JC Hot Seat

[cheeseman]

Now, let's analyze this a bit further if you please. A real fan sticks with his/her team through thick and thin. Can you consider yourself a good fan of the Bills?

A real fan follows their team by going to games, watching road games, reading/listening about them regardless of their record but that does not mean that they can not make personal evaluations of the team's performance especially on a fan internet posting board. Anybody who thinks that it is your team or leave it is not being realistic.

[eastsidejoe]

A real fan follows their team by going to games, watching road games, reading/listening about them regardless of their record but that does not mean that they can not make personal evaluations of the team's performance especially on a fan internet posting board. Anybody who thinks that it is your team or leave it is not being realistic.

+1

[Pistol]

Not a joke. And, yes, I will be happy to explain after you explain how Neufeld was/is a virtual unknown. Type slow because, as you say, I just don't follow recruiting.

You have nothing, as expected.

Neufeld was easily the best-known of the 2015 kids. Offers from Clemson (I think), Colorado, and St. Mary's. There wasn't much about him available before he made that Canada U-19 team, since he went to high school in British Columbia and then took a prep year at Sunrise. There's less in terms of stats, articles, and video for foreign and prep players, although Canadian recruiting is becoming easier to follow as it becomes a more fertile ground for basketball talent. You can go ahead and pretend we all knew a ton about him but he wasn't ranked or profiled by the recruiting websites and most of what I could glean during his recruitment came from news articles from Western Canada.

So if that's our biggest get by far (and again, I think he has a chance to be a nice four-year player) what does it say about the rest of the class? We just knew so, so little about the guys coming in.

[MB73]

We have a frustrated lil poster who long ago posted his delight, his enthusiasm, for most every player when we announced the six 2014-2015 freshman recruits... Crew's first true 100% recruiting class... four 3*'s and two 2*'s. That's pretty good.

Now he says they have no talent. Rips them. Posts over and over on numerous threads.

And blasts the coach. Better off retired, he says. I know Crews credentials, and IMO he is better than 95% of the men we could bring in for his slot.

The six played with no real senior or junior support yet he compares them to freshmen who did. To boot, they had too-young and inexperienced bigs, and deep experienced bigs are the key at our level, as we learned from Majerus (BC, CE, RL, CR, DE). And none of the freshmen PG's settled into their roles, but I think with a season under their belt and a summer to think about it (and weights), we will be OK at the PG slot.

It is embarrassing the words he has used to describe one of the 2014-2015 5's from last year... berates him. It is personal. I say, by his junior year, he will contribute.

I say, we really cannot go by last year's transition Perfect Storm year results and throw fits and rip our players and coach, with cheap shots galore.

Yes, on Skip's scale, I am a 2.5. I am concerned about last year, concerned that the six kids couldn't show consistency, wondered why the rotation could not be solidified, and even the Bahamas performance makes me cringe.

AND I understand team dynamics, how a team can jell, or not... how bad apples can get into other youngster's heads on a team ("you're getting f*cked, you should start, coach is an assh*ole..."). And how last year we might have been a lot better than our record.

So I am looking to see how they do next season, they will still be very young (3 FR, 6 SOPH, 2 JR, 1 SR).

I like the OVER with the whatever-he-is-whoever- blogger who says 15 wins.

But I realize we really do not know if the kids will really step up. The six will need help from the three upperclassmen and maybe a freshman, we have a rather well known big, a freshman who I think is ready to contribute down low.

I refuse to contribute any more to a "JC Hot Seat" thread. It is inappropriate. He is not on the hot seat.

And meanwhile, constructive criticism is welcome as you see fit, go ahead and wonder, ask questions, but please no cheap personal shots from the doomsday death spiral 9; damn, try to show some class.

[Clock_Tower]

OK. I will take that as a reluctant admission that Neufeld is certainly not a virtual unknown. Thank you.

