Burwell Article - MU vs. SLU

[slufanskip]

The entire argument against the game is silly. It goes against the everything sports is supposed to be about. Look Mizzou plays in the Big 12 now soon to ben the SEC. They have the tremendous recruiting and monetary advantages being in the BCS conferences bring. Man up, get a solid grip on your balls and play. You're right, SLU will have the motivation to beat the big Mizzou, so what? Did big brothers shy away from playing little brothers because they might lose? No, you play your little brother anyway. And really big brother also has the extra motivation of saying ... no f..king way my little brother is going to beat my a$$.

Man up and play. F..k all the waht if this happens and what if that happens. Compete hard and win or take your lumps. After all isn't that what sport is all about?

[TJHawk]

Why not play SLU, the Paige only brings in 400 fans for a non conference game. Typical Mizzou.

[Bay Area Billiken]

For the record, I came over here b/c there was a story in the P-D that involved Mizzou & SLU, so I thought it would be fun to talk to you guys about it. It's not all that fun to talk to a bunch of Mizzou fans who just agree with each other.

The reason the game happens is only partially b/c of the fans. The reason this game isn't happening and Wisconsin-Marquette or Kentucky-Louisville does is that the national awareness/opinion of Marquette and Louisville are substantially higher than that of SLU. College sports are all about rankings, and rankings are all about perceptions, and whether or not SLU might be better than Marquette of Louisville in a given year is irrelevant, because the SLU program is not as nationally recognizable as they are, so it's a much bigger hit for Mizzou to lose to SLU than it is for Wisconsin to lose to Marquette or Kentucky to lose to Louisville.

And please educate us as how you explain Creighton playing Nebraska every year. If anything, Creighton is the one with more to lose and less to gain there. Yet, the game is played annually.

Your arguments, like most of those of the Yahoos, are silly rubbish. Mizzou won't play SLU because it is afraid of getting beat, period. And the Mizzou World will not come to an end, if and when that happens.

State finances alone should get elected officials in positions of power, as stewards of the state's resources, to compel that the public school, funded by hard earned taxpayers' money, play this game. Drawing 5,000 or less for the assorted cupcakes is not being fiscally responsible.

[Bay Area Billiken]

Seriously though, what Mizzou gets from its non-conference schedule (which this year featured 2 Big East teams, 1 Pac 12 team, and 1 B1G team) is they win, and have a good RPI, and make the tournament, and not have to worry about whether or not SLU played way over their heads and pulled off a big upset that might hurt them come Tourney time.

A SLU win over Mizzou would not be a major upset. A SLU home win over Mizzou would not qualify as an upset at all.

You cite Cal from the Pac (Pathetic) 12. SLU is better than Cal. Cal can't play once it leaves the Pacific Time Zone. But Mizzou has something in common with Cal, which is another big taxpayer funded public school that also ducks neighboring schools in favor of serving up cupcakes in its California Cuisine.

[slufan13]

Metz?

I like the SLU, Mizzou, Kansas, Illinois 4 team mini tourney idea. Mizzou fans still get to watch their team lose to Kansas in the championship, SLU gets a couple regional rivalry games and 1 or 2 more BCS wins, Illinois gets 2 more losses, and Kansas stays in the STL market and gets to beat Mizzou again.

[estiger]

As a Tiger fan who grew up in St. Louis and still resides here, I will say that I think that MU fans in St. Louis would love to have the game and series against SLU. MU fans from outside of St. Louis don't care about SLU all that much, so the dynamics of the game would favor SLU. SLU;s entire fanbase and student body would be psychotic about the game. I don't think kids who attend MU who grew up in the bootheel or Kansas City or northwest missouri really care that much about playing SLU, so our fanbase (outside of St. Louis) would not be as motivated. I remember when the teams played at the Arena in December of 1979 when Mizzou had Stipo, Larry Drew, Ricky Frazier, Sundvold and several other really good players. That team was in the Top 15 most of the season and it won the Big 8 Title. Injuries and an academic casualty (Steve Wallace ) stripped the team of its depth, but it still made the Sweet 16. When MU played SLU that year, everyone was healthy and no one had flunked out yet. It was one of Norm's best teams at MU. SLU had a team which finished in the lower half of the Metro Conference that year. I believe Norm caught a lot of grief from SLU folks at the promotional lunches and media gatherings, and SLU was jacked up to an unbelievably high level. Mizzou won the game in OT, but SLU should have won the game in regulation. I think that game convinced Norm that there was little to be gained and much to be lost by playing SLU. The return game at the Hearnes Center the following year was a total yawner. Quin had a similar experience in his first three years as MU's coach, wherein SLU had the more motivated team and fan base for each game (even the one played at Hearnes). He quickly cancelled the series as soon as he had the opportunity. I don't blame MU for not wanting to play the game over the last 20 years or so. SLU would always be more juiced for that game and have a great chance to win, even if the team sucked overall, so you risk losing to a team with a marginal rpi, and it hurts either your chances to get in the tournament or to get a better seed. Illinois made the same assessment in the late 90's when it played SLU at the dome and then had the return game in Champaign. They haven't played since.

