A-10 additions

[kappy96]

Lot's of chatter on twitter today about VCU and George Mason joining the A-10 on May 1. The two commish's have denied it but the speculation just won't go away.

Adam Zagoria ‏ @AdamZagoria

Source on Mason/VCU to the A-10: "I would be shocked if it doesn't happen."

Jon Rothstein ‏ @JonRothstein

Per @LennRobbins VCU and George Mason will head to the A-10 on May 1st. Possibly Butler as well.

[Basketbill]

what about Butler?

[kshoe]

what about Butler?

The twitter post that got it all started said Butler was a probably. Wish they would just get it done...

[NashvilleBilliken]

Not a huge fan. I feel like this puts us closer to a mid-major than major. Both have had extreme success lately, but I question there sustainability. George Mason is already fading away and VCU is one coaching move away from oblivion. Plus, we have both markets already covered. Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

[jjray]

Not a huge fan. I feel like this puts us closer to a mid-major than major. Both have had extreme success lately, but I question there sustainability. George Mason is already fading away and VCU is one coaching move away from oblivion. Plus, we have both markets already covered. Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

From the standpoint of the east coast schools, it makes geographic sense in that these two are expected to replace UMass and UNCC. The change more tightly draws together the east coast schools centering the conference around Washington, DC metro. Richmond is only 107 miles from DC (i.e., STL to Columbia), although the traffic is murder on that route. Philly isn't far from DC either. I'm fine with this move. But we need Bulter to replace Temple.

[jbizzle09]

Not a huge fan. I feel like this puts us closer to a mid-major than major. Both have had extreme success lately, but I question there sustainability. George Mason is already fading away and VCU is one coaching move away from oblivion. Plus, we have both markets already covered. Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Not really sure how GMU and VCU can really hurt the conference from a basketball standpoint. Even if you discount their Final Four appearances and feel like they might never reach those heights again, they still offer more than what a handful of teams currently in the conference have ever done. Look at the lack of post-season success for the following teams:

Duquesne: Last appeared in the NCAA tournament in 1976-77, which was well before joining the A-10. Have only finshed above .500 five times since joining the A-10 in 1993-94.

Fordham: Last made the NCAA tourney in 1991-92 (as a Patriot League member.) Have only finished above .500 once since joining the A-10 in 1995-96.

La Salle: Last made the NCAA tournament in 1991-92 (as a MAAC member.) Have only finished above .500 3 times since joining the A-10 in 1995-96.

Meanwhile, George Mason has won 20 or more games 5 of the last 7 seasons, made the NCAA tournament 3 times in that span and gone to a Final Four. They also won an NCAA tournament game in 2010-11. The last time they finished below .500 was in 1997-98. VCU has won 20 or more games 6 straight seasons under two different head coaches. Prior to Shaka taking over, their previous two coaches left for BCS programs (Anthony Grant and Jeff Capel) yet they were able to persevere and actually improve after each departure. They've made the NCAA tourney 4 of the last 6 seasons, and in 3 of those years, they won NCAA tournament games.

I think that the addition of these programs can only strenghten the profile of the A-10, not bring it down. I can understand some arguments about not wanting them in (large, public universities rather than private; A-10 already in Richmond and DC), but these are schools that have had recent success in the NCAA tournament. IMO, they can only help the future success of the A-10 in basketball.

[jbizzle09]

From the standpoint of the east coast schools, it makes geographic sense in that these two are expected to replace UMass and UNCC. The change more tightly draws together the east coast schools centering the conference around Washington, DC metro. Richmond is only 107 miles from DC (i.e., STL to Columbia), although the traffic is murder on that route. Philly isn't far from DC either. I'm fine with this move. But we need Bulter to replace Temple.

Also, there is always the possibility that Richmond will want to move their football program to FBS as well. The thought has been kicked around a bit for the past couple of years.

[NashvilleBilliken]

From the standpoint of the east coast schools, it makes geographic sense in that these two are expected to replace UMass and UNCC. The change more tightly draws together the east coast schools centering the conference around Washington, DC metro. Richmond is only 107 miles from DC (i.e., STL to Columbia), although the traffic is murder on that route. Philly isn't far from DC either. I'm fine with this move. But we need Bulter to replace Temple.

I'm out of the loop....did not know UMASS and UNCC were leaving. I know it's been discussed, but wasn't aware they received an offer. If so, this makes a little more sense. Still not thrilled on the teams, but I suppose bigger is better in this day and age and they would fill the need.

[OkieBilliken]

From the Indianapolis Star today:

More A-10 speculation about Butler

1 hour and 56 minutes ago | Written by David Woods |1 Comments

This is the way it is in the Twitter universe: Put something out there, and wait for reaction.