Now, was the Class of 2014 (JJ, MM, DE and RL) the best ever at SLU? Possibly. Is last year's class equally good? Probably not but they are not bad and last year's class is not "shallow" in talent. And yes, last year's class did do a great job. Pistol, you obviously like stats and you obviously have a high opinion of your basketball knowledge so here's something to consider:

Freshman in 2010-11 Freshman in 2014-15

wins: 12 11

minutes per game 94 106.7

% of minutes per game 47% (94/200) 53% (106.7/200)

points per game 33.1 30.8

% of points per game 52% (33.1/63) 51% (30.8/60)

Now, I fully admit that there were only four (4) Frosh in 2010-11 versus six (6) last year. At the same time, 4 of our top 7 scorers last year were Freshman and 5 of our top 9 scorers were Freshman. Did the Freshmen in 2010-11 suck because the team only won 12 games? I say no. Similarly, last year's team record cannot be laid at the feet of last year's Frosh.

And again, when you look at the top 4 Frosh from last year, more comparisons exist. Both teams experience injuries and the loss of players which lead to even more playing time being available. In 2010-11, of course, we lost WR and KM (The Situation), BC was hobbled by double ankle injuries most of year and CE had his season start off slow due to illness (mono) and injury (fireworks accident) and end early (shoulder); and in 2014-15, our team sustained a season ending injury to Grandy, JM was hampered with lingering injuries all season and we also experienced set backs to both Crawford (illness) and Reggie (injury). With minutes up for grabs, the Freshmen posted the following numbers:

2010-11 2014-15

MM 10.4 ppg in 29.3 mpg MY 10.0 ppg in 23.7 mpg

DE 8.5 ppg in 23.3 mpg DR 6.5 ppg in 24.8 mpg

JJ 7.5 ppg in 24.1 mpg MB 4.9 ppg in 19.2 mpg

RL 6.7 ppg in 17.5 mpg MR 4.0 ppg in 12.6 mpg

Am I saying that last year's class will be as good or better than the Class of 2014? No. Will any develop to be the A10 Player of the Year? Probably not but I do hope so. But any time you can add Freshmen who take up 53% of the minutes and score 51% of the offense (even on a below .500 team) then, yes, I say they did do a great job. If you don't get this, then maybe you don't understand college basketball and should re-evaluate the high opinion you have of yourself.

[3star_recruit]

You have nothing, as expected.

Neufeld was easily the best-known of the 2015 kids. Offers from Clemson (I think), Colorado, and St. Mary's. There wasn't much about him available before he made that Canada U-19 team, since he went to high school in British Columbia and then took a prep year at Sunrise. There's less in terms of stats, articles, and video for foreign and prep players, although Canadian recruiting is becoming easier to follow as it becomes a more fertile ground for basketball talent. You can go ahead and pretend we all knew a ton about him but he wasn't ranked or profiled by the recruiting websites and most of what I could glean during his recruitment came from news articles from Western Canada.

So if that's our biggest get by far (and again, I think he has a chance to be a nice four-year player) what does it say about the rest of the class? We just knew so, so little about the guys coming in.

You have to take each kid on a case by case basis. Welmer was 6'7 180lb at the beginning of his junior year. Was in the middle of a growth spurt when he was invited to Billiken Summer Camp a few months later. Doubled his production his senior year and was selected for some all-State games. Played well out East and was ranked one of the top 25 New England prep players in his class. All he's done the last two years is get bigger and better.

Bishop was the point guard for the New York Lightning in the EYBL. He only played about 10 games before he suffered a knee injury. He missed his chance to play in the critical July evaluation period. He also was only about 150 lb at the time. His loss was our gain.

The recruiting sites don't have the resources to follow all the mid-major recruits flying under the radar. If you're relying on them for that kind of information, you're going to be sorely disappointed.

[TheChosenOne]

Now, let's analyze this a bit further if you please. A real fan sticks with his/her team through thick and thin. Can you consider yourself a good fan of the Bills?

Do you want to make the donation and cover the cost of our tickets? If so, I will gladly continue to be a season ticket holder and won't feel bad only making it to 5 games again this season since it wouldn't be my money. The decision didn't have much to be with whether we are still fans.