The game makes more sense now because SLU appears to be a program which will be a Top 50 rpi team for the next several years. SLU doesn't need the game any more than MU, and it won't have as much of the little engine that could advantage. It would become more like the Braggin' rights game where it is just an event, and the winner doesn't really gain anything over its opponent other than the ability to chirp about the win.

If I was Mike Alden, I would propose a 4 game series wherein games 1 and 3 would be played at the Mizzou Arena, game two at the Scottrade Center and game 4 at the Chaiffetz. SLU wants and seems to need the game way more than MU, so you should be willing to concede a little in order to make it happen.

[billikenfan05]

As a Tiger fan who grew up in St. Louis and still resides here, I will say that I think that MU fans in St. Louis would love to have the game and series against SLU. MU fans from outside of St. Louis don't care about SLU all that much, so the dynamics of the game would favor SLU. SLU;s entire fanbase and student body would be psychotic about the game. I don't think kids who attend MU who grew up in the bootheel or Kansas City or northwest missouri really care that much about playing SLU, so our fanbase (outside of St. Louis) would not be as motivated. I remember when the teams played at the Arena in December of 1979 when Mizzou had Stipo, Larry Drew, Ricky Frazier, Sundvold and several other really good players. That team was in the Top 15 most of the season and it won the Big 8 Title. Injuries and an academic casualty (Steve Wallace ) stripped the team of its depth, but it still made the Sweet 16. When MU played SLU that year, everyone was healthy and no one had flunked out yet. It was one of Norm's best teams at MU. SLU had a team which finished in the lower half of the Metro Conference that year. I believe Norm caught a lot of grief from SLU folks at the promotional lunches and media gatherings, and SLU was jacked up to an unbelievably high level. Mizzou won the game in OT, but SLU should have won the game in regulation. I think that game convinced Norm that there was little to be gained and much to be lost by playing SLU. The return game at the Hearnes Center the following year was a total yawner. Quin had a similar experience in his first three years as MU's coach, wherein SLU had the more motivated team and fan base for each game (even the one played at Hearnes). He quickly cancelled the series as soon as he had the opportunity. I don't blame MU for not wanting to play the game over the last 20 years or so. SLU would always be more juiced for that game and have a great chance to win, even if the team sucked overall, so you risk losing to a team with a marginal rpi, and it hurts either your chances to get in the tournament or to get a better seed. Illinois made the same assessment in the late 90's when it played SLU at the dome and then had the return game in Champaign. They haven't played since.

The game makes more sense now because SLU appears to be a program which will be a Top 50 rpi team for the next several years. SLU doesn't need the game any more than MU, and it won't have as much of the little engine that could advantage. It would become more like the Braggin' rights game where it is just an event, and the winner doesn't really gain anything over its opponent other than the ability to chirp about the win.

If I was Mike Alden, I would propose a 4 game series wherein games 1 and 3 would be played at the Mizzou Arena, game two at the Scottrade Center and game 4 at the Chaiffetz. SLU wants and seems to need the game way more than MU, so you should be willing to concede a little in order to make it happen.

2 and 3 at Chaifetz

[MB73]

Why argue?

SLU cannot really compete, year in and year out, in the long run, with Missouri in basketball: 25,000 undergrads state school, huge athletic budget, superior facilities, Big 12 (SEC), TV package, control the local press (SL Post).

But, much, much more important, Missouri players are not student athletes like ours... MU players take classes like "Biology for non-Science Majors". Fact. It is exclusively for dummie football and basketball players that could not ever get into SLU or if we let them in would not last one semester. Look it up, tigerluke. Deny it?

And there are other courses just like it. Hilarious. Think. "Biology for non Science Majors", they call it.

I personally know a young man who taught this course at MU. It was below high school level biology in his opinion. The real MU students took Biology. For science majors or whatever. He said it was hilarious how stupid the players were.

SLU can't get players like that... we tried to squeeze one in, and he lasted awhile. Big tall athletic guy. He'd still be in Missouri.

There have been years, including this one, that we could beat you. Smarter team oriented players, better coaching. Too bad, it would be fun for both schools. An in-state rivalry.

MU is chickensh*t to not play us, it is just that simple; a bunch of sissies run the show, no win situation for them, they think, cannot risk playing little SLU, 6,000 undergrads.

Now get off our board, tigerluke.