That’s what Lenn Robbins of The New York Post did today when he tweeted that VCU and George Mason would join the Atlantic 10 on May 1, and Butler “probably” would. At least “probably” differs from the “done deal” reports of earlier weeks.

Officials from VCU, the A-10 and Colonial Athletic Association all deny the move is imminent. I have spent all week researching an upcoming Butler/A-10 story and have found no smoking guns. Yet Robbins could certainly be proved correct, if not on May 1.

The fact that virtually no one at Butler is willing to talk on or off the record about the subject makes a journalist suspicious.

There are eight major conferences in college basketball and have been for several years. Those eight are the six BCS football leagues, plus the A-10 and Mountain West. I am somewhat surprised that the influential national media in college basketball have not asserted this more often. Mike DeCourcy of The Sporting News pointed this out to me two years ago, and I knew he was correct.

A 16-team Atlantic 10 might be a bit unwieldy. But if UMass and Charlotte eventually depart for football reasons, the A-10 would return to 14 teams and remain a formidable basketball league. If the gap is going to widen between haves and have-nots, Butler would not want to be left behind with the latter.

Having said that, under the current landscape, every strong Butler team since 2001 would have earned an NCAA at-large berth without winning the Horizon League tournament. That includes the 2002 Snub Team because it would have made a 68-team field. So to claim Butler can’t make the tournament as an at-large out of the Horizon would be false. But things change in college sports.

Irrespective of outcome, it is refreshing to read about conference realignment based on basketball. So far, everything else has been about King Football.

[NashvilleBilliken]

Not really sure how GMU and VCU can really hurt the conference from a basketball standpoint. Even if you discount their Final Four appearances and feel like they might never reach those heights again, they still offer more than what a handful of teams currently in the conference have ever done. Look at the lack of post-season success for the following teams:

Duquesne: Last appeared in the NCAA tournament in 1976-77, which was well before joining the A-10. Have only finshed above .500 five times since joining the A-10 in 1993-94.

Fordham: Last made the NCAA tourney in 1991-92 (as a Patriot League member.) Have only finished above .500 once since joining the A-10 in 1995-96.

La Salle: Last made the NCAA tournament in 1991-92 (as a MAAC member.) Have only finished above .500 3 times since joining the A-10 in 1995-96.

Meanwhile, George Mason has won 20 or more games 5 of the last 7 seasons, made the NCAA tournament 3 times in that span and gone to a Final Four. They also won an NCAA tournament game in 2010-11. The last time they finished below .500 was in 1997-98. VCU has won 20 or more games 6 straight seasons under two different head coaches. Prior to Shaka taking over, their previous two coaches left for BCS programs (Anthony Grant and Jeff Capel) yet they were able to persevere and actually improve after each departure. They've made the NCAA tourney 4 of the last 6 seasons, and in 3 of those years, they won NCAA tournament games.

I think that the addition of these programs can only strenghten the profile of the A-10, not bring it down. I can understand some arguments about not wanting them in (large, public universities rather than private; A-10 already in Richmond and DC), but these are schools that have had recent success in the NCAA tournament. IMO, they can only help the future success of the A-10 in basketball.

Yeah, i responded above that I wasn't aware of some of the other factors. That being said, comparing these teams to the bottom tier of the league doesn't mean a whole lot to me. But, I do agree that they will not hurt the A-10. I think they will be solid middle tier teams with an opportunity to hit the top tier. Just not thrilled with it.

[RiseAndGrind]

Adding VCU & GMU is a plus, if for no other reason that it currently strengthens the league. The winners in this realignment craze are those who move first. If you wait, you're going to be left behind.

By adding these two and possibly Butler or ODU, the A10 would be better equipped to withstand a couple of schools leaving, which the A10 presumably knows is going to happen.

I'm excited about the possibility and I hope Butler commits soon. They are the real "get" in this situation, IMHO.

[kshoe]

Adding VCU & GMU is a plus, if for no other reason that it currently strengthens the league. The winners in this realignment craze are those who move first. If you wait, you're going to be left behind.

By adding these two and possibly Butler or ODU, the A10 would be better equipped to withstand a couple of schools leaving, which the A10 presumably knows is going to happen.

I'm excited about the possibility and I hope Butler commits soon. They are the real "get" in this situation, IMHO.

No doubt. From our perspective, Butler is the key as they are the best of the three teams and Midwest based. Really hoping this happens.

[brianstl]

I think there are better choices from a SLU perspective and when it comes to adding to the overall national appeal of the A10 conference longterm than GMU and to a lesser extent VCU. Neither team as adds a new market to the A10 while you are losing to large markets in Boston and Charlotte. I just don't see how becoming more like the CAA makes the A10 better or adds anything to make it a longterm home for SLU. I think even if Butler gets added......... SLU, Butler, Dayton and X have to look for some better option.