[Pistol]

You have to take each kid on a case by case basis. Welmer was 6'7 180lb at the beginning of his junior year. Was in the middle of a growth spurt when he was invited to Billiken Summer Camp a few months later. Doubled his production his senior year and was selected for some all-State games. Played well ou East and was ranked one of the top 25 New England prep players in his class. All he's done the last two years is get bigger and better.

Bishop was the point guard for the New York Lightning in the EYBL. He only played about 10 games before he suffered a knee injury. He missed his chance to play in the critical July evaluation period. He also was only about 150 lb at the time. His loss was our gain.

The recruiting sites don't have the resources to follow all the mid-major recruits flying under the radar. If you're relying on them for that kind of information, you're going to be sorely disappointed.

You can't deny that Bishop came out of nowhere, Neufeld flew under the radar, and no one except SLU was coming strong after Welmer, who committed early and did that prep year. Then we got the Moore commitment, and if you search his name on the board, only two posters had mentioned him here prior to that. For a local 2016 recruit, that's remarkably little.

So while every one of them can be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, it's undeniable that overall our recruiting has been underwhelming for a team that won games in back-to-back-to-back NCAA Tournaments.

Majerus put together a serious program with some overlooked, underrated guys. The current guys are even deeper cuts, and Crews hasn't shown the ability to coach guys up the way his predecessor did. Maybe some of these guys will hit their full potential, I don't know. I'm just saying we shouldn't have to reach as far as we did.

Given the strength of the 2016-2018 classes in the region and the fact the program was coming off its three-year pinnacle, wouldn't you expect more from a recruiting standpoint?

[Pistol]

We have a frustrated lil poster who long ago posted his delight, his enthusiasm, for most every player when we announced the six 2014-2015 freshman recruits... Crew's first true 100% recruiting class... four 3*'s and two 2*'s. That's pretty good.

Now he says they have no talent. Rips them. Posts over and over on numerous threads.

And blasts the coach. Better off retired, he says. I know Crews credentials, and IMO he is better than 95% of the men we could bring in for his slot.

The six played with no real senior or junior support yet he compares them to freshmen who did. To boot, they had too-young and inexperienced bigs, and deep experienced bigs are the key at our level, as we learned from Majerus (BC, CE, RL, CR, DE). And none of the freshmen PG's settled into their roles, but I think with a season under their belt and a summer to think about it (and weights), we will be OK at the PG slot.

It is embarrassing the words he has used to describe one of the 2014-2015 5's from last year... berates him. It is personal. I say, by his junior year, he will contribute.

I say, we really cannot go by last year's transition Perfect Storm year results and throw fits and rip our players and coach, with cheap shots galore.

Yes, on Skip's scale, I am a 2.5. I am concerned about last year, concerned that the six kids couldn't show consistency, wondered why the rotation could not be solidified, and even the Bahamas performance makes me cringe.

AND I understand team dynamics, how a team can jell, or not... how bad apples can get into other youngster's heads on a team ("you're getting f*cked, you should start, coach is an assh*ole..."). And how last year we might have been a lot better than our record.

So I am looking to see how they do next season, they will still be very young (3 FR, 6 SOPH, 2 JR, 1 SR).

I like the OVER with the whatever-he-is-whoever- blogger who says 15 wins.

But I realize we really do not know if the kids will really step up. The six will need help from the three upperclassmen and maybe a freshman, we have a rather well known big, a freshman who I think is ready to contribute down low.

I refuse to contribute any more to a "JC Hot Seat" thread. It is inappropriate. He is not on the hot seat.

And meanwhile, constructive criticism is welcome as you see fit, go ahead and wonder, ask questions, but please no cheap personal shots from the doomsday death spiral 9; damn, try to show some class.

So you're already down to just taking the over at 15 wins? The other day you were saying 18-20! Weak.