[The Wiz]

First off ...The Bills by 1 over Mizz at the Fetz. And thus we have the crux of the tiger poster argument...they can't take that chance

This thread reminds me of the Tar Baby story. A TB was a doll made out of tar and turpentine. Br'er Rabbit passing by starts a fight with it and throws a punch and gets stuck in the TB. The more he fights it the more entangled he gets. ..Looks like our Mizzou TB has entangled us 8 pages worth.

Well since I am here anyway, I will throw 1 punch and not get entangled.

OK so the Mizzou troll says it is smart thing not to play us. Something about it would ruin everything...things that begin with R...Reputation, RPI, Recruiting, Risk (of losing) and other excuses for not manning up. He says Mike Alden is a wise man (or is that a wise guy) so I guess it makes sense then. They shouldn't do anything that would ruin their "R's". You have won me over. I believe everything you have said.Mizz Luke

Well again, since I am here anyway ...you won't mind if I check a few things...give me another chance because that point spread I put up doesn't look to good for a dominate team like the Tigers.

Hmm...I was going to help you out and get all these nasty SLU posters off your back but you haven't been square with me ...about not ruining your "R's"...not wanting to give up everything and gain nothing.....btw you do realize every single team that has beat us lists that win as a quality win. But I digress....Let's look at the record ...let's look at the teams Mizzou has chosen to play. The teams that will keep your"R's" in place.The ones where you will have a lot to gain and little to lose.

SEMO....D ranked team.....hmm they wouldn't do this in their own backyard..recruiting and all...SEMO must stand for Southeast Montana...yeah that's the ticket

Navy...F ranked...talk about dropping anchor ...this game will definitely get you stuck in the water.

Kennesaw St...another F... and you didn't want to play SLU because???????

William and Mary...F again...Do they even have a basketball team...well yes, if Mary plays

Binghampton...F- -...The 2nd worst team in all Div 1...yes even after their 1st win the other night. Make sure you get Grambling St next year and you will win the Daily Double for playing the 2 worst teams. How can you even come on this board and try to make arguments about not playing SLU. ...have you no shame...no because you are a troll.

Northwestern...B+ ...now you are talking ...good basketball ...Big 10 ...What ??? Oh no...not that one...nevemind....Northwestern St....D ranked...Well at least they are better than Binghampton.

OK I know... You beat a Big East team...Villanova a B team by 10 points. That is good ...in fact almost as good as the 12 point win we had over them.

Well Mizz Luke, you have made your point. What ever you were trying to protect or gain you certainly did it with that OOC schedule. Wouldn't want to mess up a fine schedule like that by adding SLU.

Good luck next year. You think KU is bad wait till UK gets a hold of you. They will shred you on the court and the message boards. No trolls survive on their boards.

[For-DaLove]

First off, I only read like half this thread because the stuff kittylukie was saying was getting so ridiculous it was unbearable.

Secondly, and my final and most important point, ###### Mizzou. This year is proof we don't need them. I'll bet anyone that our program will be in better shape than theirs in 3 years. Frank Haith is one of the worst in game coaches on the planet, and the last KU game was a perfect example of his idiocy. Haith was a zero with Shapiro on his side, I can't wait to see how bad he'll be without a Shapiro.

P.S. - Mizzou, you better hope to god you don't draw us in the tournament. Majerus will make Haith wish he never left Dade county.

Edit: I don't know who's the bigger *****, Tutu or kittylukie.

[slu72]

I don't care about mizzou one way or the other, don't care whether or not we play them. Shouldn't this thread have expired several pages ago ?

This thread should have expired 9 years ago when Mizzery didn't follow up the success of the 3 game series that ended on such a high note for St.L basketball fans. Not a high note from a W standpoint as Stokes got lucky at the end, but it had everyone in the media screaming to make this game an annual event. Needless to say, it never happened.

[Schasz]

What Coach Majerus proposed was a 4 game series with 2 games home and home on each campus and one at Kiel Center (sorry that is what I still know it as) and whatever the Kansas City Arena is called.

He also mentioned that when he was at Utah and they were the big brother team in that state during his stay that they played Weber State and Utah State every year. They even lost some of those games and the world did not end when they did. Mizzou can just continue to be ***** Cats and afraid to play us as far as I am concerned.

[AlumniFan]

I never want to play Missouri. The experiences I have had with their fans are just too unpleasant at and after the games. At the game in Savvis ten or so years ago, several of us asked an obnoxious Mizzou fan to watch his language because our young children where there. He proceeded to threaten me to a fight while I was holding my two year old daughter and his drunk buddies urged him on. He and one of his buddies were promptly thrown out, but not before letting loose at all of us with a stream of cuss words that would have made a sailor blush. And after the dome game, which we won, listening to the profanity directed at SLU fans as we left was just pathetic.