[RiseAndGrind]

I think there are better choices from a SLU perspective and when it comes to adding to the overall national appeal of the A10 conference longterm than GMU and to a lesser extent VCU. Neither team as adds a new market to the A10 while you are losing to large markets in Boston and Charlotte. I just don't see how becoming more like the CAA makes the A10 better or adds anything to make it a longterm home for SLU. I think even if Butler gets added......... SLU, Butler, Dayton and X have to look for some better option.

Just curious, but who?

Obviously Butler, but after that the choices become slim. Creighton would be great, but that's about it.

Add those 4 and have UMass, UNCC, Fordham, & someone else leave.

[slu72]

Believe it or not, UMass does not dominate the Boston market. BC and Harvard have that pretty much to themselves. UMass is usually found on the 3rd page of the Globe. UMass ain't Mizzery in Mass's big market.

[cheeseman]

Fordam is not leaving - are they not a founding member of the A10 - who would take them? With the A10 consistently getting 3-4 teams into the NCAA we are a cash cow for them so why would they step down to a lower conf? I still am having trouble seeing how both VCU and GMU help the A10 - I agree the market is already covered and all you do is create another Philly situation. At least Smart would be the highest paid coach in the league. I understand that UNCC and UMASS might leave eventually but the problem is why make this decision now - wait until it happens. Where is VCU and GMU going to go - we can pluck them up anytime. As far as Richmond leaving - same deal as I said above. Adding Butler makes great sense as the replacement for Temple and adding a little more balance geography wise for the conference, us, X and Dayton and actually Duq. to some extent.

[AlumniFan]

Just curious, but who? Obviously Butler, but after that the choices become slim. Creighton would be great, but that's about it. Add those 4 and have UMass, UNCC, Fordham, & someone else leave.

I am in agreement with Butler and Creighton because they are similar to SLU. VCU and GM are not. I would prefer to add midwestern schools with similar characteristics to SLU, but there really aren't any other than in the Big East which I believe is your point. And the Big East has been discussed ad nauseam here.

[pakapablo]

Not a huge fan. I feel like this puts us closer to a mid-major than major. Both have had extreme success lately, but I question there sustainability. George Mason is already fading away and VCU is one coaching move away from oblivion. Plus, we have both markets already covered. Just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

We could be one coaching move away from oblivion

[billiken_roy]

the following is a post at the a-10 message board by Dayton fan, Muddy Waters. I love his thinking. the icky part is the fordham expulsion which probably kills the idea. but beyond that, i love the set up. the concept could also be achieved by making the hard choice of either george mason or vcu and inserting fordham in the other slot.

1. Expel Fordham

2. Form 3 Divisions of 5 teams:

Northeast Division

1. LaSalle

2. Massachusetts

3. Rhode Island

4. St. Bonaventure

5. St. Joseph's

Southeast Division

1. Charlotte

2. George Mason

3. George Washington

4. Richmond

5. Virginia Commonwealth

West Division

1. Butler

2. Dayton

3. Duquesne

4. Saint Louis

5. Xavier

3. Play 18 regular season games (8 games vs. your own division + 10 non-division games).[/background]

4. The 12 best teams get invited to the Atlantic 10 Tournament in March. The 3 worst teams don't.[/background]

5. The top 4 seeds, by definition, are the three Division winners + the best team that did not win its Division.[/background]

6. Everybody is happy, except Fordham, who won’t adequately invest in basketball, and is never happy anyway.[/background]

7. Wait for Xavier, Dayton, Saint Louis, Butler, and Richmond to bolt when DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John’s and Villanova get tired of being pushed around by the football schools and decide to form a proper 12-team basketball-centric conference of like-minded, private universities which has inherent long-term stability

[jbizzle09]

Fordam is not leaving - are they not a founding member of the A10 - who would take them? With the A10 consistently getting 3-4 teams into the NCAA we are a cash cow for them so why would they step down to a lower conf? I still am having trouble seeing how both VCU and GMU help the A10 - I agree the market is already covered and all you do is create another Philly situation. At least Smart would be the highest paid coach in the league. I understand that UNCC and UMASS might leave eventually but the problem is why make this decision now - wait until it happens. Where is VCU and GMU going to go - we can pluck them up anytime. As far as Richmond leaving - same deal as I said above. Adding Butler makes great sense as the replacement for Temple and adding a little more balance geography wise for the conference, us, X and Dayton and actually Duq. to some extent.

Fordham is not a founding member of the A-10. They joined the A-10 in 1995-96, about 20 years after the A-10 was formed. They were previously in the Patriot League, which is about where they belong.