Replying to the rest of this would be the equivalent of trying to converse with the guy on the street outside my building right now who reeks of urine and shouts at inanimate objects. All I can say is that I hope you have someone to talk to.

[TheChosenOne]

A real fan follows their team by going to games, watching road games, reading/listening about them regardless of their record but that does not mean that they can not make personal evaluations of the team's performance especially on a fan internet posting board. Anybody who thinks that it is your team or leave it is not being realistic.

Then I guess I am no longer a real fan since I don't have the kind of money to throw at season tickets (donation + tickets in lower level seats along the court) when my wife and I are only able to make it to a handful of games and not realize that is wasting $, yet I still followed every single game last season whether at Chaifetz or not.

When did I ever say this is my team? I just said I didn't renew my tickets when someone said there are posters on this board and other long-time season ticket holders who did not renew after years of going to games. I am one of those posters as is the couple that sat in front of us. I guess they are not fans either now since they also were not able to make many games because they recently retired and are spending considerable time traveling. Trust me, I understand I am a nobody to the athletic department and they don't give a that we didn't renew. The tickets were my only contribution to the school, so I fully acknowledge I have no input in the direction of the school or basketball program.

[Pistol]

OK. I will take that as a reluctant admission that Neufeld is certainly not a virtual unknown. Thank you.

Now, was the Class of 2014 (JJ, MM, DE and RL) the best ever at SLU? Possibly. Is last year's class equally good? Probably not but they are not bad and last year's class is not "shallow" in talent. And yes, last year's class did do a great job. Pistol, you obviously like stats and you obviously have a high opinion of your basketball knowledge so here's something to consider:

Freshman in 2010-11 Freshman in 2014-15

wins: 12 11

minutes per game 94 106.7

% of minutes per game 47% (94/200) 53% (106.7/200)

points per game 33.1 30.8

% of points per game 52% (33.1/63) 51% (30.8/60)

Now, I fully admit that there were only four (4) Frosh in 2010-11 versus six (6) last year. At the same time, 4 of our top 7 scorers last year were Freshman and 5 of our top 9 scorers were Freshman. Did the Freshmen in 2010-11 suck because the team only won 12 games? I say no. Similarly, last year's team record cannot be laid at the feet of last year's Frosh.

And again, when you look at the top 4 Frosh from last year, more comparisons exist. Both teams experience injuries and the loss of players which lead to even more playing time being available. In 2010-11, of course, we lost WR and KM (The Situation), BC was hobbled by double ankle injuries most of year and CE had his season start off slow due to illness (mono) and injury (fireworks accident) and end early (shoulder); and in 2014-15, our team sustained a season ending injury to Grandy, JM was hampered with lingering injuries all season and we also experienced set backs to both Crawford (illness) and Reggie (injury). With minutes up for grabs, the Freshmen posted the following numbers:

2010-11 2014-15

MM 10.4 ppg in 29.3 mpg MY 10.0 ppg in 23.7 mpg

DE 8.5 ppg in 23.3 mpg DR 6.5 ppg in 24.8 mpg

JJ 7.5 ppg in 24.1 mpg MB 4.9 ppg in 19.2 mpg

RL 6.7 ppg in 17.5 mpg MR 4.0 ppg in 12.6 mpg

Am I saying that last year's class will be as good or better than the Class of 2014? No. Will any develop to be the A10 Player of the Year? Probably not but I do hope so. But any time you can add Freshmen who take up 53% of the minutes and score 51% of the offense (even on a below .500 team) then, yes, I say they did do a great job. If you don't get this, then maybe you don't understand college basketball and should re-evaluate the high opinion you have of yourself.

First off, comparing the 2010-2011 and 2014-2015 teams is so, so reductive and lazy. There is no Conklin, Cassity, Ellis, or Eckerle to provide leadership. We didn't just have our two best players suddenly gone for the year. We don't have Kwamain ready to come back this season. The dynamic is totally different.

