Is this the worst ever?

[Old guy]

A record we would gladly pass to someone else.

[Quality Is Job 1]

A record we would gladly pass to someone else.

Unfortunately, with the rules changes and increased scoring (which the rules changes were designed to promote), there's probably a better chance someone will get struck by both lightning and a meteorite on the same day as winning the lottery than a Div. 1 team scoring less than 20 points.

[willie]

I was still young, but do remember reading about those Billikens in Street and Smith's and watching them on the Missouri Valley Game of the Week, which came on at 12:30 on Saturday afternoons on Channel 2 in St. Louis, then the ABC station, with Easy Ed Macauley providing the unbiased game commentary about "St. Louis University." SLU had very good teams, and I don't know why those Billiken teams at least didn't get NIT invitations. There was the famous playoff game vs. Louisville played at old Robertson Fieldhouse (the infamous airplane hangar) in Peoria, when SLU, Louisville, and Drake tied for the MVC regular season title. SLU had great players in Harry Rogers, Jim Irving. I remember other good SLU players like Rich Stallworth, Carlos Martinez.

Later into the middle '70's, I remember watching a SLU game on TV vs. DePaul from old Kiel Auditorium, with few fans present due to an ice storm. Lewis McKinney was a big star.

When I visited SLU in 1978 as a High School Senior, I was there for one of SLU's 7 victories that year, over Tulane, as the Billikens were led by #32 freshman Rickey Frazier, along with Senior Carl Johnson, and freshman guard Mark Alcorn. Those were good players. I was amused when the SLU Jazz Band repeatedly played "Three Blind Mice" after questionable calls from the men in striped shirts.

When I was an undergraduate at SLU, the star players under Ekker were #32 Kelvin Henderson and #22 David Burns.

What is commonly known as the Dark Ages of Billiken Basketball lasted from 1974-1985. We do not want to go back there.I was at every game that you mentioned above. Yes there were some tough times but they were still my team just like last year was my team. I guess I don't understand loyal fans who quit on the team when things don't go well. Complain sure. Give up season tickets ,stop giving money no.

[willie]

I was at every game you mentioned above. They were still "my team. They were my team last year just as they were my team in the NCAA years. What I don't understand is how real fans quit going to games and giving money whe things get tough. I certainly don't want to go back to Dark Ages but if they do I will still be there dreaming about next year.

[cheeseman]

In Clock's defense, I'm sure he said, "re-recruited." Rumor was that Highmark was seriously considering transferring to Mizzou (and that was well before the Winfields went there [Julian originally opted for Kansas]) and Claggett was seriously considering transferring to Northern Iowa.

You are correct - those two were ready to leave until Spoon was named coach. Highmark has often said that Spoon was his coach of choice and when he came to SLU as coach Highmark was more than willing to stay. Clags had to be talked into from what I have heard him say. By the way - Bickel went to UMSL I believe.

[Old guy]

Agree getting hit by lightning and a meteorite on the same day is a very remote possibility, probably verging on a miracle. However this may become a fit subject for prayer asking for miraculous intervention in order to get rid of this record.

[Major Majerus]

I was at every game you mentioned above. They were still "my team. They were my team last year just as they were my team in the NCAA years. What I don't understand is how real fans quit going to games and giving money whe things get tough. I certainly don't want to go back to Dark Ages but if they do I will still be there dreaming about next year.

I'm with you all the way - it's my team; the only team in SL - driving to SLU beats driving to Columbia or anywhere else for a D1 addiction.

[David King]

Circa to 2014, and SLU is ranked 8th in the entire country. That proves that it can be done.

Thanks for the post!

I have full confidence that the Bills will be a Top 10 team again sometime in the future. The problem is, I don't have 30 yrs to wait for it anymore. As the great George Allen said, "The future is now!"

Get rid of Crews ASAP! Follow the Majerus model, and bring in PJ Carlesimo, or some other proven winner!

[Billiken Law]

NOTHING is worse than getting slapped around at our place by SEMO in the Sodie era. I worked in the can collecting business with a SEMO guy and I had to listen to that fool for weeks. The game was embarrassing. We were never in it.

