in line with normal procedures academically for a full ride scholarship of a non athletic student, you are completely wrong. the ncaa will consider their "assistance" as an athletic scholarship and not allow the replacement scholarships. as far as i know jolly is not presidential scholarship material. You are correct Roy. If you provide anything financially or equivalent to it you will be on the fast track for an NCAA investigation and sanctions - nobody needs that. My earlier point was that if you start dumping seniors then you will rue the day on the recruiting trail. Not worth it - just live with their last year and chalk it up to life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I don't know how Gilman feels about riding the pine, but Jolly seems perfectly content w/being extra baggage. It does seem he had a very rocky relationship w/Crews and there was a stretch where his minutes evaporated. I think most of us thought he'd have joined Malik and Miles on the transfer train in order to get a shot at actually playing. I may be totally off base, but it seems that is not a top priority for him at SLU. So, if he's not working at competing for minutes, you couldn't fault a coach for giving him his walking papers. He apparently has a girlfriend at SLU - have you forgot what it was like to be 20 and have a piece of tail waiting for you everyday - that is a strong lure. He may be with OK just playing a few minutes now and then but lets not forget that we are talking about $40K - I may even be light on this amount - nobody walks away from that unless they are just really unhappy. Like I have said before if Ford is going to force somebody out he has to do it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 He apparently has a girlfriend at SLU - have you forgot what it was like to be 20 and have a piece of tail waiting for you everyday - that is a strong lure. He may be with OK just playing a few minutes now and then but lets not forget that we are talking about $40K - I may even be light on this amount - nobody walks away from that unless they are just really unhappy. Like I have said before if Ford is going to force somebody out he has to do it now. SIUE, UMSL, Lindenwood and Harris-Stowe are all close by if he wants to continue to play basketball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I'm not as 100% confident as Cheese and Roy that if a player has his athletic scholarship revoked but then the school finds a way to get him financial aid so that he can continue his education, that it is a problem with the NCAA. You absolutely can't do that if you want the kid to keep playing as that would be avoiding scholarship limitations, but if you just want to keep the kid in school it shouldn't be a problem. For example, when Femi John left the team due to injury he was able to stay in school and presumably had some financial aid support from SLU. In fact, I think he was retained as a manager and given financial aid through that program. Similarly, when college football players get hurt and teams pull their scholarship, does the NCAA frown upon the school continuing to pay for them to remain in school? Seems like it would go against the mission statement of the organization. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HoosierPal Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I'm not as 100% confident as Cheese and Roy that if a player has his athletic scholarship revoked but then the school finds a way to get him financial aid so that he can continue his education, that it is a problem with the NCAA. You absolutely can't do that if you want the kid to keep playing as that would be avoiding scholarship limitations, but if you just want to keep the kid in school it shouldn't be a problem. For example, when Femi John left the team due to injury he was able to stay in school and presumably had some financial aid support from SLU. In fact, I think he was retained as a manager and given financial aid through that program. Similarly, when college football players get hurt and teams pull their scholarship, does the NCAA frown upon the school continuing to pay for them to remain in school? Seems like it would go against the mission statement of the organization. Creighton did this a few years ago with McDermott. He gave up his scholarship his senior year so that Gibbs could have a 5th year. McDermott was officially a 'walk on' his senior year, but with his dad coaching you never know if he paid one cent for his senior year or paid full tuition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MusicCityBilliken Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Creighton did this a few years ago with McDermott. He gave up his scholarship his senior year so that Gibbs could have a 5th year. McDermott was officially a 'walk on' his senior year, but with his dad coaching you never know if he paid one cent for his senior year or paid full tuition. I was talking to my MD at Emory Univ. recently, I asked if she ever considered moving on. She said no way, I have 3 daughters and one of the perks on being on the med school faculty is free tuition for the off spring. At Emory that's a considerable amount. Wonder if that was the same at Creighton? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Creighton did this a few years ago with McDermott. He gave up his scholarship his senior year so that Gibbs could have a 5th year. McDermott was officially a 'walk on' his senior year, but with his dad coaching you never know if he paid one cent for his senior year or paid full tuition. That's not what I was talking about. I'm sure Doug McD paid for his tuition. What I am talking about is if a player leaves the team can the school still help him out with finances? We've done if before for injured players, the only question I'd have is whether you have to "prove" an injury in order to be able to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheeseman Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I'm not as 100% confident as Cheese and Roy that if a player has his athletic scholarship revoked but then the school finds a way to get him financial aid so that he can continue his education, that it is a problem with the NCAA. You absolutely can't do that if you want the kid to keep playing as that would be avoiding scholarship limitations, but if you just want to keep the kid in school it shouldn't be a problem. For example, when Femi John left the team due to injury he was able to stay in school and presumably had some financial aid support from SLU. In fact, I think he was retained as a manager and given financial aid through that program. Similarly, when college football players get hurt and teams pull their scholarship, does the NCAA frown upon the school continuing to pay for them to remain in school? Seems like it would go against the mission statement of the organization. Femi I believed quit playing - kind of retired so to speak due to injuries. He had doctors to verify that he could not play again. I know he went to UMSL and played one year once he graduated. I would hate to be defending that plan with the NCAA - too much could go wrong. I know McDermott did it for his kid but I think the kid had already graduated - not 100% sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billiken_roy Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 I'm not as 100% confident as Cheese and Roy that if a player has his athletic scholarship revoked but then the school finds a way to get him financial aid so that he can continue his education, that it is a problem with the NCAA. You absolutely can't do that if you want the kid to keep playing as