Here's the other thing you're not showing (despite showing that, yes, those freshmen were better than the 2014-2015 ones): They got better as the year went on. The schedule was tougher, too - they got clobbered at Duke (I was there), they barely got beat by Georgia and Austin Peay, they had tough road games at Portland and Missouri State, they had a neutral court tournament with games against Northeastern (won big), Ole Miss (L), and Southern Miss (L). So they finished a tough non-con schedule 5-8, one that they were supposed to go through with Reed and Mitchell.

The A10 didn't get much easier, starting 0-3. But then they started winning a few, and the losses were extremely close before they rattled off a 4-game win streak late in the season. Instead of the hopelessness of watching them get blown out day after day down the stretch like we did last season, we saw them starting to jell and show what they were capable of the following season - when, of course, they made the NCAA Tournament.

I remember driving home from the Indiana State game last season thinking, "These kids might actually be all right. Gillmann could be the next Loe, the matchup problem. Bartley looks like the next point guard. Yarbrough is a bull, I could see him being a pest for A10 forwards for four years. Ash can really draw fouls when he goes to the rim. Reynolds is small but steady and smart. Crawford is a perfect 6th or 7th guy. Roby is the non-stat sheet guy who does a little of everything. I can see where this is going."

And they never played that well again (except, arguably, early in the A10 schedule when Ash went off against Duquesne and later when we hosted VCU and lost a close one).

The 2011 team won 4 of its last 6 and looked like a solid core by the end. The 2015 team lost its last 5 (and 9 of its last 10, and 13 of its last 15...) and looked disastrous by the end, like they didn't get along with each other or the coaches.

You say I don't get college basketball (their 50%+ contributions to scoring were based on the fact they were that percentage of the roster, not that they stepped up), but my expectations are calibrated reasonably. I'm evaluating this team based on the same players, not guys who have graduated. If you think those teams are similar, you're in for a long season.

[Clock_Tower]

Majerus put together a serious program with some overlooked, underrated guys. The current guys are even deeper cuts, and Crews hasn't shown the ability to coach guys up the way his predecessor did. Maybe some of these guys will hit their full potential, I don't know. I'm just saying we shouldn't have to reach as far as we did.

Pistol. Newsflash. Jim Crews is not Rick Majerus. And none of our recruits are on par with Tatum. We already understand that.

Instead, the above lines by you say it all. Your frustration and hatred for Crews clouds your judgement. SLU is always going to have to land recruits who "fly under the radar" or who are "diamonds in the rough". And just because you cannot assemble much information about them from the Internet does not make them virtual unknowns. Instead, the above lines clearly demonstrate that you don't believe that Crews can or will coach up these recruits. And you may be perfectly correct that our recruits will not be good or as good as past classes. But to call kids virtual unknowns when they are not, to make sweeping statements that our recruiting classes are shallow and to downplay the job done by 3 of our 6 Frosh last year either shows your lack of basketball knowledge (your ability to watch the games and to comprehend/analyze the Internet data you are so good at accumulating) or your hatred and skepticism of Crews is simply bleeding through and being taken out on others. I suggest the latter.

[Clock_Tower]

First off, comparing the 2010-2011 and 2014-2015 teams is so, so reductive and lazy. There is no Conklin, Cassity, Ellis, or Eckerle to provide leadership. We didn't just have our two best players suddenly gone for the year. We don't have Kwamain ready to come back this season. The dynamic is totally different.

Here's the other thing you're not showing (despite showing that, yes, those freshmen were better than the 2014-2015 ones): They got better as the year went on. The schedule was tougher, too - they got clobbered at Duke (I was there), they barely got beat by Georgia and Austin Peay, they had tough road games at Portland and Missouri State, they had a neutral court tournament with games against Northeastern (won big), Ole Miss (L), and Southern Miss (L). So they finished a tough non-con schedule 5-8, one that they were supposed to go through with Reed and Mitchell.

The A10 didn't get much easier, starting 0-3. But then they started winning a few, and the losses were extremely close before they rattled off a 4-game win streak late in the season. Instead of the hopelessness of watching them get blown out day after day down the stretch like we did last season, we saw them starting to jell and show what they were capable of the following season - when, of course, they made the NCAA Tournament.