That entire season was beyond awful. 2-10 in the non conference, losing to SEMO, Austin Peay, Eastern MI, SIUC and Oral Roberts. It was worse when you look at the talent on that team: Bryant, Izik, Ian, Drejaj (Frericks getting injured was a blow). That was a brutal season.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/saint-louis/2005-schedule.html

[Bay Area Billiken]

Thanks for the post!

I have full confidence that the Bills will be a Top 10 team again sometime in the future. The problem is, I don't have 30 yrs to wait for it anymore. As the great George Allen said, "The future is now!"

Get rid of Crews ASAP! Follow the Majerus model, and bring in PJ Carlesimo, or some other proven winner!

I also no longer have 30 years to wait ...

[Pistol]

That entire season was beyond awful. 2-10 in the non conference, losing to SEMO, Austin Peay, Eastern MI, SIUC and Oral Roberts. It was worse when you look at the talent on that team: Bryant, Izik, Ian, Drejaj (Frericks getting injured was a blow). That was a brutal season.

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/saint-louis/2005-schedule.html

That was my senior year. As many bad losses as there were, that team was actually 1-12 in close games (margin of 6 points or less, or OT games). Had they gone 7-6 in those games, they'd have been a .500 team. All the seniors - Frericks, Bryant, Ohanon - were dealing with nagging serious injuries. Bryant missed some games to go home to Baltimore because his brother was shot. After the rough start, Soderberg lost them. No one was committed. The seniors were ready to move on and the younger guys hadn't jelled yet.

Going into the season, I thought we were maybe another NIT-level team. The wheels came off quickly with a disastrous Virgin Islands trip.

Not to make excuses for them - they couldn't close out games, clearly - but that team should've been a lot better than it was.

[Box and Won]

More good times: Brad's first game at SLU, a loss to none other than UT-Martin.

About a week earlier, I ran into a girl I went to SLU with and managed to get a date with her. Since I already had tickets to the game and she was a SLU grad/fan, we decided to make that the date. As we drove down to whatever Scottrade was called at the time, Brad was giving a pregame interview on the radio. There was no confidence in his voice, and he kept going on and on about how good UT-Martin was (they went 14-14 that year). This was not your typical coach-speak, this was pure fear and doubt.

Anyway, the Bills totally crapped the bed that night, and I got drunk and did a lot of yelling. Did not get a second date.

So basically what I'm trying to say is that BRAD SODERBERG C@CK BLOCKED ME.

[Pistol]

More good times: Brad's first game at SLU, a loss to none other than UT-Martin.

About a week earlier, I ran into a girl I went to SLU with and managed to get a date with her. Since I already had tickets to the game and she was a SLU grad/fan, we decided to make that the date. As we drove down to whatever Scottrade was called at the time, Brad was giving a pregame interview on the radio. There was no confidence in his voice, and he kept going on and on about how good UT-Martin was (they went 14-14 that year). This was not your typical coach-speak, this was pure fear and doubt.

Anyway, the Bills totally crapped the bed that night, and I got drunk and did a lot of yelling. Did not get a second date.

So basically what I'm trying to say is that BRAD SODERBERG C@CK BLOCKED ME.

Oh, I remember that one - for much different reasons, obviously. Good story, by the way.

My wife asked me last night who are next opponent was. When I told her, she said, "Oh, so you'll get another easy win, right?" After a pause, I informed her that there actually was precedent for UTM beating us while she was a student at SLU. "So, yeah, I think we'll probably win by 10 or so, but...anything is possible."

That first Soderberg season, like 2004-2005, is another good example of how fragile a season can be. We were 8-12 with a lot of ugly losses heading into a game against #2 Louisville at home, which we won in dramatic fashion, as I'm sure most of you remember. We won the next 7 games after that, finally losing to UAB in the second round of the CUSA Tournament in Freedom Hall. It went from a lost season to an NIT bid (we lost to Minnesota by 10 in Scottrade).

[JMM28]

That UT Martin game was my first game as a SLU student. It angered me greatly.

[Box and Won]

I recall us actually being on the bubble at the end of Brad's first year. We lost to UAB by a point, and it felt like had we won, that would've been enough to get us pretty close to a bid. We would've played Lullville for the championship.