that would be avoiding scholarship limitations, but if you just want to keep the kid in school it shouldn't be a problem. For example, when Femi John left the team due to injury he was able to stay in school and presumably had some financial aid support from SLU. In fact, I think he was retained as a manager and given financial aid through that program. Similarly, when college football players get hurt and teams pull their scholarship, does the NCAA frown upon the school continuing to pay for them to remain in school? Seems like it would go against the mission statement of the organization. Femi John had 100% of school, room and board books paid? Not loans. Scholarship. If not we aren't talking apples to apples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kshoe Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Femi John had 100% of school, room and board books paid? Not loans. Scholarship. If not we aren't talking apples to apples. Femi has not graced me with details of his financial situation but I didn't realize 100% payment was the only acceptable level here. When I go back to the original post that you responded to I see a poster say that basically we don't have to kick them to the street and can provide them with some assistance. I agree with that. If there is a senior that has no chance of contributing on the court to SLU and he is told that his scholarship is being pulled but we've found ways to get him 70% of the funds so he can finish his degree then I won't feel bad for the kid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clock_Tower Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Femi has not graced me with details of his financial situation but I didn't realize 100% payment was the only acceptable level here. When I go back to the original post that you responded to I see a poster say that basically we don't have to kick them to the street and can provide them with some assistance. I agree with that. If there is a senior that has no chance of contributing on the court to SLU and he is told that his scholarship is being pulled but we've found ways to get him 70% of the funds so he can finish his degree then I won't feel bad for the kid. +1 Believe that the NCAA only has jurisdiction over players who still have eligibility and/or want to protect eligibility. Our two (2) new transfers, of course, are under NCAA jurisdiction even though they will not play this upcoming season. For a guy who is no longer looking to be eligible, whether due to injury or loss of interest, then the NCAA would not apply. For instance, if Larry Hughes wants to take a business class, SLU can elect to not charge him a penny. In fact, many guys who leave early for the NBA, etc. are welcomed back by their colleges later to finish their degrees at no charge. Hard to imagine an NBA, or former NBA guy, wanting to live in the college dorms and receive a meal plan. Now, team meals and access to the players might be different if the NCAA is worried about someone attempting to be an unofficial coach as opposed to player/walk on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgeldmacher Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Bringing in these transfers is going to put us in a great situation in a few years. We all seem hopeful for a turnaround in year two when these guys start playing. Assuming we do right the ship in a big way that year, this will coincide with Ford being able to give out four scholarships to kids coming in the following year. The year after that, he'll have five available. The timing will be perfect for him to fully showcase is recruiting chops for a program in the rise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 He apparently has a girlfriend at SLU - have you forgot what it was like to be 20 and have a piece of tail waiting for you everyday - that is a strong lure. He may be with OK just playing a few minutes now and then but lets not forget that we are talking about $40K - I may even be light on this amount - nobody walks away from that unless they are just really unhappy. Like I have said before if Ford is going to force somebody out he has to do it now. Cheese I forgot what I had for breakfast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Back to Henriquez, according to Stu's tweet he had offers from both Pitt and TCU. I'll trust Stallings and Dixon's eye for talent. A good one it looks like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Henriquez is the most talented player to commit to the program in 5 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RiseAndGrind Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Ash was supposed to be super talented as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Ash was supposed to be super talented as well Henriquez is more talented than Ash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Back to Henriquez, according to Stu's tweet he had offers from both Pitt and TCU. I'll trust Stallings and Dixon's eye for talent. A good one it looks like. I think Foreman was also an excellent addition, but appeared to be an inevitable with the hiring of Macon, but this recruiting victory is VERY impressive. There was a lot of competition. Pleasantly surprised that we won it so quickly. Henriquez had just come from visiting both of TCU and Pitt and had a visit planned to Utah before committing to us. Dixon has already made a recruiting splash at TCU and nice to beat Stallings. Ford seems to have strong connections in Florida. Not sure if this was all him or one of the assistants played a role. Ford also had a history of recruiting players from Louisiana while at Oklahoma State, so that may have opened some doors in landing JJ. And Foreman was obviously the result of the East coast recruiting strategy. Early on Ford is showing that he can cast a pretty wide net. Ford may be able to open some doors in the south while the assistants work big cities from the East Coast to Chicago. So far, very promising. Let's not stop now, let's get Bess for fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACE Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Ash was supposed to be super talented as well I think Ash was pretty talented... certainly not a superstar good enough to elevate a team by himself, but would have fit in very nicely on the teams with DE, Jordair & co. Henriquez has produced a lot more in his first two years than Ash did, who played sparingly. Even then, Ash increased his numbers after transferring to SLU. Look at some of the Henriquez videos, including the 22-point game as a freshman at SMU. It's ok to allow yourself to get a little excited. No one or two players is going to be able to do it by themselves. It will take putting together a collection of good players, as we saw during the RM years, to get it done. Henriquez certainly seems like he can be a big part of it, if surrounded by other quality players. Last week Lisch and Liddell were described as "Billiken legends" (IMO, a stretch in the case of Liddell). Even those two guys played in zero postseason games, because the rest of the roster was subpar. It takes a deep talented roster to get there. Ford seems to be moving in the right direction. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLURadioBoy Posted May 9, 2016 Share Posted May 9, 2016 Has anyone been able to find anything on Bess? This is the only visit I've heard of him taking. That's surprising to me since he seemed to be pretty coveted coming out of high school and is coming from a very respected program in Michigan State. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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