slufan13 Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 If these freshmen show promise by end of January/February and Tatem verbals late Spring, early summer. I can see him staying for awhile. He already on year 3. I'll say that there is zero chance I'd give up on Crews before Tatum decides. Tatum can be a program changer. Him and Crews have an existing relationship, and we'd probably have no chance at Tatum if we made a change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billiken Rich Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 It's really hard to criticise the coach when the we are so inexperienced. Majerus did poorly with this kind of squad and that's to be expected. If this was a squad of upper classman I'd be spooked too. Our team offense last year wasn't great but the one thing we didn't have then, that we've been missing for years, is a really good outside shooter. Without a legitimate outside threat, it's amazing that we were able to score inside as much as we did..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLU_Nick Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Outside shooting is really only needed enough to keep defenses honest. McCall was a good enough shooter to keep Defenses honest. On our roster now we have a lot of people who I am comfortable with taking open 3s. It would be nice if more fell though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cgeldmacher Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I see us making the mistake of not establishing our post up game and solely dependent on jumpers, occassional slash to basket, and fastbreaks. To much offense being forced at the 1 and 2 positions. Losing is part of the growing process so these are areas that need improvement plus many others. +1 Nobody is passing to our bigs when they post up. If a team has no respect for one of our bigs winning a one on one battle and getting a basket, it's much easier to guard the perimeter. I'm not saying our bigs would convert everytime, but it's much like a football team passing deep every so often just to keep the defense honest. The coaching staff needs to get our guard to pass the ball inside more and then work the game from the inside out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NH Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I still disagree, but I don't really want to argue about it because neither one of us have the qualifications to coach college basketball. To answer the question though, I think Crews does way more on ball screening and a lot less away from the ball/play. Again, same basic concepts, but a lot of teams have the same basic concepts. But again, neither one of us know jack about a college offense. Just saying what I've seen (or lack thereof). But in your opinion, if the offense is incredibly similar, what is the cause for the fall in offensive efficiency from 39 (Conklin senior year) to 75 (Mitchell senior year) to 181 (Jett senior year) to 228 (now) It's not an opinion. It's almost entirely the same offense. If you went back and compared the film you would agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted December 2, 2014 Author Share Posted December 2, 2014 It's not an opinion. It's almost entirely the same offense. If you went back and compared the film you would agree. Then please explain the dramatic fall in offensive efficiency. That's all I'm asking for. I still disagree. I don't see the same offense even looking back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NH Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Then please explain the dramatic fall in offensive efficiency. That's all I'm asking for. I still disagree. I don't see the same offense even looking back. The offense doesn't have to look the same for it to be the same. We run most of the same set plays and we run most of the same motion. That's the definition of a similar offense. The drop in offensive efficiency is not hard to explain. We had fewer and fewer offensive options each of those years, without fully replacing. We lost Conklin, our best post-up presence. If you've researched the metrics that go into those types efficiency ratings you know that free throws and post-ups are crucial. We did not replace Conklin with any new offensive threats (yes obviously the players returning improved some). We also only had Kwamain for half of that season, which hurt our 3-point shooting, again one of the more important parts of offensive efficiency. The next year we lost Kwamain and Cody. Losing Cody hurt our floor spacing a lot and made it much harder for Evans to post up (again, fewer post-ups, likely drop in offensive efficiency). We also lost Kwamain (worse 3 point percentage will most likely hurt offensive efficiency. We did not replace Cody or Kwamain with anyone significant. Additionally, Jordair had the highest usage rate on our team and his game is built around contested 2-pointers. Though he was a terrific playmaker, his ft and 3-point % prevented him from being an especially efficient offensive player. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigBills Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 It's not an opinion. It's almost entirely the same offense. If you went back and compared the film you would agree. The offense doesn't have to look the same for it to be the same. We run most of the same set plays and we run most of the same motion. That's the definition of a similar offense. I love this "go back and watch the film" stuff. Like we all just have 500 hours of tape lying around. I guess you do and you've reviewed it all? Crews' offense is not drastically different from Majerus'. That's because 90% of college teams run the same sets and motions. Arguing that the offensive styles are "similar" is mostly pointless. Crews' offense deviates from Majerus' in all the wrong ways. That's the point. If he's running the same sets - which he definitely isn't doing exactly, but they are very close - he / the players are not running them efficiently. And Crews has not proven that he can identify when the offense is being inefficient and make due adjustments. He's just not a nuts and bolts guy the way Majerus was. slufan13 has identified the key issue - our guys are wandering around the perimeter without purpose. It's maddening. They have the ability, they just aren't using it. When they do decide to get within 20 feet of the basket, it's often an unfortunate drive into the lane in traffic. They'll figure it out. But I'm not convinced that it will be Crews who figures it out for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slubillikens43 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 They'll figure it out. But I'm not convinced that it will be Crews who figures it out for them. Tanner Bronson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsmith19 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Outside shooting is really only needed enough to keep defenses honest. McCall was a good enough shooter to keep Defenses honest. On our roster now we have a lot of people who I am comfortable with taking open 3s. It would be nice if more fell though. I understand the argument that it's not really "needed." But don't you think SLU would be better if they had a true lockdown 3-point threat? I'm not saying Erwin Claggetts grow on trees, but if schools like Duquesne can get a Mica Mason and Corpus Christi can get that Pye kid or whatever his name was, I'm not sure why everyone here is so cool with giving up on ever getting a better three point shooter than the McCalls or Mitchells of the world. I still think McBroom might turn out to be better than any of those guys from 3 points. We'll see, but I agree with the people here saying they'd like to see SLU recruit more sniper-type guards. Yeah, Ellis and Loe created all sorts of matchup problems and were valuable in terms of spacing, but they were not high percentage three point shooters, and neither were McCall and Mitchell (neither improved late in their careers here as many hoped they would). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 I love this "go back and watch the film" stuff. Like we all just have 500 hours of tape lying around. I guess you do and you've reviewed it all? Crews' offense is not drastically different from Majerus'. That's because 90% of college teams run the same sets and motions. Arguing that the offensive styles are "similar" is mostly pointless. Crews' offense deviates from Majerus' in all the wrong ways. That's the point. If he's running the same sets - which he definitely isn't doing exactly, but they are very close - he / the players are not running them efficiently. And Crews has not proven that he can identify when the offense is being inefficient and make due adjustments. He's just not a nuts and bolts guy the way Majerus was. slufan13 has identified the key issue - our guys are wandering around the perimeter without purpose. It's maddening. They have the ability, they just aren't using it. When they do decide to get within 20 feet of the basket, it's often an unfortunate drive into the lane in traffic. They'll figure it out. But I'm not convinced that it will be Crews who figures it out for them. It resembles the Brad offense more than the Majerus offense. Majerus was a stickler for the most minute detail and I didn't expect the same attention to detail from Crews. All the detail stuff has gotten sloppier every year under Crews. At this point it is just a complete mess. The type of screens they run, the form they use on those screens, when they run the screens, the decisions they make off those screens, the spacing on offense........... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Tanner Bronson He appears to me to be the best basketball detail mind on the staff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufanskip Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Outside shooting is really only needed enough to keep defenses honest. McCall was a good enough shooter to keep Defenses honest. On our roster now we have a lot of people who I am comfortable with taking open 3s. It would be nice if more fell though. Outside (3 pt) shooting is more than just keeping people honest. 