I remember driving home from the Indiana State game last season thinking, "These kids might actually be all right. Gillmann could be the next Loe, the matchup problem. Bartley looks like the next point guard. Yarbrough is a bull, I could see him being a pest for A10 forwards for four years. Ash can really draw fouls when he goes to the rim. Reynolds is small but steady and smart. Crawford is a perfect 6th or 7th guy. Roby is the non-stat sheet guy who does a little of everything. I can see where this is going."

And they never played that well again (except, arguably, early in the A10 schedule when Milik went off against Duquesne and later when we hosted VCU and lost a close one).

The 2011 team won 4 of its last 6 and looked like a solid core by the end. The 2015 team lost its last 5 (and 9 of its last 10, and 13 of its last 15...) and looked disastrous by the end, like they didn't get along with each other or the coaches.

You say I don't get college basketball (their 50%+ contributions to scoring were based on the fact they were that percentage of the roster, not that they stepped up), but my expectations are calibrated reasonably. I'm evaluating this team based on the same players, not guys who have graduated. If you think those teams are similar, you're in for a long season.

Not once did I say or am I suggesting that the 2010-11 and the 2014-15 teams are the same are were even similar in their play. Instead, I am trying to isolate the contributions made by the Freshman with both teams. You are so right -- we have no KM to return this year; Crawford and Reggie returning at full strength is not the same as BC and CE returning at full strength; Jim Crews is no RM; and our team never did gel or come together last year. Reasons, of course, are many. Go back and read my comments about the departure of our bad apples --- addition by subtraction.

Finally, last year's Frosh really should not have seen all that much playing time in the first place. Yes, some Freshman do come in and make an immediate impact. I am not just referring to one and done types but to guys like KL and TL -- 2 examples. AG and BJ should have been relegated to the bench behind JM, GG, TL and RA -- but weren't. Also, McBroom, Ash and Crawford should have taken up most of the minutes/scoring -- but didn't. By comparison, TL, RA and MC barely got off the bench their Freshman year. But for our Frosh last year, we would have won possibly only 5 games -- or less!! I sure remember those seasons --- Grawer's first and last seasons!! No, last year's Frosh did do a great job.

[TheChosenOne]

There are two big areas of disagreement on this board; 1) the talent level of the roster and 2) the ability of our coaching staff. These are rather substantial areas of disagreement. If someone thinks there is an overall lack of talent on the roster and that Crews and his staff are not good at recruiting/developing talent or coaching a system, then they will never come around to thinking this team will have success. If you think that the current core of players showed a lot of promise last winter and that Crews is a quality coach, then envisioning the team turning it around and reaching a high level of success again is not that much of a stretch. I think we all kind of know who stands in which camp and some of us are still unsure, but showing which way are leaning. Regardless, due to this disconnect, there will not be any agreement on the direction of the program. If you think the team is bad and the coaching is bad, the team will be bad until one or both of those things change. If you think the players and coaches are good, then your expectation is that the team will be good. We are all watching the same product, yet two substantial camps with polar opposite forecasts for the program have emerged. Lets see how this plays out.

[moytoy12]

Pistol, very reasonable and objective posts. Keep it up. Reality.

[Box and Won]

I don't like the notion of viewing someone as less of a fan for not buying season tickets. Life can get busy, and season tickets are a major financial outlay. I grit my teeth and send my payment off every year knowing that that money could easily be spent on more important things.

[slufan13]

Just found out I am not a real fan of the Cardinals, Blues, or Rams. I barely qualify as a Billikens fan, but to be safe I think I am going to request that Steve change my name from "slufan13" to "slu13"

[willie]

I don't like the notion of viewing someone as less of a fan for not buying season tickets. Life can get busy, and season tickets are a major financial outlay. I grit my teeth and send my payment off every year knowing that that money could easily be spent on more important things.