[Backhand Backhand]

the following is a post at the a-10 message board by Dayton fan, Muddy Waters. I love his thinking. the icky part is the fordham expulsion which probably kills the idea. but beyond that, i love the set up. the concept could also be achieved by making the hard choice of either george mason or vcu and inserting fordham in the other slot.

1. Expel Fordham

2. Form 3 Divisions of 5 teams:

Northeast Division

1. LaSalle

2. Massachusetts

3. Rhode Island

4. St. Bonaventure

5. St. Joseph's

Southeast Division

1. Charlotte

2. George Mason

3. George Washington

4. Richmond

5. Virginia Commonwealth

West Division

1. Butler

2. Dayton

3. Duquesne

4. Saint Louis

5. Xavier

3. Play 18 regular season games (8 games vs. your own division + 10 non-division games).[/background]

4. The 12 best teams get invited to the Atlantic 10 Tournament in March. The 3 worst teams don't.[/background]

5. The top 4 seeds, by definition, are the three Division winners + the best team that did not win its Division.[/background]

6. Everybody is happy, except Fordham, who won’t adequately invest in basketball, and is never happy anyway.[/background]

7. Wait for Xavier, Dayton, Saint Louis, Butler, and Richmond to bolt when DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John’s and Villanova get tired of being pushed around by the football schools and decide to form a proper 12-team basketball-centric conference of like-minded, private universities which has inherent long-term stability

I like it, great basketball conference. And having more nearby division games cuts down on the travel.

[Bobby Metzinger]

Believe it or not, UMass does not dominate the Boston market. BC and Harvard have that pretty much to themselves. UMass is usually found on the 3rd page of the Globe. UMass ain't Mizzery in Mass's big market.

Great post. Hockey East gets more coverage than UMass. Worcester Telegram might cover a little more in Amherst than the Globe. Door-to-door, it's 2 hours from the Globe to the Mullins Center. Right down the Bob Ryan Expressway...

[Clock_Tower]

I agree with the others who feel the markets are already covered. Just bc GMU and VCU are better than some of the current A10 doormats does not mean these 2 schools should be added. Now if the A10 wants to contact and replace 2 current doormats with them, then that's a different story.

In short, being the big fish in your small pond gives you the chance each year to make a name for yourself. X dominated the old A10 and therefore got a chance to make the Tourney each year, and once there, made a name for themselves. Butler has now done this with the Horizon and become a "national name" team. Gonzaga has done the same. Now, the same can be said with GMU and VCU. The A10 can load up with teams former Tourney stars and Cinderellas but the NCAA will simply not stand for allowing 5 or 6 of these teams in each year - especially if the Colonial, Horizon, etc keep sending replacements/future Cinderellas. Frankly, the successful mid majors will do better staying in their smaller ponds. Otherwise, it's simple math. 3 or 4 teams out of 15 A10 teams will make the tourney (harder for SLU) giving rise to the next Butler to dominate the Horizon...., the next GMU to dominate the Colonial, etc.

[Taj79]

The problem with A10 expansion is the fact that there are very few decent basketball teams in the midwest to access and they very name "Atlantic" seems to focus newcomers to the eastern seaboard.

There isn't any team in the midwest worth annexing to this group. Okay, it appears Butler is coming but doubt they do it wihtout having the base of us, Dayton and Xavier. They've outgrown the Horizen for sure but after them, who could possibly even consider it? Who's on a list of "desirable" midwest schools floating around out there in "lesser" conferences? Creighton? They don't seem to think so. Name someone else. And you can't count DePaul and Marquette and ND. The A10 as a step up.

I think addition by subtraction makes sense but convincing Fordham and the Bonnies and La Salle to mosey on over to the MAAC or Patriot League would be a hard sell.

Oh well, it is what it is and we are stuck.

[brianstl]

The problem with A10 expansion is the fact that there are very few decent basketball teams in the midwest to access and they very name "Atlantic" seems to focus newcomers to the eastern seaboard.

There isn't any team in the midwest worth annexing to this group. Okay, it appears Butler is coming but doubt they do it wihtout having the base of us, Dayton and Xavier. They've outgrown the Horizen for sure but after them, who could possibly even consider it? Who's on a list of "desirable" midwest schools floating around out there in "lesser" conferences? Creighton? They don't seem to think so. Name someone else. And you can't count DePaul and Marquette and ND. The A10 as a step up.

I think addition by subtraction makes sense but convincing Fordham and the Bonnies and La Salle to mosey on over to the MAAC or Patriot League would be a hard sell.

Oh well, it is what it is and we are stuck.

Teams in the midwest/midsouth that would be worth a look would include Butler, Creighton, Belmont, Murray St., Bradley, Oral Roberts, Cleveland St., or even a Detroit Mercy. Schools that would expand the footprint of the conference, bring in new TV markets, help expand the recruiting areas for existing members, and/or have had a recent history of getting into the dance.