33% from the 3 = 50% from the 2. Yes, it would be nice if more fell which would mean you were a better outside shooter wouldn't it. Either in the paint or from the 3, that's what basketball has turned into. Saying it's only needed to keep defenses honest is akin to saying inside scoring is only needed to create open 3's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wiz Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Outside shooting is really only needed enough to keep defenses honest. McCall was a good enough shooter to keep Defenses honest. On our roster now we have a lot of people who I am comfortable with taking open 3s. It would be nice if more fell though. This is part of the problem. There is no one other than McBroom to take the 3's. We are shooting 34% from the arc. Not good ...not bad ...just average. But looking into the numbers is disturbing. Subtract McBroom (50%) from the mix and the whole rest of the team is shooting 24% . Without McBroom, we would be in the bottom 4% of all schools in 3pt shooting. The last game was a good example of this. McBroom shot 67% (6-9) from 3pt range. The rest of the team shot 0% (0-10). We won the Bradley game because Bradley wasn't very good. We don't need sharpshooters....a weak 30% from the rest of the team would make a big difference If we can't shoot better from the arc than we have to this point...it could be a long season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billfan78 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 He appears to me to be the best basketball detail mind on the staff. How so? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kmbilliken Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 How so?Because he's not the head coach so you can't blame what's happening on him. The head coach takes all the blame. The assistants can be labeled genius head coaches in waiting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billfan78 Posted December 2, 2014 Share Posted December 2, 2014 Exactly, Porter Moser comes to mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brianstl Posted December 3, 2014 Share Posted December 3, 2014 Exactly, Porter Moser comes to mind. Nobody thought Porter was a basketball genius. People thought he was a good recruiter. I think that about Tanner because of things that Rickma said about him and other things I have heard since then. I am not saying replace Crews with Tanner. crews has earned and deserves the job. I may hate the offense under Crews, but the defense actually improved under his watch. I just think they need to really examine what they are trying to do offensively. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NH Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 An interesting clip of our set plays from a few years back. I'd be curious to watch this season and see how many of these we still see moving forward along with seeing which ones are gone and what new set plays we've implemented. Note: not trying to say this speaks any volumes regarding Crews v. Majerus moving forward. I'm sure every college basketball coach steals as many good plays as they can regardless of offensive philosophy. These plays also indicate just how many offensive weapons we used to have (Jett driving left, Kwa driving right, Cody running off screens, Dwayne on post ups). Hopefully as these freshmen develop we get some of the same types of ammo. I can see some Jolly posts and Milik isos in our future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slu72 Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Someone made a comment about our Off efficiency and attributed it to Kyle Cassidy. From a purely eye test view I'd agree. Our offense under RM never looked as smooth and efficient as it did in that Anaheim tourney we won back in '11. Also, in our games before going out west. Remember we beat UW by a good margin. We also dismantled a pretty good Nova team in that tourney. That was fun to watch. As for JC's offense, he admitted about two years ago that RM preferred to run on ball screens where he was more of an off ball coach. My guess is that's a carryover from his IU days, ie Knight's motion offense where screens were set away from the ball. Now we didn't see that from him during the past two years because, as he said many times, these guys knew the system better than he did. So, why try and change it with something different that would take time to implement. Good decision, and we saw great success. Now it's his baby. But he's got to do it with a lot of inexperience. Not only is his offense new to all the players, but so's playing at this level new to a lot of them. From the games I've watched, I can't make sense of what's going on out there. I don't see crisp tight on ball screens that we've become accustomed to seeing, nor do I see guys moving w/o the ball coming off a screen that's been set away from the ball. This leads me to believe his system just hasn't sunk in yet. Understandable given the newness of this team. I'm sure he's got a system he's trying to teach, but I expect we'll see more of this helter skelter type of play until it finally takes hold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dwayne's_World Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Now it's his baby. But he's got to do it with a lot of inexperience. Not only is his offense new to all the players, but so's playing at this level new to a lot of them. From the games I've watched, I can't make sense of what's going on out there. I don't see crisp tight on ball screens that we've become accustomed to seeing, nor do I see guys moving w/o the ball coming off a screen that's been set away from the ball. This leads me to believe his system just hasn't sunk in yet. Understandable given