Come on Box. What's more important?

[slufanskip]

I don't like the notion of viewing someone as less of a fan for not buying season tickets. Life can get busy, and season tickets are a major financial outlay. I grit my teeth and send my payment off every year knowing that that money could easily be spent on more important things.

As someone who had them for 15 years and then has not for the last 4 or 5, I can't remember for sure. I will say there is nothing like and I truly miss going to all the games. I tape every game and get home from practice or work and watch the game before going to bed. However, not being at the games does affect the intensity in which I follow the team. There were years when the team wasn't good that I was more into the team than I was during the 3 tourney years and the difference was being at every game. I'd say going to all the games does at least in my case make me a more intense fan. Really, you could probably say a better fan

[Pistol]

I don't like the notion of viewing someone as less of a fan for not buying season tickets. Life can get busy, and season tickets are a major financial outlay. I grit my teeth and send my payment off every year knowing that that money could easily be spent on more important things.

+1

Part of me is glad I don't live in St. Louis, so I don't have to make the painful decision whether or not to get season tickets this year. If I were in the same situation I'm in here - having just bought a house and putting more money into it - it'd be hard to plop down another $1000 or so, especially given the current state of things. It's not an easy sell.

Anyone questioning TheChosenOne's (and his wife's) fanhood based on the decision not to renew season tickets clearly doesn't know anything about them or fanhood itself. She's been a hardcore SLU fan since she was a little kid and he knows the program inside and out. I can't put it any better than Box did. You can still be true fans while making the decision to prioritize other things in life financially.

[slufanskip]

What difference does it make if you are complacent if you aren't in a position to change anything. I find the stance that fans need top demand more a bit laughable as the large majority of those fans have no ability to change anything. Always makes me wonder how exactly are you or anyone going to demand more? What action will you take and what change will it cause?

It seems to me there are a few different types of posters.

1. Overly positive. Believe everything is perfect regardless of the facts

2. Want to remain positive but realize things need to improve but willing to watch and enjoy.

3. Down on the team but hope they improve

4. Thing everything sucks and their is little to no chance for this season

I believe the majority of this board including myself is in category 2, with category 3 being next.

In the end though what is having a negative attitude going to change? Is anyone actually taking any action?

3.

MB you are a 2.5? From reading your posts I would have guessed you were more a 1.5. I'm a solid 2

I disagree with Pistol on the quality of last years frosh but have the same concern about JC's ability to coach. I do appreciate and see where he comes from though and do see why he feels as he does. Last year was bad. I've tried to take the results out of the picture and look at each player as an individual talent and like what I see in MY, DR, and MB. I'm less sure on BJ and AG with the caveat that bigs develop slower so I believe either could move into the upside group. I less enthused about MR than any of the group. It's the individual players that has me excited about the upcoming season with that excitement tempered with my questions regarding JC's ability to mold them into and develop them as a team

[Pistol]

I disagree with Pistol on the quality of last years frosh but have the same concern about JC's ability to coach. I do appreciate and see where he comes from though and do see why he feels as he does. Last year was bad. I've tried to take the results out of the picture and look at each player as an individual talent and like what I see in MY, DR, and MB. I'm less sure on BJ and AG with the caveat that bigs develop slower so I believe either could move into the upside group. I less enthused about MR than any of the group. It's the individual players that has me excited about the upcoming season with that excitement tempered with my questions regarding JC's ability to mold them into and develop them as a team

I'll put it this way: I don't think we have enough talent to compensate for Crews' shortcomings as a coach, and I don't think we have a good enough coach to overcome a younger, less talented squad than we're used to.

TheChosenOne puts it well above, that we have a lot of disagreements on the board about those two areas - talent and coaching. Some are high on both, some are positive about one and negative about the other, and some (myself included, obviously) think we're short in both areas right now. It's going to be a very interesting season.