[JMM28]

I recall us actually being on the bubble at the end of Brad's first year. We lost to UAB by a point, and it felt like had we won, that would've been enough to get us pretty close to a bid. We would've played Lullville for the championship.

That was the year of beating #2 Ville in Savvis. I think they won 7 or 8 in a row to finish the year. Made the Martin game that much more annoying.

[kwyjibo]

I disagree with Brian that this is anything close to the worst team this year (and if it was it would be a good thing as the team this year has been pretty average) and I disagree that the methodology should be a raw rank (HSmith's suggestion that we should use raw rank back into an era when there was barely 100 teams is not close to valid). The notion that a raw rank is a good measure because it tells us "how far we are from being in the tournament" is simply incorrect in many ways: they do not use raw rank to select teams for the tournament, they do not use Massey ratings to select for the tournament, there are other means to get to the tournament, and the number of tournament teams changes (68 now). The biggest point is much simpler in that the thread is about the "worst team" and that judgement is based on relative merits (as we do not have the technology nor the authority to get teams in different time periods to play each other). There are more NCAA teams now than there was 10, 20, 30, and 40 years ago and as such no team should be penalized by raw rank in their assessment simply because it is harder to get into the NCAA tournament. If the NCAA decided to let 256 teams into the tournament would this suddenly mean we are in the golden era of SLU basketball?

The bottom line is that this years team is a barely above average but it is above average (which is the Wiz's point in the original post). You can see that in the list below where season are listed from worst to best. I do not know where they will end up but it certainly might be above average (if this team lost 18-19 more games it could well be among the worst ever). There are ten seasons where we were actually below average in the last 35 years so this season is NOT an outlier in any sense (2010-11 was worse). It is also good news that this team is seldom below average.

Last season's team was historically bad. Even then we were still in the 79th percentile which is way below SLU's history and expectations but not as objectively terrible as 1981-82 and the 1982-83 season discussed above (I was at the Blackburn game discussed above as well, left for dinner and came back for the multiple overtimes--was able to congratulate Paul Jansen myself). In the 1982-3 season, SLU was way worse than last year in the 94th percentile. If you want to ignore those seasons to say that last year's team was the worst in 30 years than you are factually correct but intentionally misleading.

[brianstl]

I disagree with Brian that this is anything close to the worst team this year (and if it was it would be a good thing as the team this year has been pretty average) and I disagree that the methodology should be a raw rank (HSmith's suggestion that we should use raw rank back into an era when there was barely 100 teams is not close to valid). The notion that a raw rank is a good measure because it tells us "how far we are from being in the tournament" is simply incorrect in many ways: they do not use raw rank to select teams for the tournament, they do not use Massey ratings to select for the tournament, there are other means to get to the tournament, and the number of tournament teams changes (68 now). The biggest point is much simpler in that the thread is about the "worst team" and that judgement is based on relative merits (as we do not have the technology nor the authority to get teams in different time periods to play each other). There are more NCAA teams now than there was 10, 20, 30, and 40 years ago and as such no team should be penalized by raw rank in their assessment simply because it is harder to get into the NCAA tournament. If the NCAA decided to let 256 teams into the tournament would this suddenly mean we are in the golden era of SLU basketball?

The bottom line is that this years team is a barely above average but it is above average (which is the Wiz's point in the original post). You can see that in the list below where season are listed from worst to best. I do not know where they will end up but it certainly might be above average (if this team lost 18-19 more games it could well be among the worst ever). There are ten seasons where we were actually below average in the last 35 years so this season is NOT an outlier in any sense (2010-11 was worse). It is also good news that this team is seldom below average.

Last season's team was historically bad. Even then we were still in the 71st percentile which is way below SLU's history and expectations but not as objectively terrible as 1981-82 where SLU was in the and the 1982-83 season discussed above (I was at the Blackburn game discussed above as well, left for dinner and came back for the multiple overtimes--was able to congratulate Paul Jansen myself). In the 1982-3 season, SLU was way worse than last year in the 94th percentile. If you want to ignore those seasons to say that last year's team was the worst in 30 years than you are factually correct but intentionally misleading.

I didn't say this current team was the worst. I said it was the sixth worst since the modern 64 team era started in 1985. Last year was the worst in that era. This is shaping up as the worst two year period of that era. This is a completely different era. There are far more teams now. While 81-82 through 83-84 may were awful those teams were not as far from the top as last season's team.