the newness of this team. I'm sure he's got a system he's trying to teach, but I expect we'll see more of this helter skelter type of play until it finally takes hold. +1 Just because it's different than what most of us are accustomed to, doesn't mean it won't eventually become an effective offensive system. People need to chill out, it's too early to be saying that Crews doesn't have a handle on this team. He's more than capable, Majerus apparently thought so because he had the guy take over what HE had built. He trusted Crews more than anyone else. I am one to believe that he will have us back in the top 25 in 1-2 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zink Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 An interesting clip of our set plays from a few years back. I'd be curious to watch this season and see how many of these we still see moving forward along with seeing which ones are gone and what new set plays we've implemented. Note: not trying to say this speaks any volumes regarding Crews v. Majerus moving forward. I'm sure every college basketball coach steals as many good plays as they can regardless of offensive philosophy. These plays also indicate just how many offensive weapons we used to have (Jett driving left, Kwa driving right, Cody running off screens, Dwayne on post ups). Hopefully as these freshmen develop we get some of the same types of ammo. I can see some Jolly posts and Milik isos in our future. Really cool video. It's clear that a stretch-4 is required for nearly all of those plays. I wonder if we have been prevented from using a lot of these due to Tanner's lack of PT/production. He's the only stretch-4 on the roster, although Milik could be considered a hybrid-4 who could take his man off the dribble more often than shoot on a few of the plays designed to get the 4 open. Many of these plays rely on the ballhandler getting a screen and attacking the bucket, making it difficult to envision Austin as the primary option on those plays. A few also lead to open shots after a quick ball reversal freed up by an off-ball screen, and those are perfect for him (and he probably is better at hitting that shot than McCall & Mitchell ever were). We need to incorporate more of the Jett/Mitchell actions with Ash as the primary option. I can see all of our freshmen guards playing the 1/2 in these sets, but with slightly different biases; it will be important for the staff to highlight each guys' skills and hide their weaknesses. It will be interesting to see how we incorporate Milik into the the offense as he is clearly one of our better natural scorers, but doesn't quite fit the mold of any of the other hybrid 3/4's we've had. He is more capable off the dribble than Evans/Ellis, but without the same post skills/shooting. Pairing him with Tanner would be a nightmare for opposing teams to cover, but it is looking more like Reggie is the solution at the 4 due to his rebounding and burgeoning post-up game (of course, this could change tomorrow). I could see us running Mike through some of the double screens that Ellis used to get open, with the two bigs working as screeners; perhaps this is why we have seen Mike posting up on occasion - he is playing what used to be the "4" on some of the Ellis sets. Incorporating everyone will continue to be a tall task for Crews, and shortening the rotation might be part of the solution - stick to guys with defined sets of skills that you can run plays for instead of trying to fit each of the different pegs into the same holes. Barnett never played the role of McCall who rarely played the role of Jett. Remekun never played the role of Cody who rarely played the role of Conklin. Forming a cohesive unit when you have 7 new guys can't be easy, but I am eager for it to happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsmith19 Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 We don't need sharpshooters.... Again, not "needing" them doesn't mean they wouldn't help. In the post-Spoon era, SLU seems to have totally punted on ever hoping to get a guy like that, and they are out there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLU_Nick Posted December 4, 2014 Share Posted December 4, 2014 Again, not "needing" them doesn't mean they wouldn't help. In the post-Spoon era, SLU seems to have totally punted on ever hoping to get a guy like that, and they are out there. But they don't play the championship defense that we need. The white guy from Xavier comes to mind from a couple years ago. I forget his name. I loved when he would come in when we played Xavier because he would always struggle to guard McCall, KM, or JJ and shoot every time he got it because he felt like that is what he was in there for. And if you can shoot like the Xavier white guy and can actually play decent defense then you are a 4.5-5 star recruit. I would love to have Nik Stauskas....but so would a lot of other BCSers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slufan13 Posted December 4, 2014 Author Share Posted December 4, 2014 I'd take another Lisch 3 point % by season FR: 41.4% SO: 40.9%JR: 38.4% SR: 37.8% Averaged 30+ minutes per game every season and averaged at least two made 3's per game every season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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