[MB73]

MB you are a 2.5? From reading your posts I would have guessed you were more a 1.5. I'm a solid 2

I disagree with Pistol on the quality of last years frosh but have the same concern about JC's ability to coach. I do appreciate and see where he comes from though and do see why he feels as he does. Last year was bad. I've tried to take the results out of the picture and look at each player as an individual talent and like what I see in MY, DR, and MB. I'm less sure on BJ and AG with the caveat that bigs develop slower so I believe either could move into the upside group. I less enthused about MR than any of the group. It's the individual players that has me excited about the upcoming season with that excitement tempered with my questions regarding JC's ability to mold them into and develop them as a team

OK, then, I am a 2.25, closer to a 2 than 3. Sure I am concerned, and though I reek of urine I do not slime the coach or our players on a personal level.

We had an incredibly young team and things went badly last year. No reason to panic and throw hissy fits.

And I went "over" the 15 that the blogger used, it does not mean I expect 15 wins. If the blogger said 13 I would go over. I'm sticking with 18 for now.

[TheChosenOne]

It is rather dumb to say that someone is no longer a fan or less of a fan because they are not a season ticket holder (especially when many of the "bigger" SLU fans know dick about basketball). Am I the only poster on this board that does not have season tickets? How many SLU fans have dedicated as much time to Billiken basketball as I have? I would doubt very many. If someone wants to donate me the money to renew our season tickets, I would certainly be receptive of that offer.

I feel like there was a delay in the negativity and true discussion of the state of the program with the Tatum recruitment and now that he chose Duke those who were slightly guarded on the off chance he committed to SLU and saved the program have no reason to hold back. I am going to hold back until we see how the team looks two months from now, but I don't think anyone has any idea what to expect from this group.

For those who would have fired Crews already, has anyone purchased firejimcrews.com? Didn't someone do that with Sodie?

[Basketbill]

First off, comparing the 2010-2011 and 2014-2015 teams is so, so reductive and lazy. There is no Conklin, Cassity, Ellis, or Eckerle to provide leadership. We didn't just have our two best players suddenly gone for the year. We don't have Kwamain ready to come back this season. The dynamic is totally different.

Here's the other thing you're not showing (despite showing that, yes, those freshmen were better than the 2014-2015 ones): They got better as the year went on. The schedule was tougher, too - they got clobbered at Duke (I was there), they barely got beat by Georgia and Austin Peay, they had tough road games at Portland and Missouri State, they had a neutral court tournament with games against Northeastern (won big), Ole Miss (L), and Southern Miss (L). So they finished a tough non-con schedule 5-8, one that they were supposed to go through with Reed and Mitchell.

The A10 didn't get much easier, starting 0-3. But then they started winning a few, and the losses were extremely close before they rattled off a 4-game win streak late in the season. Instead of the hopelessness of watching them get blown out day after day down the stretch like we did last season, we saw them starting to jell and show what they were capable of the following season - when, of course, they made the NCAA Tournament.

I remember driving home from the Indiana State game last season thinking, "These kids might actually be all right. Gillmann could be the next Loe, the matchup problem. Bartley looks like the next point guard. Yarbrough is a bull, I could see him being a pest for A10 forwards for four years. Ash can really draw fouls when he goes to the rim. Reynolds is small but steady and smart. Crawford is a perfect 6th or 7th guy. Roby is the non-stat sheet guy who does a little of everything. I can see where this is going."

And they never played that well again (except, arguably, early in the A10 schedule when Milik went off against Duquesne and later when we hosted VCU and lost a close one).

The 2011 team won 4 of its last 6 and looked like a solid core by the end. The 2015 team lost its last 5 (and 9 of its last 10, and 13 of its last 15...) and looked disastrous by the end, like they didn't get along with each other or the coaches.

You say I don't get college basketball (their 50%+ contributions to scoring were based on the fact they were that percentage of the roster, not that they stepped up), but my expectations are calibrated reasonably. I'm evaluating this team based on the same players, not guys who have graduated. If you think those teams are similar, you're in for a long season.

Milk went off against GW at GW and we lost a close game, then got blown out by Davidson....