Being average means little when you are talking average out of 351 teams.

So you fit in that 170 range as a team. Great you are an average team but you have around 120 teams you have to get better than before you even get to the bubble. Saying you are an average team really masks for the majority of people how far you really need to improve before you become a NCAA tournament team. People see a C or an average rating for this team and think that's OK. We just improve some and we become a bubble team. Well, that isn't how is works. You have to improve a massive amount to become a tournament team. People should look at it more like a team that is is in the 170-160 range as a student who scored in the low 50's on a test. It is a failure and there is a hell of a lot of improvement needed before that student is going to make the honor roll.

[hsmith19]

(HSmith's suggestion that we should use raw rank back into an era when there was barely 100 teams is not close to valid).

You must have me mixed up with someone else. I mentioned what the SRS on Sports-Reference shows, which as far as I know should not be affected by there being more teams at the bottom of D1. Average point differential and strength of schedule are weighted to arrive at a number where zero is average, regardless of how many total teams there are.

And I mainly posted it as a lark because it allows us to compare all the way back to the Hickey era. For whatever it's worth it has Claggett and Highmark's senior season ahead of all three Majerus/Crews teams.

[hsmith19]

Being average means little when you are talking average out of 351 teams.

So you fit in that 170 range as a team. Great you are an average team but you have around 120 teams you have to get better than before you even get to the bubble. Saying you are an average team really masks for the majority of people how far you really need to improve before you become a NCAA tournament team. People see a C or an average rating for this team and think that's OK. We just improve some and we become a bubble team. Well, that isn't how is works. You have to improve a massive amount to become a tournament team. People should look at it more like a team that is is in the 170-160 range as a student who scored in the low 50's on a test. It is a failure and there is a hell of a lot of improvement needed before that student going to make the honor roll.

Agree. An average team now is way further from postseason relevance than it was in say 1976, which as I see it is a weakness of the SRS numbers I mentioned.

[DeSmetBilliken]

That UT Martin game was my first game as a SLU student. It angered me greatly.

Ditto

[kwyjibo]

You must have me mixed up with someone else. I mentioned what the SRS on Sports-Reference shows, which as far as I know should not be affected by there being more ###### teams at the bottom of D1. Average point differential and strength of schedule are weighted to arrive at a number where zero is average, regardless of how many total teams there are.

And I mainly posted it as a lark because it allows us to compare all the way back to the Hickey era. For whatever it's worth it has Claggett and Highmark's senior season ahead of all three Majerus/Crews teams.

I misread your post and then inferred incorrectly that you were using SRS rank. I apologize. Your point is valid.

As for an "average team" being farther away from the postseason with more teams, you make my point--they are not a "worse" team just a team less likely to get to the post-season (which is a different thing). If the NCAA expanded the tournament a team is not "better" because their chance to dance is greater. A team in a smaller conference or a terrible conference is not "better" because they are more likely to win an easier conference tournament.

[brianstl]

I misread your post and then inferred incorrectly that you were using SRS rank. I apologize. Your point is valid.

As for an "average team" being farther away from the postseason with more teams, you make my point--they are not a "worse" team just a team less likely to get to the post-season (which is a different thing). If the NCAA expanded the tournament a team is not "better" because their chance to dance is greater. A team in a smaller conference or a terrible conference is not "better" because they are more likely to win an easier conference tournament.

An average team in a diluted talent pool is worse than an average team in a higher concentration talent pool. The percentage increase from 1985 to today in the number of teams playing D1 college basketball has almost tripled the percentage increase in the number of males playing high school basketball (24.5% vs 8.5%).

So not only was an average team in 1985 closer to making the tournament, it also had more talent on that team.

[Billiken Law]

That UT Martin game was my first game as a SLU student. It angered me greatly

I recall us actually being on the bubble at the end of Brad's first year. We lost to UAB by a point, and it felt like had we won, that would've been enough to get us pretty close to a bid. We would've played Lullville for the championship.

After that Louisville game we went on a rediculous run to get on the bubble. Blew a big lead to So Miss in the first round of the tourney, didn't we lead in much of the UAB game too? Ran out of gas. It was a hell of a run though!