Have fun in the SEC. Go post on a board that is RELEVANT to YOU since you are adamant that no game should be played between SLU and Missouri. (I don't care how polite you are, you yourself have insisted your argument is irrelevant.)

[AlumniFan]

... and not have to worry about whether or not SLU played way over their heads and pulled off a big upset (over Missouri) that might hurt them come Tourney time.

Seriously, tell me how this statement alone is not the height of arrogance (and ignorance)? That's the point about "Missourah" fans -- they are jerks!

[cheesycow]

I know I'm super late to the party and people probably won't like me bumping it but It is shocking how similar this thread is to the back and forth regarding whether or not kU should play mizzou in hoops.

kansas isn't afraid of mizzou, they aren't going to be "ducking" us. They just don't think that they should use the power of their brand to help give recognition to mizzou.

Mizzou's brand is currently(since I know you have to qualify everything on this board) much better than SLU's brand. A Mizzou/SLU matchup would probably be on National TV and raise SLU's perception and relevance to regional recruits. Why should Mizzou help SLU become as big of a program?

[milwaukeebill]

I know I'm super late to the party and people probably won't like me bumping it but It is shocking how similar this thread is to the back and forth regarding whether or not kU should play mizzou in hoops.

kansas isn't afraid of mizzou, they aren't going to be "ducking" us. They just don't think that they should use the power of their brand to help give recognition to mizzou.

Mizzou's brand is currently(since I know you have to qualify everything on this board) much better than SLU's brand. A Mizzou/SLU matchup would probably be on National TV and raise SLU's perception and relevance to regional recruits. Why should Mizzou help SLU become as big of a program?

Ive only been a SLU fan for four years and as much as I would enjoy playing Mizzou, I am already tired of this conversation. I do not care if we play Mizzou.

[Prairie Bill]

... I am already tired of this conversation. I do not care if we play Mizzou.

I have come to feel the same way, and Mizzou has made it clear she doesn't care to date SLU. Fine, that's her decision, don't keep chasing her. Instead, ask someone else for a date.

SLU always competes vigorously with UIUC for undergraduate & professional students, and is again competitive in hoops. Illinois has a new AD and will soon have a new coach, and should be open to new (or renewed) relationships. I think May & Majerus should give them a call.

(This should probably have been a new topic, if anyone seconds the idea, feel free to start one)

[milwaukeebill]

I have come to feel the same way, and Mizzou has made it clear she doesn't care to date SLU. Fine, that's her decision, don't keep chasing her. Instead, ask someone else for a date.

SLU always competes vigorously with UIUC for undergraduate & professional students, and is again competitive in hoops. Illinois has a new AD and will soon have a new coach, and should be open to new (or renewed) relationships. I think May & Majerus should give them a call.

(This should probably have been a new topic, if anyone seconds the idea, feel free to start one)

Im hoping we can take on the kansas rivalry. They lose some pull in STL not playing MIzzou. Lets propose the same setup for KU as we did mizzou. 4 games - one home game each and one "neutral" site that should dramatically favor KU in KC and hopefully would be about 50/50 in STL

[Prairie Bill]

Im hoping we can take on the kansas rivalry. They lose some pull in STL not playing MIzzou. Lets propose the same setup for KU as we did mizzou. 4 games - one home game each and one "neutral" site that should dramatically favor KU in KC and hopefully would be about 50/50 in STL

A nice idea, but would Self go for it? He can pick and choose, and I think he prefers to play serious non-conference opponents in Lawrence. RM might have better luck getting the Duke games he covets.

[AlumniFan]

I know I'm super late to the party and people probably won't like me bumping it but It is shocking how similar this thread is to the back and forth regarding whether or not kU should play mizzou in hoops. kansas isn't afraid of mizzou, they aren't going to be "ducking" us. They just don't think that they should use the power of their brand to help give recognition to mizzou. Mizzou's brand is currently(since I know you have to qualify everything on this board) much better than SLU's brand. A Mizzou/SLU matchup would probably be on National TV and raise SLU's perception and relevance to regional recruits. Why should Mizzou help SLU become as big of a program?

So certainly you will stop playing Illinois as you would not want your beloved "brand", cough, cough, to help Illinois win any of those regional recruits...right?

[ACE]

A thread about this topic has now grown to 14 pages on Bernie's Pressbox. I have never seen a SLU related topic get so much interest on that board. RM is brilliant at working the media. Through Burwell he helped make this a hot topic for debate.

[Billiken Rich]

A nice idea, but would Self go for it? He can pick and choose, and I think he prefers to play serious non-conference opponents in Lawrence. RM might have better luck getting the Duke games he covets.

Didn't Self say something about never playing here ever again after we beat KU at Savvis?